power, component systems

ok do component systems need different power than regular speakers? i mean do they work as one channel or still as two??

lets take the boston acoustic Z5's for example... it says 400watts RMS. does that mean 400watts x 2 channels or x 1 channel?

everyone recommends "good clean power" for boston acoustic products. are boston amps the only good clean power amps? they are quite pricey :(


has anyone heard the Z line from BA in person? im still trying to decide if i want to run just these two speakers + a sub, or 4 speakers

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

1) RMS ratings are NOT requirements. For the Z5 it says 20-400w rms recommended. This is most certainly not a requirement. You do not need 400w rms for those speakers to sing. Moreover, using a 400w per channel amplifier to those components will barely ever make a difference over a 50w amplifier unless you frequently play your music at ear-harming levels.

2) Components -sometimes- require different power than coaxials. They can usually -- HANDLE -- more power, but this is a different question entirely.

3) It means 400x2. However, as I allude to above, it is probably not too worthwhile to get much more than 50x2 unless you're a fan of high SPL levels.

4) Try the fronts + a sub first, is my advice. If you want more, buy more. If you don't think you need more, you've saved yourself money and time.

5) There are a lot of amplifiers that produce clean power. Eclipse, Diamond, Memphis, Zapco, Audison, McIntosh, Xtant, Arc, etc. will all do a fine job.


Above all I want to stress that 400w is not a requirement. Most of the time you'll only be pushing the speakers 0.1w - 20w to those speakers if you listen at comfortable listening levels. Every doubling of power is a 3db increase in SPL. So, going from 200w to 400w only gains you 3db --- MAX. You only need this extra power if listening at stupid volume levels.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

so lets say i ran them at 125 per channel... what would be the difference b/w these speakers and the pro50s... is it really worth getting the Z5's? why do they cost so much? can i suffice with just pro50s and a sub?? im looking for SQ at SPL levels to set off car alarms and i dont allow many ppl in my back seat so i dont care much for rear listening experience... hehe i dont think it should be that hard with high quality equipment... yet again thats why im here :P

thanks for the help!!!

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

You need to listen to these before you buy them. Only you can make the decision to spend hundreds extra on sound quality.

On power. Just to push this point home. 125wpc can get 3db louder than 62.5wpc. 250wpc can get 3db louder than 125. Before you buy these big amplifiers for your mains you should realize how small 3db is. Also, with that kind of class a/b amplifier, you're approaching the 'you need to upgrade your alternator' area. Be prepared to drop even more money.

For you, interested primarily in SPL, I would buy some midrange components that handle a decent amount of power, and a smaller amplifier for them. 50wpc for mains should be plenty.

If you really are focused on SPL, focus your dollars on the bass system.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

well i have heard a system of sl60 and sl95s which i fell in love with. so i figured i would go with the higher line of the same company and just work off of two speakers with a sub to fill the rear... and also i moved to the pro's because the sl60s didnt fit in my doors. im working on trying to find out if it will be easy to fit 6.5s in a 5.25s with some work done so i guess that will be the path i go now since i dont want to spend more than what i want to lol

kfr... ur the man :P

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

if the modification to my door isnt too harsh... what do you think about sl60s powered by a rockford amp around 75x2 @ 4 ohms + a 10" G5 powered by a memphis 250W amp... would this setup more benefit from a 10 or 12" sub?? do you think i will be satisfied with this setup?

