OT - Home Stereo Hi-Fi - Help Me Plan
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Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=48667
Printed Date: May 19, 2024 at 11:37 PM
Topic: OT - Home Stereo Hi-Fi - Help Me Plan
Posted By: kfr01
Subject: OT - Home Stereo Hi-Fi - Help Me Plan
Date Posted: January 26, 2005 at 5:15 PM
I seem to have caught the home audio bug now too. Please help me plan the system. I'm not so much looking for specific product / brand recommendations as I am looking for priorities and tips about what is BS / what isn't / what works / what doens't. I think I've been able to "take up" a decent amount of this information in the car audio world in a relatively short time period, but home audio seems like an entirely different thing.
Here's my current situation:
Source: Computer running Winamp, m-audio sonica (renamed to transport). Most of my music is encoded in 320kbps after being extracted with EAC and run through error checks. I plan to slowly reconvert the CD's with great quality to begin into a lossless format. I currently use the MAD 24-bit mp3 upconverter plug-in. The sonica passes 24-bit PCM to the
Receiver: Marantz 4200. This is a nice little <$500 ht receiver. It sounds comparatively horrible unless I have it on "source-direct" mode. The bass management circuitry really takes the smoothness out of the music. Everything sounds thin unless source direct is on.
Amplifier: Onkyo Integra M504. This was a recent gift and a great addition to my system. It has far more power than I need given my listening habits. It sounds slightly more smooth than the Marantz's amplifier.
Speakers: Polk RTA 12B loudspeakers. These things are considered "vintage" by polk. They have a 1" top mount, open-baffle tweeter, 2 6" midrange drivers and a 10" passive radiator. Coming from all sat/sub HT systems in the past the nice smooth transition from the midrange to bass is blowing me away. I love it. I bet this is probably the first time I haven't had an appeciable gap from 100-200hz. Also, there's none of the boom I've always heard on my sat/sub systems of the past (all cheap stuff... $300 mtx, $250 CV, $300 polk, etc.) I don't miss the boom one bit. Love it.
Anyway, now that I've caught the bug I'm looking for more. Obviously. Here are my complaints about the current system.
1) While the bass is more smooth and transitions much better than my old sat/sub systems, the bass actually gets a tad sloppy and rolls off a tad earlier than I'd like it to. Example. I hear the bass being plucked on a Diana Krall CD. The bassist is coming down the musical scale. Higher frequency bass is nice and clean - nice fresh notes and plucks. However, as he reaches the lower frequencies the notes start running together and getting quieter. Also, the midrange quality degrades slightly when the drivers are also attempting to produce these lower bass notes.
2) Sometimes the highs are a little too forward for my tastes. They aren't bad at all (by my low standard :-) but sometimes the cymbal just doesn't sound exactly like a cymbal. This was a problem on some cheaper polk bookshelves and some mtx mtms I had from the sat/sub system.
I'd like to stick with a computer based system, knowing that I do plan to re-encode my key collection in some lossless format. The receiver can go, we only watch tv in another room.
It seems logical that the speakers are the first thing to be fixed. The Polks will make a good reference point for me.
I'm thinking about two different options:
1) Bookshelf + Powered subwoofer (obviously of higher quality than I've had in the past, preferably sealed).
2) Full-range (ish) towers. Thinking about trying the Extremis tower kit when it comes out.
Is it necessary to use a subwoofer for stereo listening at moderate volumes? Can the same quality sound be achieved? Better?
Should I consider replacing the receiver with a separate DAC + separate pre-amp? Passive? Active? Tube? (What the hell is the story with Tubes, btw?)
Are those little PCM usb sound devices that put out digital the best bet? Are DACs on sound cards and analog outs better or worse?
I've heard some people say you need a ASIO (or something like that) driver for the best sound in windows. Does anyone know anything about that?
Anyway. I don't have a ton of money, but every once in awhile I can throw a few hundred at a new piece. I'm open to any and all suggestions on strategy / tips / etc.
