Eclipse Ti vs. Brahma
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=48331
Printed Date: May 01, 2024 at 2:40 PM
Topic: Eclipse Ti vs. Brahma
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Subject: Eclipse Ti vs. Brahma
Date Posted: January 22, 2005 at 5:43 PM
Im pretty much down to those 2 subs for my choice on my next set up. What im looking for is some comparison advise from people that have owned them, or both. Naturally either one i get will be powered with too much power to be shure a clean signal is sent, and i can get both at approx the same price. Which would you choose? Im also open to other sugestions, not JL plz.
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Replies:
Posted By: uthinkuknoaudio
Date Posted: January 22, 2005 at 5:57 PM
Thank god our not for JL.. lol... I love the Eclipse subs, they are great, but the Brahma's are still superior. I have owned both woofers, and the Brahma is my favorite. highly recommended! ------------- "I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.
Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: January 22, 2005 at 6:04 PM
Alpine Guy wrote:
Naturally either one i get will be powered with too much power to be shure a clean signal is sent
How much power will be available? And you are not considering a 1 ohm amp load, right? And how many subs total, one? ------------- Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: January 22, 2005 at 6:18 PM
IM thinking of getting a JBL BPX2200 (2200 wrms) to power the subs, most likely just 1 sub, ,but i'll leave headroom if i change my mind in the future. Definately no more than 2 subs. I was thinking if i can hit the 140's with a type-r, ,i can definately hit the 140's with high sq from a high end sub.
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: January 22, 2005 at 6:56 PM
I was just thinking of the different coil impedances of the two subs you're looking at, the Brahma is 2 ohm DVC, and the Eclipse is 4 ohm DVC. Doing some thinking of how one kind can be used, and you'll still be able to add another.
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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 22, 2005 at 7:10 PM
Since required box size is very small for the Brahma's I'd go for 2 15"s. The 15"s are actually relatively efficient at 87+db. Get 2 and you'll hit ~90db+ with ONE WATT of power. This is a FAR better base for SPL than a single 12" Brahma, which has a 84db efficiency rating. To illustrate to you how much easier the 2 15"s are to drive check out this example: Both sealed boxes ~ .9qtc.
1000watts to the 12" yields around 114db before cabin gain.
1000watts to the 2 15"s (500 each) yields around 120db before cabin gain. The point is, that 6db difference will stay with you no matter what! and is HARD to make up. You'd need 4500 watts to the 12" to catch up to 1000w on the 15"s! ------------- New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: January 22, 2005 at 7:55 PM
the hard part about 15's is getting them to mold nicely into the back side's of my Pathfinder without sticking out too much. I need to keep the center of the back of the truck open for carying stuff around, ,and sleeping. Anything is possible tho haha. Im asumeing the size spec's are on Adire's web site, i'll check out tomorrow to see if i can manage stuffing them in there.
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 22, 2005 at 8:28 PM
Well, even a single 15" Brahma is as efficient as 2 12" Brahmas. Something to think about. :-)
Ouch. Hmm, space IS an issue for you. The 15" actually requires much more space - probably out of the question.
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Lizardking
Date Posted: January 23, 2005 at 12:38 AM
Eclipse TIi's for me I would put a 15pro up agianst anything Brahma!!
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Eclipse "Approaching Perfection"
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: January 23, 2005 at 11:48 AM
ya, but a 15 pro costs about the same as 5 Brahma's
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: Lizardking
Date Posted: January 23, 2005 at 12:27 PM
Quality is expensive no doubt the 15" sells for $800. To make it fair I would put the Ti's series up against the Brahmas. The Ti series can handle insane power and the SQ is unbelievable!!!
