SQ Subs

I'm looking for something that can produce a really high level of sound quality and can get fairly powerful in a single sub or dual sub setup. (1000wRMS will probably be sufficient, might not mind going up to 1500wRMS). I have personally heard a 13w7 in a ported box, and well, I entirely loved the quality I heard. I'd probably be looking to go sealed and am not sure how'd that work with that sub. Ontop of that, well, locally that thing is freaking over $800 and that's hefty right now. Just wanting to get option of decent comparable to search out and here. Trying to keep a smaller price tag, but I also don't wanna lose a serious amount of quality doing so.

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1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm

Well, Adire's 12" Tumult will probably retail around $600 when it comes out. The sound quality from Adire's XBL woofers is really excellent. This will be a strong competitor against the JL.

https://www.adireaudio.com/Mobile/TumultSeries.htm

The Brahma series will give similar sound quality, but has less excursion and handles less power. That said, you'll be able to get 2 Brahma 12"s for less than $800. Sound quality will be comparable.

Anyway, I'm not sure if you've heard an Adire XBL2 enabled sub or not, but the ones I've listened to have turned me into a believer. Clean and fast bass. I'll probably be picking up a single Brahma 10 or 12 for sound quality listening when the new line hits dealers.

Having said all that, I'd also check out offerings from Eclipse and Image Dynamics.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

SQ+Subs= JL W7(any size)

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Tell the Snap-On guy I'm not here!

From the Adire Audio Brahma 12 that I've heard, I can say nothing but good things about they're XBL^2 technology. The specs on they're new lineup are up on their website, and they now have 3 subs with all sorts of sizes with XBL^2. Adire offers a lot for the dollar.

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Jon
Don't like rockford subs? Then don't look at my car =)

i've always liked the sound of kicker compvr's, and the new ones sound amazing.  also check out some soundstream stuff.

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96 firechicken- kicker cvr 15's, spl 1600 watt, optima yellow top, 2.0 farad cap, sealed box and 146.8 db :)<---now upto 147.2 S2 meca class, going for 128 on a drive by :)

I'm currently wanting to wade from Kicker, I fear the mass marketting method they are going is gonna, well, take care of them. And not the good kind for audio guys.

I wanna really look into the XBL tech, I wish there was something local to hear. But if it is comparable to w7 quality then it is probably even worth a purchase. I actually can find a use for both the low poweRED / low excursion setup with one friend if he ever gets around to it(He wants it loud, but wants quality higher and works on a tight budget, which this sounds to suit best) and another who wants to quality and power to boom like hell.

I'll dig my head into the Adire/Brahma crew and see what I like. Thanks for the tips guys, always appreciated.

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1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm

Ok now the next stage of this. What company is producing some good amps that'll push subs? Not looking for anything specific other than something that can go along with a good SQ level. (Probably looking at the w7s or the Tumults now, not 100% decided on anything yet as this is really a later stage of my project.) Just looking for some good companies. :) Thank you!

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1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm

I'd say go with two Infinity Kappa Perfects.

My only problem with subs like the Brahma, and the W7 and other "High End" subs is that they're so damn inefficient.

Paul

The Eclipse Ti12 - 1 cuft sealed - I am beatin' mine with 2700 watts, although you don't NEED that much. 1500w RMS, 3 inch linear Xmax... Best thing going out there, except the Tumult, which can only be bought right now with LARGE amounts of Unobtanium...

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

-mtx amplifiers-
-JL amplifiers-
(*please note I didn't write alpine)

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Tell the Snap-On guy I'm not here!

I too would take a look at the Eclipse Titanium or Aluminum series of drivers. After 6 years of retailing these speakers, they are still a stand out favorite.

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Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.

Francious said it best:

"Kappa Perfect"

Try modeling a single Kappa Perfect 12.1 v/ a single JLW7 w/ WinISD... like he say "so damn inefficent"

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"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview

Efficiency means only so much...

Moving on, what amp would go well with the Eclipse Ti or Al series? I'll tack the Titaniums to the list for sure to listen to.