Oh, I listen to jazz primarily. I have always preferred systems best described as 'warm.' I do, however, put in rock from time to time and listen to a very limited amount of Techno / Electronic. I don't like a system to "wuss out" when asked to do this. :-) That said, I really listen at quite moderate volume levels.
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Replies:
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 12:08 AM
I'm going to use a more pointed question as an excuse to /bump this one time.
Does anyone have any experience with this company: https://www.ciaudio.com/
I am specifically interested in their DAC, PSU, and Passive Pre-amp. Haemphyst? DYohn? any opinions? I can get a decent deal as it seems some of their US distributors are discontinuing the brand. Resale on ebay looks fairly high. Might be worth buying and comparing to my Marantz.
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 12:43 AM
It really sounds like you are going mainly for music. Are you wanting to watch movies with these speakers as well? If no, then I would recommend the Kit 61's using the Extremis. They have some crazy bottom end that should be more than enough for pretty much any music (especially jaz) unless you listen to organ music. The extra mid and enclosure size will help the towers play lower, but it might be a waste on a music-only system. So I'd say save your money and floor space. If you are planning on watching movies as well, then I would recommend the Kit 61's again (of course the larger speakers would be of benifit) and a sub for the deep stuff. A lot of movies out now have some pretty crazy low frequency information to where you need a sub. I'll let others comment on the electronics as that is not my specialty. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: bullman96
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 7:41 AM
if you can design your speakers from scratch, do so. the eton kits sound very good as well with jazz. your sound card will make a huge difference in sq. a good inexpensive one(compared to the pro stuff for a grand or more) is the sound blaster audigy2. sounds amazing for the price. be sure to get the live drive as it has a bunch of great features. the sound blaster live amd original audigy are great as well. i usually dont support the mainstream company as i build my own computers, but creative has been making great cards with consistant quality since they put out the original sound blaster.
i think i still have the sb live with digital and rca out still if you are interested in buying. heres a link to an audigy2, this card will have every input/output you would ever need https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/default.aspx?EDC=541972 you can also get the external drive. unless your a musician, there really is no point in spending any more than that on a sound card. usb isnt the best option.
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 9:17 AM
Are you just guessing at that? I've heard very very differently about USB. I've heard that USB allows you to get the DACs and analog outs off away from the noisy and interferring environment of the PC. Basically the USB is not susceptible to noise or jitter. So this allows you to use a very short length of optical or coax digital very near to an outboard DAC.
I'm not interested in any extra features. Just 2 channel audio. It seems to me like USB is the best solution. In fact, this guy here: https://www.empiricalaudio.com/
claims that his modifed m-audio transits are better than many cd transports when used with lossless audio.
If a PCI based solution really is the best, let me know via some references or facts, please :-) Thanks for your input though! I appreciate the response.
Steven,
You're right - I am looking at this system for 100% music.
On the organ thing. Sometimes I DO listen to organ. Saint Saens Organ Symphony is awesome. Kit 61 still good?
DYohn, Haemphyst, what do you think of those Emperical Audio mods?
Any takers on the ASIO question and or / that company that makes the dacs and passive pres (haemphyst that sounded like a decent idea :-)
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 9:40 AM
I am formulating my very long-winded (as usual) post, and will have all of my opinions for you this evening. Stay tuned, kids!
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 9:50 AM
Awesome - I can't wait!
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Francious70
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 10:19 AM
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/
This site is dedicated to Home Audio/Home Theatre. The have extremely knowledgable people over there, many of who are Elec. Engineers.
Paul
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 11:27 AM
kfr01] wrote:
I seem to have caught the home audio bug now too. Please help me plan the system. I'm not so much looking for specific product / brand recommendations as I am looking for priorities and tips about what is BS / what isn't / what works / what doens't. I think I've been able to "take up" a decent amount of this information in the car audio world in a relatively short time period, but home audio seems like an entirely different thing.