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Eclipse "Approaching Perfection"
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 23, 2005 at 2:09 PM
The Eclipse subs are nice. But we do have several advantages over even the TI Pro. First of all we have more linear excursion. Eclipse rates their excursion incorrectly and it is actually limited to around 25mm one way on the Pro. The Brahma is at 29mm. Also, the Eclipse sub uses a standard overhung motor. The Brahma uses our XBL^2 motor which greatly reduces distortion. This means we will have much better SQ, as many who have heard both have testified. The advantages the TI Pro will have is in greater power handling and the ability to push it further without breaking it. So it probably has a higher peak output if you don't care about how it sounds. If you are looking for the best SPL sub of the two, the TI Pro will probably win. However we are revamping our line for 2005 and we will have a new top SQ line available in the Tumult series. They will have 34mm linear one way excursion capabilities and a great deal more power handling abilities. The coil used in it is the same used in our Brahma Extremes which Scottie Johnson uses for SPL competitions. He runs 10 kilowatts per speaker and has never blown a voice coil. So you know they can handle insane power as well.  Good luck with your decision. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: January 23, 2005 at 4:23 PM
How long do i have to wait for the new series subs? Will they be out by march/april?
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: IDS748
Date Posted: January 23, 2005 at 10:54 PM
Darn all this brahama talk makes me wish i didnt buy my jl and bought the shiva instead. Since reading topic it looks like i also maybe investing in a brahma very soon, as soon as the weather is better......I also wanan know if the new adire line will be out soon as good weather isnt too far away!!!
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Alpine CDA-9831
Infinity Perfect 6.1
Alpine MRV-T320
1 JL 12W3V2 D2
PG Tantrum T300.2
Posted By: RattlinRado
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 2:36 PM
I have two Ti 15's (not Pro) being pushed by an Orion 2500d. If the Brahma's have better SQ at high volumes, I just couldn't imagine what they would sound like. I did consider the Brahma's (among others) for my installation. I found the Eclipse Ti's local with warranty for about the same as I would have paid for the Brahma's. That, is what made my decision.
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 3:42 PM
RattlinRado wrote:
I have two Ti 15's (not Pro) being pushed by an Orion 2500d. If the Brahma's have better SQ at high volumes, I just couldn't imagine what they would sound like. I did consider the Brahma's (among others) for my installation. I found the Eclipse Ti's local with warranty for about the same as I would have paid for the Brahma's. That, is what made my decision.
The Eclipse subs are nice. If you are happy, then I wouldn't worry about it. Especially since you couldn't hear the Brahma's first. We do find that people don't like the sound of them. They get used to hearing distortion in their music and aren't used to the "airyness" produced by XBL^2 enabled drivers. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 3:43 PM
Alpine Guy wrote:
How long do i have to wait for the new series subs? Will they be out by march/april?
They should be. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 4:31 PM
OT, but any clues on the TMM extremis kit? (feb?) (3-way?)
;)
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 5:33 PM
kfr01] wrote:
T, but any clues on the TMM extremis kit? (feb?) (3-way?)
;)
We actually aren't the company selling them. We are just supplying the speakers for them. But I did notice some information on Creative Sound Solutions site. Here's the link: https://www.creativesound.ca/ Steven Kephart Adire Aduio -------------
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 6:14 PM
Alright, I'll ask a less pointed question. Did you hear some of the CSS 4.5" and/or Extremis kits at CES? Any listening impressions you care to share?
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: skylark
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 6:54 PM
After reading this topic, I am very curious. I just talked to a Adire dealer and he told me how much two 15 inch Brahma's would cost and after reading this I would like to know how much of a difference would I notice if i went out and bought the Brahma's to replace my 2 15 inch Eclispe Alum running of a jbl 1200 bp1 amp. Now dont get me wrong, I am very happy with the Eclipse and they pound to the point that i get sick. Clean and almost no distortion. So the question is if i bought the Brahmas, would i feel and hear it instantly? Let me know Because the dealer is giving them to me for 500.00 for both brandnew in the box, okay not brand new  Just what was on the sales floor and they was never abused. Besides they were only used for 1 month. Advice will be greatly appreciated. ------------- goingcrazyonsound
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 7:04 PM
kfr01] wrote:
lright, I'll ask a less pointed question. Did you hear some of the CSS 4.5" and/or Extremis kits at CES? Any listening impressions you care to share?