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

I need some explanation here. You are saying that doubling power is only 3 db gain, which I have always heard. But lets do some math here. If you have 2 amps at your disposal, one is 50x2 and one is 100x2 then by all logic the bigger amp is a 3 db gain, and if I had a 200 watt amp then that would give me a 3 db gain over the 100watt amp, thats 6 db total. Sounds right so far, correct. OK now look at it this way, I have a 50x2 amp and a 200x2 amp the 200x2 amp is 4 times the power that the 50x2 amp is so now by using your same logic I have a 12db increase. Are you seeing where the flaws are in your logic yet. Now lets get real extreme. I know have a 50x2 amp and a 400x2 amp, using the first example than the 400 watt amp is 3 db louder than the 200 which is 3 db louder than the100 which is 3 db louder than the 50 for a total of 9 db. Now using the new example of a 50x2 amp and a 400x2 amp the 400x2 amp puts out 8 times the power which comes out to a 24db gain. Thats a total of 15db louder and there is now way you can tell me thats inaudible, at any level thats realistic in car audio. So really how does the math really work out and where is the starting point. I hope I didnt loose anyone here but this is one of those things that I always here told as gospil but never have I ever heard it actually explained but when ever I question it I always get "Thats just the way it is" which is a bullshhh answer. Can some clear up this little bit of magic math for me

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

It is 8 times the power, but you dont multiply it by 3. It isnt linear, it is a power function. Think of it as a log graph, with db on the y axis and power on the x axis. 50 to 400w is a 9 db increase. Every time you double the power, you ADD 3 db.
50 x 2 = 100 3db
100 x 2 = 200 6db
200 x 2 = 400 9db



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6th gen Celica | Alpine CDA-9827 | Pioneer GMX962 | CDT CL components | JBL 600.1 | Infinity Reference 12

OK, but if I am quadrupiling the power than why wouldnt I multiply 3db by 4 which = 12db

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

Did a quick search, and got this equation for increase in db:
increase in db = 10*log(p2/p1)
where p1 is the reference power, p2 is the new power level, and log is log base 10.

if we plug that in, increase in db = 10*log(400/50)
increase in db = 9.03089


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6th gen Celica | Alpine CDA-9827 | Pioneer GMX962 | CDT CL components | JBL 600.1 | Infinity Reference 12

Awsome, see now that makes sense to me.

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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer

Glad to help

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6th gen Celica | Alpine CDA-9827 | Pioneer GMX962 | CDT CL components | JBL 600.1 | Infinity Reference 12

Glad all this was resolved without any input from me.  :-)  Nice job, Mike.

Anyway, to pull it all back around on topic, the previous power discussion highlights the diminishing returns on large amplifiers.  i.e. after a certain point, you aren't gaining much practical increase in performance for your extra dollar spent.  That said, I totally understand the desire to use some massive amplifiers for the sheer "my amp is bigger than yours and has huge headroom" motivation. 

Shootist, if you -are- looking for SQ, before you buy, think about possible ways to get the components in your kicks.  (On axis and with the tweeter within inches of the midrange).  These installation considerations may have a larger overall impact on SQ than the actual speakers you end up buying, (once a certain level of speaker competancy is reached), in my opinion. 

While we're helping you plan, what do you have in store for your bass?

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

either a brahma or a G5 seems to be my favorite at this point... i was thinking keeping it BA would be pretty cool but i still have a desire for the brahma due to all the rave about it :P but then again it seems difficult to find a brahma so thats why im leaning more towards the G5's at the moment.


currently im looking at sl60s on a 75x2 rockford amp and a 10" G5 powered by 250W memphis amp which would all together run me about 850$ from s... it is keeping under my 1000$ limit and it seems like it will be pretty good. any suggestions on how i should change the setup??? i dont mind drastic changes ill take anything into consideration :)


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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

a different setup would be

FS50 components in front
SL80 components in rear
G5 10" sub
all run on a memphis 5 channel amp. 75x4 + 300x1

this costs about 1200.


someone told me to stay away from anything in boston acoustics under the SL line... they said SL, PRO, or Z was the way to go and anything under that would not be loud enough. is this true? since you said that my speakers will only need ~60watts to run at a non hearing-damaging level, i think he is wrong but there has to be a reason he said it :P

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

ok im really confused...

im going to take these numbers from sonic electronix's site... can someone explain to me why speakers with higher rms are cheaper?

lets take the FX8, NX87, and SL80
they are all 5x7/6x8" speakers.
all are 2way with ~90DB sensitivity and about the same frequency response. impedance is 4 ohms. now lets look at the rms:
FX8 = 120rms    for 80$
NX87 = 160rms    for 120$
SL80 = 60rms     for 200$

ok so whats the difference b/w these? are the sl's the most respectable? will the FX and NX ones still be very impressive?