Here's my current situation:
Source: Computer running Winamp, m-audio sonica (renamed to transport). Most of my music is encoded in 320kbps after being extracted with EAC and run through error checks. I plan to slowly reconvert the CD's with great quality to begin into a lossless format. I currently use the MAD 24-bit mp3 upconverter plug-in. The sonica passes 24-bit PCM to the Receiver: Marantz 4200. This is a nice little <$500 ht receiver. It sounds comparatively horrible unless I have it on "source-direct" mode. The bass management circuitry really takes the smoothness out of the music. Everything sounds thin unless source direct is on.
Amplifier: Onkyo Integra M504. This was a recent gift and a great addition to my system. It has far more power than I need given my listening habits. It sounds slightly more smooth than the Marantz's amplifier.
Speakers: Polk RTA 12B loudspeakers. These things are considered "vintage" by polk. They have a 1" top mount, open-baffle tweeter, 2 6" midrange drivers and a 10" passive radiator. Coming from all sat/sub HT systems in the past the nice smooth transition from the midrange to bass is blowing me away. I love it. I bet this is probably the first time I haven't had an appeciable gap from 100-200hz. Also, there's none of the boom I've always heard on my sat/sub systems of the past (all cheap stuff... $300 mtx, $250 CV, $300 polk, etc.) I don't miss the boom one bit. Love it.
First off, if it is possible, (and as far as space is concerned, it should be possible - space being the cheapest thing in a computer today) try re-extracting the MP3's you have RIGHT TO the lossless format of choice. Once the information is gone, you cannot recover it, and that being the case, you might as well listen to the MP3's you already have. An additional conversion at this stage can only hurt the music you already have. My choice, BTW, is flac. I like the flac for two reasons... 1)it is free and 2) when you install the front-end, it adds the plug-in to winamp, so you can keep the really cool interface. (I just re-read your opening post - forget almost everything I just said  )
Secondly, anytime you can remove active electronics from the signal path, there will be sonic benefits, which is what I think the "source direct" does. The Onkyo amplifier probably affects the way the speakers sound in more ways than one - first off, more real power, and secondly (and I'll likely be mocked here) better damping.
kfr01] wrote:
nyway, now that I've caught the bug I'm looking for more. Obviously. Here are my complaints about the current system.
1) While the bass is more smooth and transitions much better than my old sat/sub systems, the bass actually gets a tad sloppy and rolls off a tad earlier than I'd like it to. Example. I hear the bass being plucked on a Diana Krall CD. The bassist is coming down the musical scale. Higher frequency bass is nice and clean - nice fresh notes and plucks. However, as he reaches the lower frequencies the notes start running together and getting quieter. Also, the midrange quality degrades slightly when the drivers are also attempting to produce these lower bass notes.
2) Sometimes the highs are a little too forward for my tastes. They aren't bad at all (by my low standard :-) but sometimes the cymbal just doesn't sound exactly like a cymbal. This was a problem on some cheaper polk bookshelves and some mtx mtms I had from the sat/sub system.
The issues you describe are not completely uncommon for a PR type of system (especially what might be called a poorly tuned PR system), or for Polks, in general. Never having been a fan of Polk Audio, so I have not had first hand experience with these particular speakers. A really nice replacement for those would likely be the Extremis kit, which I think Steven has mentioned. They really are a very good sounding system, and would work exceptionally well with the power available from your Onkyo - a piece of gear that I always thought for the money was a spectacular buy...
kfr01] wrote:
'd like to stick with a computer based system, knowing that I do plan to re-encode my key collection in some lossless format. The receiver can go, we only watch tv in another room.
It seems logical that the speakers are the first thing to be fixed. The Polks will make a good reference point for me.
And why not... The M-Audio sound card you have is a fine piece of electronics. Very good specs. You are right, also, in the assumption that you need to address the speakers first. The speakers are ALWAYS the weak link in the audio chain, and they're what you listen to, for Pete's sake!
kfr01] wrote:
'm thinking about two different options:
1) Bookshelf + Powered subwoofer (obviously of higher quality than I've had in the past, preferably sealed).