I'm acutally using the CSS 4.5" speakers in my home theater right now. They are taking care of the front speakers right now, but will be moved to the rear when I get some Extremis towers built for myself. As for the subjective side of your question, I will let those who did hear them answer. I know of at least one person around here that heard them at CES. Although I will say that one fun demo I've found to use on the Extremis kits is bass CD's. It really shows how low those 6" mids play; and at a most impressive output.  Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: Lizardking
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 7:47 PM
Remember a Adire guy will tell you his products are better just like any good salesman...LOL
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Eclipse "Approaching Perfection"
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 8:01 PM
Lizardking wrote:
Remember a Adire guy will tell you his products are better just like any good salesman...LOL
Yeah, that's why I didn't offer any subjective information. All I can do is offer the facts as unbiased as possible. When comparing another companies speaker to ours, I try to list their strengths as well. That's why I was hoping those that do have experience would chime in with the subjective side of things. If it helps, I'm not a salesman. I'm just a previous installer at an Adire dealer that was impressed with the company so much I came up here to work for them as the Warehouse Manager and Warranty Technician. And I don't have to claim our speaker is the best. I'll let the Klippel test prove it when we finally get it back. The only complaint Dr. Klippel made about our speaker was a 3% distortion peak at one frequency from a cone resonance. Of course the speaker was moving 11mm one way at the time. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 8:11 PM
Steven, I have to say I can't wait to order the TMM tower kit. I've been surfing all the boards (madisound, diyaudio, etc.) - overall people seem impressed with the value the Extremis offers - some have some funky measurements around 1.6khz, but I have a suspicion some of that is just them not measuring correctly. Anyway, they're ALL impressed with the bass output.
Curious - have you heard those CSS spires?
Now, let me guess who else was at CES. :-) Jeff? Haemphyst?
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 8:34 PM
Yep, Steven's talking about me... I loved them. To be perfectly honest, I was extremely surprised by the CSS - (aka KIT41) they were a very good sounding speaker. I would HIGHLY recommend them as a very high SAF speaker system for a set of rears in a reasonable HT system.
Now, the Extremis system... (aka KIT61) I'm still wet!  Amazing!!! Yeah, if I didn't have over 10 grand in my living room speakers right now, and I was seriously looking for a REALLY nice set of speakers in the sub one thousand range - they'd be the ones. (Personally, I think he is underpricing those things a bit - but they ARE kits, aren't they) The bass from that little speaker was truly astounding. I really did think there was a sub in the room, but there wasn't... granted, the extreme low end (below around 40Hz) was there, but they could perform better with a good external electronic crossover and amplifier for a subwoofer system, but what bookshelf system won't? Remember it is only a 6 inch woofer... I CAN tell you, and while it would, indeed, be overkill for most OTHER people, (the nickname IS haemphyst, after all ) you couldn't buy a better multimedia system - for any amount of money! (Sorry, Steven, but when you build a computer like I do, this is the kind of speaker system one looks for!) The last set of MM speakers I built was a two Morel MW-162's with a Vifa D-26 tweeter in an MTM config, and a 10 inch Aura subwoofer in a TL, so there's the reference...
Seriously, though... EXCELLENT speaker system, and from what I was seeing from the reactions of the people showing up in the room to listen, very well received. One thing I do remember as constant remarks was "WOW!", and "No subwoofer?" ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 8:51 PM
Thanks for the review. I'm curious, what is your current home audio setup like? Is it HT or music focused?
Did you hear in person or hear any rumors about the KIT261? I'm really interested in getting as close to full-range as possible. :-)
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 9:21 PM
My home audio setup is two channel... completely music focused, and largely build with my own two hands. 52 inch BG ribbons, with Titanic 12's in sealed 2.2 cubes. Bi-amped and bi-wired with an Adcom GFA-555 on the Titanics running 125Hz/48dB and down to around an F3 of (if I remember correctly) 28 or 25... The ribbons are on an NAD 218THX, running around 450 watts to each at 125Hz/48dB and up. The electronic crossovers are Marchand XM-16 modules (with upgraded Burr-Brown op amps, Vishay resistors, and polyetheylene capacitors) in separate dedicated copper shielded, solid oak boxes. These are powered by a custom manufactured (by me) ±15 volt @ 1.5 amp power supply, with less than 5mv pk-pk noise and ripple. The cables (and I am not a cable tweakist, but there are benefits to certain geometries) are teflon insulated pairs, random twisted, silver wire that I found at a surplus store for 20 bux (for about 15 pounds of silver wire? I'll take it!). (I used a shielded version of the same wire for all low level signal paths...) The capacitance between positive and negative is (again, if I remember correcly) less than 10 picofarads per foot, and the inductance was unmeasurable by my instruments. The only thing between my speakers and amps is a resistor, for all intents and purposes. The military used that wire for UHF circuit boards, so I guessed it would be good enough for audio frequencies... and it is.