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

would you recommend against a prebuilt sub/amp/enclosure??? i know that this can not be great but will it really be that bad?? one im looking at now is:

https://www.sonicelectrnix.com/item_4247.html



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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

You sure vary a lot, don't you? The MA audio thing would be -A- system. That's about it. I think it would fail miserably at meeting either your SQ or SPL goals.

On the rms price difference thing. High power handling does not equal quality. The price difference is because the SL line uses higher quality parts and is more like "components in a plate" rather than cheaper quality coaxial speakers.

Also, usually people buying cheap speakers like to see HUGE numbers. The manufacturers usually lie to people that don't know any better, sad to say.

On the actual speaker choices. You should decide how interested in SQ you really are. If you really are interested in SQ, I would stick with the Pro or Z lines. You really do need to take a listen to these speakers before you buy though. Is there any particular reason you are focused on Boston? Boston makes nice speakers, but there are many other companies that make nice speakers too.

Memphis is a nice choice on the amplification. I think they provide a nice quality/price point. In fact, Memphis's more expensive component set

https://www.memphiscaraudio.com/products/details.asp?id=9

with the blue silk tweeter sounds fantastic for the money. The Diamond Audio Hex components are also fantastic for the money. (I personally think either of these is probably a better value than the Bostons -- although the Bostons are very nice quality speakers)

Your bass decision. The single 10" driver sounds like an SQ system design choice to me... not one someone would make that wants to set off car alarms with SPL. Sooo... here again, you should really think about what you want. If it is SQ, wonderful choice with the Brahma and 300w. If it is really more massive-SPL oriented, you should probably look at a more efficient system with more power.

Anyway, sleep on it and decide what your real goals are. :-)

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

the happy SQ/SPL medium is the reason for the constant vary lol... how bout this... im looking to impress people inside and out. i dont necessarily need to set off car alarms but i would like to have a decent SPL and i somewhat am starting to believe that basically any speaker on the market will get to and ear piercing volume. so i guess its more into SQ/price now.

ive heard boston setups before and was really overwhelmed even w/o subs. im not stuck on boston but ive never heard anything bad about them and is one of the few aftermarket systems ive heard in person.

kfr would u mind just recommending a good setup for me. you seem to know what i want lol. your alot of help man thanks mucho

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

Shootist:

I think the volume thing is true for mains. If you want to impress people outside of the car you'll need a larger bass system.

For you:
Deck: An Alpine or Eclipse with front/rear/subwoofer pre-outs that can all be assigned crossovers on the deck.

Mains:
You ---need--- to go out and listen and find what you like with -your- music. Really. Go ahead and order online, but try to take a listen and at least compare a few brands to get a feel for their sound. They'll all sound different!

That said, here's a setup I'm confident would sound pretty good to most ears.. Try the 6.5" Diamond Hex speakers or the Memphis 6.5" speakers I linked in my previous post. Make custom kick panels for them. Put some Diamond or Memphis coaxials in the rear.

Sub: If you want to impress your friends outside the car I would recommend being willing to dedicate as much space in the rear to a subwoofer box as possible. If you can fit them try a pair of Koda 12D8. They are more efficient than the Brahma and will have similar SQ. Translation: louder with less power. Again, if you have space, get them in a ported enclosure tuned to 25hz. They have less excursion and thus are individually not as capable, SPL-wise, but a pair of these will be easier to get louder with low amplifier power than one Brahma.

Amps: Any quality brand will work. I'd go separate mains/sub amp, just for future flexibility reasons. 50x4 for the mains. Class D mono 2-ohm stable at ~300w would be ideal if you port those Koda 12D8s. Find one w/ subsonic filter if you can.

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New Project: 2003 Pathfinder

ehhh two subs is too much room and too pricey... any other ideas on the sub setup??

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback

and you can scratch the impressing on the outside... thats just stupid now that i think of it lol

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'92 Mustang Gt Hatchback