2) Full-range (ish) towers. Thinking about trying the Extremis tower kit when it comes out.
Is it necessary to use a subwoofer for stereo listening at moderate volumes? Can the same quality sound be achieved? Better?
Should I consider replacing the receiver with a separate DAC + separate pre-amp? Passive? Active? Tube? (What the hell is the story with Tubes, btw?)
Are those little PCM usb sound devices that put out digital the best bet? Are DACs on sound cards and analog outs better or worse?
I've heard some people say you need a ASIO (or something like that) driver for the best sound in windows. Does anyone know anything about that?
Anyway. I don't have a ton of money, but every once in awhile I can throw a few hundred at a new piece. I'm open to any and all suggestions on strategy / tips / etc.
Oh, I listen to jazz primarily. I have always preferred systems best described as 'warm.' I do, however, put in rock from time to time and listen to a very limited amount of Techno / Electronic. I don't like a system to "wuss out" when asked to do this. :-) That said, I really listen at quite moderate volume levels.
If you go with the bookshelf + sub system (an excellent choice, with reasonable SAF, usually), try to locate a sub that has it's own hi-pass AND lo-pass crossover - not just a lo-pass. If powered, it can be line level, to feed your Onkyo. I recommend this to gain better integration between the sub a satellites, without overlap - a bad thing, in my humble opinion. Also, if you can get a sub with phase control, this will help with the integration as well. Adire has a great amp for a DIY subwoofers, and save the output for the external amp, it does everything you could need. It does have very nice EQ and crossover flexibility, though, so I am sure it would work with your system really well. You could even (if necessary) add a pair of Harrison Labs F-Mods to the signal path of your highs (into the Onkyo), to avoid wasting power that you really won't be using. This path WILL necessitate some experimentation, so be ready for it!
Any system can benefit from a quality subwoofer!
Separates will give FAR better flexibility, as you can choose the device with the options that work best for you. Honestly though, Being as you are planning on listening to compressed music, save the cash on the external DAC - you won't gain anything - the information you would be trying to squeeze out of the signal is gone already, remember? A really good active component will be FAR more expensive than something along the lines of the Creek OBH-12 (replaced with the OBH-22. These'll run in the 300 to 400 dollar range, and are really nice performers for the money. All of the Creek components are available in the US at Music Hall Audio. Tubes? The best sound around, but expensive, relative to solid-state. Stick with good solid-state (and you already have a start there), and you'll be happy...
I use a Phillips PSC805 Aurillium on my laptop, for listening, capture, AND diagnostics functions. It is a GREAT soundcard, and believe it or not, the software included with it is a pretty good product as well... Stable, at a minimum. Real world speaking, you probably wont be able to tell the difference between a good soundcard's analog and a decent external DAC. It MIGHT be possile for you to still find an Aurillium at CompUSA or Fry's. I got mine for 47 bux! It was a 129.00 soundcard. It's not on the CompUSA website anymore, but it is a good enough soundcard, that it might be worth the trip...
The ASIO driver for windows does not really look like anything you are going to need. You are not doing signal processing, just listening to music. Here is a website to describe the function of it...
kfr01] wrote:
Are you just guessing at that? I've heard very very differently about USB. I've heard that USB allows you to get the DACs and analog outs off away from the noisy and interferring environment of the PC. Basically the USB is not susceptible to noise or jitter. So this allows you to use a very short length of optical or coax digital very near to an outboard DAC.
I'm not interested in any extra features. Just 2 channel audio. It seems to me like USB is the best solution. In fact, this guy here: https://www.empiricalaudio.com/
claims that his modifed m-audio transits are better than many cd transports when used with lossless audio.
If a PCI based solution really is the best, let me know via some references or facts, please :-) Thanks for your input though! I appreciate the response.
Stick with the USB solution. It is true that a PC case is a noisy place, electrically speaking, and you are correct that removing it from that environment can help.
kfr01] wrote:
teven,
You're right - I am looking at this system for 100% music.
On the organ thing. Sometimes I DO listen to organ. Saint Saens Organ Symphony is awesome. Kit 61 still good?