A JVC Pro DVD-Audio player and a (presently broken) JVC Pro S-VHS player provide the signal. The sources are controlled by a Creek OBH-12 Passive pre-amp. No gain stages in the signal path untill the signal reaches the crossover.
Yeah, I'm a freak, I know, but there ya have it!
Umm, I kinda forgot the second question, but no, no rumors or reviews yet...
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 9:41 PM
Wow, thanks for the rundown! Sounds like an awesome system man.
A couple questions, if you don't mind.
Would you go with the Marchland xo if you were building again?
Tell me about the concept of a 'passive pre-amp' if you have time. I haven't heard that term before. Also, you come analog off the JVC? Do you find this component keeps up with the rest of your system?
Thanks man - I'm just starting to catch the home audio bug. :-)
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 11:25 PM
kfr01] wrote:
Steven, I have to say I can't wait to order the TMM tower kit. I've been surfing all the boards (madisound, diyaudio, etc.) - overall people seem impressed with the value the Extremis offers - some have some funky measurements around 1.6khz, but I have a suspicion some of that is just them not measuring correctly. Anyway, they're ALL impressed with the bass output.
A lot of their measurements are off. Plus they are complaining about the wrong things. It becomes obvious because when they actually listen to the speaker their tunes completely change. Also some of them complained that we used a poly cone instead of metal. However they ignore that metal cones have their own issues as well. kfr01] wrote:
urious - have you heard those CSS spires?
I haven't heard the spires. However I did get some good listening time with these: 
Line arrays are the big fad right now. But I really don't like them much. They have some huge lobing problems unless you are listening to them in the far field. And very few people have a HT room big enough to have their listening position in the far field. I would take our least expensive kits over even a $40k+ set of line arrays any day. Of course that's my opinion. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 11:44 PM
haemphyst wrote:
(Personally, I think he is underpricing those things a bit - but they ARE kits, aren't they)
I actually mentioned that to them as well. But they had to put the price based on the retail price of the speakers and other parts otherwise people would just buy the speakers seperate and the crossover parts elsewhere and not buy the kits. BTW Haemphyst, weren't you supposed to e-mail me? Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 24, 2005 at 11:47 PM
kfr01] wrote:
br>Did you hear in person or hear any rumors about the KIT261? I'm really interested in getting as close to full-range as possible. :-)
They are also going to be offering an LCR too. It is similar to the 261 but adding one of the CSS 4's as well. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: January 25, 2005 at 12:21 AM
kfr01] wrote:
Wow, thanks for the rundown! Sounds like an awesome system man.
A couple questions, if you don't mind.
Would you go with the Marchland xo if you were building again?
Absolutely. Phil makes some of the best gear around, and the prices he charges are MORE than fair for the performance. The bang for the buck is very high. His website is www.marchandelec.com
kfr01] wrote:
ell me about the concept of a 'passive pre-amp' if you have time. I haven't heard that term before. Also, you come analog off the JVC? Do you find this component keeps up with the rest of your system?
Thanks man - I'm just starting to catch the home audio bug. :-)
A passive pre-amp is as simple as you can get in high-end audio gear. It really boils down to nothing more than a variable resistor (potentiometer) that is in the signal path between source and amplifier stage. Most pre-amplifiers have supporting circuitry like tone controls or equalization and buffers (small operational amplifiers for impedance and signal matching) with all of their assorted inductors and capacitors. With a simple resistor in the signal path, there is nothing additional to mess with the signal, and it passes from stage to stage with an absolute minimum of modification, certainly a minimum of additional distortions and noises. It becomes considerably more important to match your components carefully. It may take a little while to get it setup just right, but the results are well worth the efforts.
