Which 6 1/2's should I get

Hello all.

I'm lookin at some Eclipse 6 1/2's, model SE8363, which is last year's model, and also some Infinity Reference 6002i 6 1/2's.  Which one of these is better?

I'm getting a Phoenix Gold Octane-R5.0:4 amp to run them on, which is 50 watts per channel RMS.  I'll probably run them highpassed to keep out low bass, so frequency response probably won't matter much, cause I know that Eclipse has a frequency response of 90Hz and up.  It's just for mids and highs cause I have a sub to cover the lows that I'm gonna run on the rear channels of the amp bridged.

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slave2bass

Sounds like you have a nice start to a system.

As for the speakers. You REALLY need to make that determination for yourself.

I personally like the sound of those Eclipse's better than the Irefs, but you need to take your music in and listen.

If you've done this already, share your thoughts? Why can't you decide?

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Better yet do you know anyone with them in their car? Remember that what you hear on a demo wall will not be the same as in your car. IMO get the Eclipse.

I would say go with the Eclipse, but it really should be which one sounds the best to you.

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I highly recommend getting a PG Xenon amp instead of the Octane R. I jsut got rid of my Octane R for a Xenon and there is a HUGE difference in them. you can get the Xenon 100.4 and that should be more than enough for you.

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Eclipse 5435
US Amps Merlin MD2 x 2
US Amps Merlin MD42
Kicker Solo X 18"
MB Quart QSD216 x 2

As far as the speakers, I would check out the infinity Kappa's. They are a great sounding speaker and in my opinion blow away the Eclipse's and the infinity ref.

  Chris

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Alpine CDA-9833 HU
Diamond Audio M661 Components
MTX Thunder T6.6 Components:rear fill:
Cadence Q400 4 Channel Mains + rears
Thunder 801D Subs
MTX 1004 10's
Dual 4g wire to rear
4g grounds

Wow, thanks for all the replies.  One guy asked why can't I decide, and I'll tell you what I know so far.

I did listen to both speakers in the shop with my music CD's and I have a friend who has Infinity Reference front and rear in a newer model Dodge Dakota that I also listened to.  Sad fact is, I did not like the Reference sound that much in his truck, but he said it must be because he did not mount them in the factory openings.  Instead, he cut out the factory molded in grill and surface mounted the speakers in where they came out using the grills the speakers came with to cover them.  In the front doors, this actually caused the speakers to be aiming at the floor and towards the dash just slightly cause of the way the door trim is made, but it's no where near aiming up at the listener's ears for sure.  He did that cause he figured that if he put them in where the factory speakers came out then he wouldn't hear them as much cause it was over an inch, almost two inches, from speaker to factory grill and he said they would be like being down in a hole.  His rear speakers sounded pretty good, they are up higher near your head, but I wasn't impressed really.  They were kinda clear, but it was hard to tell while listening to only them(front faded out) cause I had one on each side of me like headphones and I couldn't really get a sense of a stage being created like I'm looking for. 

Now on the board at the shop, they sounded OK, but still didn't beat the Eclipse.  The Eclipse sound was awesome.  But I'm skeptical of it cause I heard them running on a deck only, no amp, and they only hold 40 watts RMS, plus they are really shallow, 1 7/8 inches deep.  I have Sony Xplod speakers now that are 1 3/4 inches deep  and also only handle 40 watts RMS and they distort awful on bass.  Eclipse didn't do that, but on an amp how will they do?  I was thinking that the Infinity with it's oversized cones and deeper frame wouldn't do that.   I considered the Kappa's but my same friend also had ordered a set of them when he got one set of Reference, and he said they were like having supertweeters hooked up with no bass at all.  They were too bright.  This is also what I've heard from other people too.

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slave2bass

You have a subwoofer, right?

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

I forgot to say though that I did not get to hear those Kappas before he sold them on ebay and bought more References.  No shops around here sell them either.  I cannot hear them before buying. 

One more to throw into the mix, what does anyone think of the Phoenix Gold Octane 6 1/2's, coaxial or component?  Cannot listen to them either, no one has them, but they look good, if that counts.

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slave2bass

Didn't see you there.  Yeah, I have an 8" Kicker in a sealed box.  Single cab truck.

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slave2bass

Are you thinking that it won't matter on bass for the 6 1/2's cause of the sub?  I was too.  What about midbass though?  I don't know that much about what frequencies are for what instruments.  I just know that the 6 1/2's distort on like 100Hz or lower with the volume on about 12-14.  It's a pioneer deck and I have the bass set at +2.

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slave2bass

Go with the Eclipse speakers if you like them. You shouldn't have any problems with them bottoming out as long as you don't try to make them play bass really loud. If you have an amp for them just turn on the high pass filter at around 80 hz.