DYohn, Haemphyst, what do you think of those Emperical Audio mods?
Any takers on the ASIO question and or / that company that makes the dacs and passive pres (haemphyst that sounded like a decent idea :-)
As far as listening to organ (and this instrument specifically) a good sub will indeed "flesh-out" the bottom end of any audio system. Please see my previous post... But yes, the KIT-61 would serve you nicely.
The ciaudio stuff looks pretty, but I bet you pay for that pretty face! Creek and Phil Marchand will give you any of those components for probably less money. I realy do not know, as I have never seen ciaudio anywhere. They are within a couple hours drive of my house, I should go look at the stuff... I don't REALLY like to form an opinion without knowing what I am opining about...
I really do like my passive pre-amp. The creek does have switching functions, just like the ciaudio, but it also has remote control, something not even available with the ciaudio.
BTW, kfr01, are you in SoCal, or where? I would like to get you to Bakersfield to hear my system, and the big brother of it at another friends' house. His makes mine look like a Tonka Toy... ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: bullman96
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 2:01 PM
the reason i say to stay away from usb is that on most computers the usb ports are close to the fan and power box which are the main 2 things in a computer that will create interference. with a card, you can move the rest of your cards all the way to the top of the motherboard and put the sound card in the bottom slot.
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: January 27, 2005 at 3:12 PM
Haemphyst, first, let me say thanks for the great input. I'm preparing a response with some follow-up questions, but need to get to a meeting.
Second, quickly, I found here: https://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/rh5.htm
that one of the guys involved in Audio Alchemy started CI Audio with some of the same strategies. (Great products for the price). Anyway, the DAC + Upgrades PSU retail for $450 currently.
I'll be back :-)
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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 02, 2005 at 1:03 PM
Thanks so much for the reply. Sorry for the slow response. I've been working like mad lately. Getting a few hours of sleep has taken priority over posting on lengthy replies. Finally I have a bit of a breather today...
1. Alright. First question. I read conflicting information all over the web regarding whether 2 subs are better than one in a stereo system (not HT). It would seem to me that it makes sense to use 2 unless you have a steep xo point below 80hz (that's where bass starts losing it directivity, right?).
2. Ever since my recent enlightenment regarding the benefits of the 'shortest path' I've been trying to think of how to best design my system around that goal. On that note, do the speaker outputs of those subwoofer plate amps degrade the sound quality?
3. I've been thinking about trying one of those passive pre-amps. Do you know if the Creek OBH-10 was built to the same quality as the OBH-12? I know it doesn't have the switching feature, but I don't anticipate needing that.
4. I've been thinking about moving to an RME-Audio card with analog outs. Reviews have said the DACS + Analog outs on these cards rival most very expensive external DAC solutions. My question is this: if I go passive, do I need to concern myself with some sort of output spec (voltage, resistance, etc.) to ensure that I don't need the gain that an active pre provides?
5. Here's my "realistic goal" system right now. It will have to be a work in progress, but let me know what you think:
RME Analog outs --> Creek OBH-10 ---> Marchland 48/db 2-way xo @ 70hz --->
1) plate amplifier ---> (sub) Creative Sound w/ Adire's XBL^2 technology 10"
2) Integra amp ---> Kit61
6. With a 48db xo at 70hz it would seem reasonable to seal the Kit61 because of the great extension the extremis provides. The low xo point the extremis can handle, combined with the 48db octave slope should allow me to run a single subwoofer successfully, right? Am I mistaken here? I've always liked the sound of sealed speakers better.
7. On that note. In your opinion, would it be better to seal the subwoofer, then with a plate amp provide a gentle low freq. parametric eq boost around 25-30hz, or port the subwoofer?
Thanks again! -- Oh, I'm located in good old Iowa, quite a distance from so-cal. ------------- New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: February 02, 2005 at 1:33 PM
kfr01] wrote:
p>6. With a 48db xo at 70hz it would seem reasonable to seal the Kit61 because of the great extension the extremis provides. The low xo point the extremis can handle, combined with the 48db octave slope should allow me to run a single subwoofer successfully, right? Am I mistaken here? I've always liked the sound of sealed speakers better.