Also with the Adire Brahma, why isn't it listed near their Tumult series and such? Just kinda wanting to get info on them.

Thanks for the help guys!

EDIT: Also anymore amp suggestions to look at known for SQ ability? :) Really could use a few more than JL and MTX

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1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm

Yea, I know the efficiency only means so much. But why throw 1500 watts at a sub to reach 120dB when I could run 500 watts instead (easier on my electrical system) to a more "sensitive" sub to reach that same point.

You know they DO measure SPL in SQ competitions too right??

Paul

*EDIT* and since when is MTX know for SQ?? Hey dude, go check out a Phoneix Gold Ti Elite 12.

Francious I couldn't agree with you more.

I'm throwing 800-watts at a JL13W6 and hitting something like 115 or so in a sealed box. I foolishly replaced a pair of Kappa Perfects with the stupid overpriced behemoth when my system was stolen and insurance basically let me read off model numbers of what I wanted to replace it with.

So learned how to use WinISD last week...

I modeled a Kappa Perfect vs the W6, both in manufactuer spec sealed boxes w/ WinISD... imagine my suprise when the response curve was just was flat with the Perfect... at a whooping 9dB increase. Same for the 13W7...

Maybe I'm missing something or haven't heard the right system, but after my own experience, and espeically after playing with WinISD a bit..I'm really trying to figure out the point of 1000watt RMS subs.

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"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview

Maybe it something to do with less sensitive subs having lower distortion #'s. Maybe Stephen could come here and explain it to me.

Paul

Francious70 wrote:

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Yea, I know the efficiency only means so much. But why throw 1500 watts at a sub to reach 120dB when I could run 500 watts instead (easier on my electrical system) to a more "sensitive" sub to reach that same point. 

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Because Hoffman's iron law says you have to either give up enclosure size or low frequency extention to gain that efficiency.  I personally would rather run more power as it is getting much cheaper to buy and amplifiers are getting more efficient themselves.  We don't just decide to make the subs less efficient because it's the trend.  We do it because it makes sense to obtain our design goals based on what the market demands.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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haemphyst wrote:

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The Eclipse Ti12 - 1 cuft sealed - I am beatin' mine with 2700 watts, although you don't NEED that much. 1500w RMS, 3 inch linear Xmax... Best thing going out there, except the Tumult, which can only be bought right now with LARGE amounts of Unobtanium...

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I just wanted to point out that the Xmax rating is Xmech only.  The true Xmax on that subwoofer was tested down around 22mm one way linear (less than 2" peak to peak).  But even still, it is a pretty nice sub.

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sedate wrote:

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Francious I couldn't agree with you more.

I'm throwing 800-watts at a JL13W6 and hitting something like 115 or so in a sealed box. I foolishly replaced a pair of Kappa Perfects with the stupid overpriced behemoth when my system was stolen and insurance basically let me read off model numbers of what I wanted to replace it with.

So learned how to use WinISD last week...

I modeled a Kappa Perfect vs the W6, both in manufactuer spec sealed boxes w/ WinISD... imagine my suprise when the response curve was just was flat with the Perfect... at a whooping 9dB increase. Same for the 13W7...

Maybe I'm missing something or haven't heard the right system, but after my own experience, and espeically after playing with WinISD a bit..I'm really trying to figure out the point of 1000watt RMS subs.

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Are you looking at the response curves with 1 watt power input?  Because I believe they just base those curves on the efficiency of the driver.  So if there is a 9 dB difference in the efficiency of the two drivers, that difference will be shown in the curves.  I don't play with WinISD much as we use LspCad for our modeling.  It allows you to see the response of the system with more than 1 watt of power applied, and shows what the excursion limits of the subs are at those higher power levels within the system.    This helps us compare the true output capabilities of two subs at different frequencies.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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Ahh, Stephen, I've never heard that law before. i never even knew that the sensitivity had anything to do with the frequency response.