Yeah, the output from the JVC is analog, sadly. I lent my (heavily modified by me, again) 50 disc Pioneer transport and (not modified at all) Audio Alchemy UltraDAC with it's upgraded PS3 to a friend of mine about two years ago. (Those of you familiar with AA will lament the loss of this wonderful company with me... let us please take a moment.) The UltraDAC was rated class B by Stereophile magazine - High marks for a 300 dollar D/A convertor. His CD player went TU, and I said "Here, use this until you get another transport." I guess I won't do THAT again - LOL. Otherwise, yeah, the DVD-A (to HELL with Sony and SACD, which, BTW, stands for "Sony Anti Copy Disc") side does an especially good job, for an analog output, I guess. I am slowly saving for an "Ah, Tjoeb!" transport, and hope to have it within the next few months.
Steven, a couple things...
1: Yeah, I was supposed to e-mail you... look for it in the morning at your work address...
2: I agree with you and the line ARRAY issue, but I certainly hope you don't feel that way about line SOURCES... You are again correct - it is true that unless VERY correctly matched, line arrays can be quite detrimental to proper sound quality. ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: January 25, 2005 at 10:15 PM
Steven, did you get my email today?
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: January 25, 2005 at 10:23 PM
It really boils down to nothing more than a variable resistor (potentiometer) that is in the signal path between source and amplifier stage. I think I'm starting to get this, too. Isn't that the thing that you would put the $450 wooden knob on? lol
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: January 25, 2005 at 10:28 PM
I thought SACD stood for Sadly, Another Crappy Disc format. Line arrays can be furn to build and to play with, but I also agree that they are not the easiest things to LISTEN to. Have you seen the line array projects based on a bunch of 49 cent 2" drivers in a series system without a crossover and made from 6 feet of PVC pipe? Like I said, fun. But for listening, give me a good 2-way system any day. I played around with a Marchand electronic crossover a couple of years ago and found it to be very clean and highly musical. I still prefer well-built passives, though. So tell me more about using a poteniometer as a "passive preamp." I thught something like that is more accurately called an attenuator... or a trim pot... But pre-amp? What am I missing? ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: January 25, 2005 at 11:06 PM
Sadly, Another Crappy Disc - I like that...
Line ARRAYS are nororiously non-musical, with few ecxeptions, but I truly am a fan of line sources. You would LOVE my two way system I think... I can only INAGINE the hell you were put through having to listen to your described line array...
A well executed passive crossover is truly a thing to be savored, but it is really tough to use a passive crossover in a multi-amped system, wouldn't you agree?
Yes. Attenuator is MOST accurate, (because it can only REDUCE the signal coming into it) but because this device, while being completely passive AS FAR AS THE SIGNAL PATH IS CONCERNED, it does have a remote control and switching capabilities. It is widely used in the high-end community that ANY device before the amplifier can be called a pre(before)-amp. Such a device can be active or passive, and will usually contain a signal switching mechanism, which mine does.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 26, 2005 at 12:21 AM
DYohn] wrote:
p>Line arrays can be furn to build and to play with, but I also agree that they are not the easiest things to LISTEN to. Have you seen the line array projects based on a bunch of 49 cent 2" drivers in a series system without a crossover and made from 6 feet of PVC pipe? Like I said, fun. But for listening, give me a good 2-way system any day.
You mean something like this (the tall one)? : https://speakers.sub-optimal.net/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=7 : https://speakers.sub-optimal.net/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=6 We have a local DIY get together at the office every year where everyone brings their projects to show off. Those are pictures of the last one we had. As you can see, some of them are rather creative; some using flower pots as enclosures, etc. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 26, 2005 at 12:29 AM
haemphyst wrote:
Sadly, Another Crappy Disc - I like that...
Line ARRAYS are nororiously non-musical, with few ecxeptions, but I truly am a fan of line sources. You would LOVE my two way system I think... I can only INAGINE the hell you were put through having to listen to your described line array...
I had to double check on the brand today, but we have the exact same planars you have. I haven't heard them yet though. But we do have plans for them. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
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