The extremis mid is more designed to work in a ported enclosure. In a sealed application you are only going to get response down to the 65 Hz range. This means you aren't really going to take advantage of the huge excursion it has available. It will allow you to play the mids at a higher volume level without breaking up, but that really wasn't an issue anyway given my experiences with these speakers thus far. I'd recommend porting the mids and running a single sub crossed over at say 30 Hz and down. This way you won't have to worry about soundstage issues as the front speakers will be taking care of any directional content. This will also allow you to design the sub for a smaller bandwidth, narrowing your options. Although the CSS 10 is a great performer, I don't think it would be the right choice for my suggestions above. I'd recommend a sub that will play down deep (low Fs and long excursion) in a tiny enclosure. According to Hoffmans Iron Law, this means you are going to need some power to run it and an amp with a good parameteric EQ. Just don't be surprised if you need a 600+ watt amp. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 02, 2005 at 2:30 PM
Steven, Tumult w/ ADA1200 more what you're thinking for me? An extra $1k bumps up the cost to this little system - I guess the Tumult and ADA1200 would be fit to make a long haul though. In the interest of saving money, with that low of a xo (~30hz) point, you're right - I wouldn't have the stereo image issues - even with a 2-4 order xo. Your ADA amps don't have a high pass out either via low or high level, right? Does anyone know of a cheap(er) than Marchand xo that would sound great for crossing mains over to a subwoofer at ~35hz? A DIY solution even? I'm assuming y-cables won't do the trick. What kind of effect on sound quality would y-cables have in the chain? On the ADA, any chance your engineering boys could throw on a fixed frequency 24db high pass pair of pre-outs for an extra $200 or so? ;-) Thanks! ------------- New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: February 02, 2005 at 5:17 PM
Well I was actually thinking a 12" Tumult when they finally come out. Either that or a Brahma 10 in a 1 cubic foot sealed enclosure But I figured the ADA amp might have more capability than you need. So if someone else offered a decent plate amp with a single eq, that would work fine as well. It would probably also save you some money. How large of an enclosure are you willing to go? Remember, the larger the better for low frequency extention. It will be much easier on the subwoofer, amplifier, and system. We do have a high pass filter on the ADA amplifier. It is 4th order set at like 2 Hz (disabled). It is designed as a ruble filter that we could add for a customer. I talked to one of our amplifier engineers and he said that it would cost a lot of money to add the outputs with crossover functionality like you want. But he said the best thing to do is buy a car crossover and a wall wart to power it. That's what he did for a while. His is an a/d/s/ unit that he is trying to sell right now.  Using a Y-adapter shouldn't effect anything. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 02, 2005 at 5:36 PM
Tumult 12", huh, interesting. :-) On the enclosure.. I could live with anything less than 3ft^3. I don't need an ultra small box. Thanks for checking on the high pass filter for me. Also, how do you feel about running the Tempest instead - in the name of sound quality would I really miss the XBL technology? Thanks! ------------- New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: February 02, 2005 at 6:17 PM
kfr01] wrote:
Thanks so much for the reply. Sorry for the slow response. I've been working like mad lately. Getting a few hours of sleep has taken priority over posting on lengthy replies. Finally I have a bit of a breather today...
Not a problem... believe me, I know how that can happen sometimes.
kfr01] wrote:
p>1. Alright. First question. I read conflicting information all over the web regarding whether 2 subs are better than one in a stereo system (not HT). It would seem to me that it makes sense to use 2 unless you have a steep xo point below 80hz (that's where bass starts losing it directivity, right?).