And WinISD does let you enter in different power ratings for what you're modeling.

Sorry for the threadjack MA, but it's kinda in line with the whole SQ sub thing.

Here I have 1 Kappa Perfect and 1 Brahama. Each in a 1 cubic foot box with 600 watts input. The yellow line is the Kappa and the green is the Brahama.



This is a graph of the excursion of each sub with the same 600 watts input. The Kappa's excursion limits are .55 inches. It obviously has a sub-sonic filter in place to keep it from over excursion.

Another sub to consider is a soundsplinter rl-p sub. I've never heard one play, but only hear positive things about these subs. very good sound quality, get pretty loud & are very reasonably priced. check them out at sound www.splinter.com. they are part of tc sounds which i hear is another reputable high end audio company.

Notice on the graph above the shallower roll-off of the Braha's low end.  Now increase the power on the Brahma to about 1200-1500 watts and see what happens.  Keep in mind that the linear excursion limits on the Brahma are up over 2" peak to peak. 

Also try graphing each sub in the same alignment instead of the same size enclosure. 

Is that the old Brahma, or new Brahma you are graphing?  One thing to be aware of is that WinISD is assuming that the parameters don't change with excursion.  In reality each subwoofer will be effected by BL compression, the Brahma quite a bit less so due to the XBL^2 motor.  Sure a sub might have a better 1 watt sensitivity, but that will quickly be reduced with excursion.  The Brahma will have the same efficiency throughout most of it's excursion due to the flat BL curve.  This has thrown people off in the past when they were expecting a lower efficency out of one of our speakers compared to another due to the lower rating.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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I have to back Steven up here by saying this is 100% my experience with the Extremis driver (the only XBL driver I've played with at any length so far). While originally concerned with efficiency, my concern was quickly alleviated as I turned up the volume knob. The driver just keeps getting louder without problem.

XBL2 is the real deal. I'll be upgrading to a new Brahma as soon as they're released.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

Ok, I had our sales manager model the old Brahma compared to the Perfect in LspCad which is much more accurate than WinISD.  It shows the Perfect running out of excursion at less than 400 watts input in that enclosure.  With that limited power to the perfect and 600 watts on the Brahma, the output level is pretty much the same in the upper frequencies, with more extention on the low end going to the Brahma.  However the Perfect is at it's peak, while the Brahma can still go further yet if you have the power available.  This shows that although we are less efficient, we do have better low end extention in the same size enclosure.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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Don't mind the jacking at all, as long as I learn something worth while, which I don't think anyone can highly contest this information isn't worthwhile. :)

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1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm

Steven,

Could you get a pic of that graph?? What you're saying is that in the 1 cubic ft box, the Brahama will produce the same SPL with 600 watts than the Kappa will with 400 in the upper frequencies, but the Brahama will have more in SPL in the lower frequencies, all the while with lower distortion figures??

Paul

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of LspCad on my work computer otherwise I could.  And yes, your conclusions look right. 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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Well.. fantabulous. Is it going to be the same with the new Brahamas??

Paul

Kappa Perfect is the choice... JL drivers are way to inefficient and Adire treated me like a booger when i tried to order one damn woofer for over 9 months and still haven't got it. Go with someone who knows what they are doing, Infinity.

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

Oh yeah, throw it up for the Sound Splinter RLP series.

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

I thought we decided before that it was the dealer that personally did you wrong and not Adire

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

*Bump*

uthink... Did you pick out some subs yet?

yeah i just got them installed today. 3 15" TCSounds TC9-2570's . AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

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"I don't play games. I play Nakamichi and that for real yo" - Probably some japanese kid said this in the early 80's trying to sell stereo out of his trunk lol.

As for your amp selection, lots of good amps out there, but as with everything else, money money money. I run Diamond Audio amps and subs, and personaly, only other subs I would consider is Eclipse. But amp wise, Diamonds are extremely clean, great power, just cant go wrong, they just aren't cheap!$!$ I've heard good things about Lightning Audio amps as well.