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When you buy your amplifier you'll use a high pass filter at 80-100hz. Like custom said, this will eliminate the bottoming out and dramatically increase the power handling. Your subwoofer is probably already set to a 80-100hz low pass. Your transition should be fine, although you're right, getting the sub bass-midbass-midrange transition correct is one of the largest challenges in SQ focused car audio, in my opinion. All I can say is that all 6.5" component speakers are challenging to implement in the midbass region. If you really get into this wonderful hobby many folks eventually upgrade to dedicated midbass drivers. I say buy the best sounding speakers to your ears in the midrange for now. Forget about the bass and midbass right now, you won't be able to evaluate that until you hear them installed in your car, with your high pass crossover, integrated with your subwoofer.

On that note, I don't like comparing speakers in other drivers' cars. You've already pointed out why. Most people do substandard install jobs on main speakers. You end up comparing the range of installs more than the speakers themselves.

If you liked the Eclipse's the best on the wall, go for them. Take care installing them. Set the amplifier crossover and gains with some brains, and you'll probably have a great sounding system.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

OK, cool.  The amp I chose has independant variable crossovers for the front and rear channels both.  That's why I picked it, plus the power output of 50 watts RMS per channel.  Just seemed like a nice round number that would work with most speakers without being too much.  Cause I knew the amp had the features I'm looking for, but still didn't know what speakers I'd get, I didn't want to limit my choices.  So, I'll be able to play with the crossover frequency to see what sounds best.  Since the sub will be running bridged on the rear channels of the same amp, and it has the same crossover for it too, then I can just set it where the front channel crossover leaves off.  It will be pushing 150 watts RMS to the 8" sub.  I already ordered and paid for the amp.  It's being shipped as we speak. 

I've just about convinced myself that the Eclipses are the ones I want.  I've made several trips out to listen to the Infinity speakers in the shop, and each time I was not satisfied.  I think I'd do well to forget them and just move on.  I just keep remembering how sweet the Eclipses sounded anyway, so crisp on the highs, but not too bright, and the mids weren't too fat either, just right and enough to fill the air,  and also they were suprisingly bassy for having a frequency response of 90Hz and up.  Their sensitivity is kinda high at 96dB, so even the lower frequencies are probably coming in at a higher dB range than on other speakers that would be 90Hz and up frequency respondant.  Considering dB/octave slope and all that is.  I was just kinda worried about them bottoming out cause of being so shallow, but if I cross them over at 80Hz or 100Hz, then it probably won't do that.  Mids won't be moving the cone like low bass would anyway, right?  I think that's what I'm doing, is getting the Eclipses while I still can.  Last year's model is the one I want cause of the grills being solid.

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slave2bass

Thanks again for all your advice.

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slave2bass

Great.  The amplifier sounds like a good choice.

Also, bottoming out has nothing to do with the depth of the speaker.  Different manufactuers use different magnet and basket designs.  Don't read anything more into that. 

Bottoming out happens when the speakers are asked to move to overexcursion.  i.e. moving the cone to extremes.  This rarely has anything to do with the depth of the speaker and more to do with what you cannot see inside the speaker motor. 

Don't worry about the bottoming out.  Play with the crossover, set the gains with some brains, and know the limits of your system when showing off and you'll be fine. 

That said, pay attention to your install.  Since you seem to care about SQ here are a few tips: 

1) Dynamat at least the metal surface your speaker will be attached to.  I think Raammat is the best value in damping material.

2) Use a foam gasket with the back cut out or foam gasketing tape to ensure a good seal. 

3) I've had success using some Cascade Audio deflex panels behind midrange speakers to further dampen and kill backwave

4) Keep the tweeter within inches of the woofer

5) Aim the tweeter at your ears as much as possible

Good luck!   Please let us know how they turn out or if you have any other questions.

edit: those tips were in no particular order.  I'm not really sure why I numbered them.  On that note, time for sleep.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

They're called Adire Extremis 6.8

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

Well I ordered those Eclipses today.  They'll be here in about a week. 

I was thinkig about using baffles behind them, like Crutchfield sells, to give them an enclosure.  I heard it would increase midrange output if I did that. 

Also, I'm putting them in where I have already installed 6 1/2's before.  I'm just replacing the ones I have cause I don't like them.  But they are not mounted to metal, they are mounted to the plastic door molding.  The metal was not made to hold a speaker and it would have taken a LOT of fabrication to make it do that so I just put them on the plastic instead.  Occasionally, I get a resonating sound from the doors, and I've discovered that if I push on the door panel when I hear it, it will quieten down some, but not all the way.  I was wondering if I put dynamat or something on the back of that plastic panel if it would help?  Or put it on the metal itself, even though the speaker is attached to the plastic? 

Also this resonating sound is centered around the 80-100Hz range.  If I turn down bass or change the frequency to a higher freq. then it gets better.  So the amp highpassing them may help it some, and plus them being different speakers, it might not do it the same way anyway.

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slave2bass