I am here to tell you from experience that there IS stereo information below 80Hz. It is true, however, that the size of the room, as well as the distance FROM the subwoofer will directly determine the stereo effect you will receive from this information. In most rooms, one sub will suffice. However, this being said, the question arises - How much do you like your bass? Are you willing to fill two corners with large boxes? An additional benefit to using two drivers (or subwoofer systems) for the same output, your driver cone will be moving HALF AS FAR as one driver cone would by itself - this translates to a more linear (twice as linear) bass response, with less (half as much) intermodulation distortion - "IMD" or "Doppler distortions". At regular listening levels, this MAY OR MAY NOT come to be an important fact - it really is determined by what you consider normal listening volumes. TECHNICALLY, bass starts losing directivity where the wavelength EQUALS the distance between your ears - literally. So it may be different for you than it is for me.
kfr01] wrote:
p>2. Ever since my recent enlightenment regarding the benefits of the 'shortest path' I've been trying to think of how to best design my system around that goal. On that note, do the speaker outputs of those subwoofer plate amps degrade the sound quality?
That's a loaded question with no clear-cut answer. How good are they? Do they clip on the speaker wire, or can you crank a big ol' thumbscrew down on 'em? Obviously the preferred answer is the second one... Honestly, though, I don't really use plate amps. I bi-wire and usually bi-amp all of my systems. Never have I used a plate amp, although I cannot see how they would be REALLY detrimental to the signal path... If I were to do a plate-amp type of setup, I would look first to Bryston. They make some of the most AWESOME amplifiers I have ever heard, and the power they can make is second to none. Look into the power-pac amps they have. Last time I checked they were pretty reasonable, especially considering their power capabilities. Using the Bryston gear will absolutely necessitate an external crossover, as these amps have NO signal processing capabilities on their own.
kfr01] wrote:
p>3. I've been thinking about trying one of those passive pre-amps. Do you know if the Creek OBH-10 was built to the same quality as the OBH-12? I know it doesn't have the switching feature, but I don't anticipate needing that.
Never having had hands-on experience with the OBH-10, I cannot say, but knowing that they use the same potentiometers in all of their passive components, I would guess "yes" - in respect to sound quality. If all you are going to EVER use is one source, go for it - use the OBH-10. HOWEVER, I like having an upgrade path, and the difference in price would probably be worth this forward thinking path. If you are like me, you'll ALWAYS be wanting another component, sooner or later <grin>
kfr01] wrote:
p>4. I've been thinking about moving to an RME-Audio card with analog outs. Reviews have said the DACS + Analog outs on these cards rival most very expensive external DAC solutions. My question is this: if I go passive, do I need to concern myself with some sort of output spec (voltage, resistance, etc.) to ensure that I don't need the gain that an active pre provides?
If I am not mistaken, the input impedance on the OBH stuff is around 10K, so the load would be no issue. As long as your output voltage on the soundcard is at least 500 to 750mv, you should have no issue driving pretty much any home amp out there. Obviously, the higher your output voltage, the better you S/N ratio would likely be, so higher would be better in this case...
kfr01] wrote:
p>5. Here's my "realistic goal" system right now. It will have to be a work in progress, but let me know what you think:
RME Analog outs --> Creek OBH-10 ---> Marchland 48/db 2-way xo @ 70hz --->
1) plate amplifier ---> (sub) Creative Sound w/ Adire's XBL^2 technology 10"
2) Integra amp ---> Kit61
When I get home tonight, I'll dig up the various alignments I did last night for the Extremis 6.8. I did an optimum alignment for both sealed and vented as well as a custom alignment for sealed and vented. If I am not mistaken the sealed optimum landed right around 9 to 11 liters or so, with an F3 of 63Hz or possibly 73Hz. Either of these numbers would put you right in the neighborhood of what you are looking to do. The Marchand XM-16 crossover DOES come in a DIY configuration, for WAY less money than the full blown toy. If you are planning on leaving it a fixed XO point, and are not really worried about the damping option, this is a great way to save a few dollars!
:::::::EDIT:::::::
Optimum closed box, as per JBL Speakershop:
7.81 Liters
No stuffing
Qtc .707
F3 68.8Hz
Fc 68.7Hz
And the XM-16-A is only 80 dollars per side... then you can put them in YOUR desired enclosure, like I did...
:::::::END EDIT:::::::
kfr01] wrote:
p>6. With a 48db xo at 70hz it would seem reasonable to seal the Kit61 because of the great extension the extremis provides. The low xo point the extremis can handle, combined with the 48db octave slope should allow me to run a single subwoofer successfully, right? Am I mistaken here? I've always liked the sound of sealed speakers better.
I also prefer sealed enclosures. (with the possible exceptions of a transmission line subwoofer) I would say yes, you are right on track with what you are looking to do. I am pretty sure the Extremis would like a sealed enclosure - JBL Speakershop said it would, and I've been pretty lucky taking it's word up until now...
kfr01] wrote:
p>7. On that note. In your opinion, would it be better to seal the subwoofer, then with a plate amp provide a gentle low freq. parametric eq boost around 25-30hz, or port the subwoofer?
It's really the same thing - an EQ curve. The sealed route requires more amplifier power, because the eq is before the amp, and the driver will take a little more abuse. The vented route is "free" output. It is an acoustic EQ. I say "free" because you will trade off a few things - damping, extension, and transient response...
kfr01] wrote:
p>Thanks again! -- Oh, I'm located in good old Iowa, quite a distance from so-cal.
OK, well so much for THAT idea... LOL ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: February 02, 2005 at 8:43 PM
kfr01] wrote:
p>Tumult 12", huh, interesting. :-)On the enclosure.. I could live with anything less than 3ft^3. I don't need an ultra small box. Thanks for checking on the high pass filter for me. Also, how do you feel about running the Tempest instead - in the name of sound quality would I really miss the XBL technology? Thanks!
Ah, I was under the impression that we were going as small as possible. That is good to hear. Then actually the CSS 10 would probably work just fine. Although since you can go with a little larger enclosure, then I would recommend going with a 12 or even a 15. The Tempest is a great budget sub. It has awesome sound and performance, especially for the price. But I am hooked on the XBL^2 sound. It's like what high definition is to tv IMO. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 04, 2005 at 8:13 AM
Haemphyst:
Thanks again, I'll post more this afternoon, I'm learning more from you here than I would in weeks of browsing. :-)
Steven:
Have you heard the SX10 in the passive radiator alignment that CSS sells? If so, how does XBL^2 + PR alignment sound?
Thanks!
-------------
New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: February 04, 2005 at 11:37 AM
Unfortunately no I haven't. But I do have one of his Clarus subs at home for my small system. It is a great little performer. But I haven't tested it on the really low stuff as I live in an apartment. I do have some good listening time to XBL^2 ported in our Sadhara sub. But I haven't heard a PR alignment with one yet. I can't see it being much different though. The Sadhara is one of my favorite subwoofers for movies. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
Posted By: kfr01
Date Posted: February 04, 2005 at 2:12 PM
Steven Kephart wrote:
I do have some good listening time to XBL^2 ported in our Sadhara sub. But I haven't heard a PR alignment with one yet. I can't see it being much different though. The Sadhara is one of my favorite subwoofers for movies.
Inclusion unius est exclusio alterius. You're saying it isn't one of your favorite for music though, right? :-) ------------- New Project: 2003 Pathfinder
Posted By: stevdart
Date Posted: February 04, 2005 at 2:28 PM
Inclusion unius est exclusio alterius. Damn lawyers.
-------------
Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: February 04, 2005 at 3:39 PM
kfr01] wrote:
p>Steven Kephart wrote:
I do have some good listening time to XBL^2 ported in our Sadhara sub. But I haven't heard a PR alignment with one yet. I can't see it being much different though. The Sadhara is one of my favorite subwoofers for movies.
Inclusion unius est exclusio alterius. You're saying it isn't one of your favorite for music though, right? :-)
Oh no, not at all. I just have more listening time with movies. I was more commenting that it has some awesome, deep bass that is perfect for movies. But the distortion free performance works great for music as well. Steven Kephart Adire Audio -------------
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