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Electrical Load Detector Killed My system

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=55543
Printed Date: March 28, 2024 at 7:29 PM


Topic: Electrical Load Detector Killed My system

Posted By: skoldspuppy
Subject: Electrical Load Detector Killed My system
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 2:30 PM

Well the time has come for my entire electrical system to die

The wifes 2004 Civic is no more

The Wound up 150 Amp alternator = Dead
The Computer Brain = Dead

The cause = Electrical Load Detector that also died

It seems that this little device that honda puts on there newer cars, seems to have a fatal flaw when you bypass it and try to run an 1500 watt amp

Luckly all this was covered under warranty so no out of cost, except I had to lie to the dealer ship and say the alternator was the stock one, or spend a few months with my attorney suing honda, because they were not going to cover my problmes

So now im back to a complete stock electrical system including the measly 70amp alt, execpt for the BIG3

So now after a long chat with 3 different import specialty shops and the dealer, we cant find a way to hook up my system safley, even with a HO alt

Since the stock alternator doesnt even turn on until 2000 RPM I can use my system unless Im at highway speeds,  Damn ELD
So now I need to know how to generate enough power to the equipment at 1999 RPM's and lower, since this is the period that the ELD shuts the alternator off

Otherwise If I go back to the HO route my Electrical is going to fry in 6 months just like it did yesterday

So Im thinking its about new car time for us, anyone know off hand if there still putting 100+ amp alternators in cars these days from the factory?
Or if anyone here has any other solution

Lets put it this way im not opposed to running multiple batteries and every night pluging the car into a battery charger

Help Please.. I dont want to buy a new car.. well ok I do but please help if you can

Thanks all

---Skold



-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell



Replies:

Posted By: fastone
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 2:54 PM
So what happened here? How could this have killed the computer & alternator? Sorry, I've never heard of this device before. Are there any other cars that have them? If I install a system in somebody's car and do this much damage, we got us a REAL problem!

-------------
Famous last words: Hey man, what's this wire do?




Posted By: skoldspuppy
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 3:15 PM

From a Master Tech at my Honda Dealership, also aggreed on by 3 independent Import shops:

Coral Springs Honda wrote:

The ELD is essentially a current transformer that monitors the amount of current draw the car is pulling from the battery. This amount varies from time to time depending on what you have turned on (various electrical devices). The ELD will output .1 - 4.8 volts to the ECU. This reference voltage is what tells the ECU to increase or decrease the field strength in the alternator, which in turn bumps up the output of the alternator.

Since all aftermarket electrical feeds are pretty much tapped off of the positive terminal of the battery, the current path is not flowing through the ELD. What does this do? All of the amplifiers, LCD monitors, and pretty much anything else that isn't fed through the factory wiring of the car draw a lot of current.
Since the ELD isn't detecting any additional current draw from the battery, it is going to keep the alternator's output at minimum (12.3 volts) - just enough to keep the battery charged, plus enough to run the systems of the car.

When this unit overloads for what ever reason, many of you electrical components can be damage, IE: Brain, Alternator, Sensors ETC




-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell




Posted By: auex
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 4:51 PM
Not to get too far into this but the part about minimum voltage is wrong. That won't charge a battery for shhh. If this came from a master tech then I wouldn't listen to anything else he says because that is pretty basic.

Dealership=full of shhh.

It sounds more like your alt's voltage regulator went bad and spiked the ecu.

-------------
Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.




Posted By: skoldspuppy
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 7:37 PM

auex]N wrote:

t to get too far into this but the part about minimum voltage is wrong. That won't charge a battery for shhh. If this came from a master tech then I wouldn't listen to anything else he says because that is pretty basic.

Dealership=full of shhh.

It sounds more like your alt's voltage regulator went bad and spiked the ecu.

Id like to believe that
but I had talked to other Import tuner shops that say the same as the dealership for the newer civics
Im going to go and talk with some shops in south Miami and if they tell me the same thing, then I need to realy find an alternative solution, maybe tapping right after the fuse box as thats where the ELD is located

Thanks for the input



-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell




Posted By: fastone
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 9:15 PM
I think I'm gonna agree with auex. Somebody's is full of sh**. The computer should do whatever it needs to keep the battery charged, regardless of current load. It seems kind of ridiculous to try to charge the battery based on the current load. If you have an older weaker battery it won't know that without monitoring voltage. That is the basis for recharging a battery. Nothing to do with current load. Also you don't vary the voltage to regulate charging, you regulate the current. The voltage regulator is designed to keep the voltage as constant as possible.

-------------
Famous last words: Hey man, what's this wire do?




Posted By: OhioMike1101
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 9:48 PM

https://www.sounddomain.com/memberpage/563904/1

and there are hundreds more of 2004 civics with 1000 watt + systems on that site.  Maybe somebody should tell all of them that it can't be done.





Posted By: NowYaKnow
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 10:15 PM
Not sure how accurate this will be on the 04's, but feel free to test it out and post your findings.

Put your volt meter on the battery with the vehicle OFF and note the reading.

Start the car and let it idle 30 seconds or so, and note the reading.

Continue to let the car idle, but turn the headlights on, and note the reading.

With the car off, you should see about 12.6 volts or so. At idle, if the car is in low charge mode it would not read much above 12.6. At idle with the headlights on, it should go to normal charge mode and go up to 14 - 14.5 volts or so.

If that works, then you could get away with just turning on your headlights whenever you drive to have the alternator at full charge. You could also fool the sensor pretty easily by sending the correct voltage to it I would think.

Mike




Posted By: skoldspuppy
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 10:16 PM
OhioMike1101 wrote:

https://www.sounddomain.com/memberpage/563904/1

and there are hundreds more of 2004 civics with 1000 watt + systems on that site.  Maybe somebody should tell all of them that it can't be done.


I know it can be done, I ran 1500 Watts for 6 months for a HO alt, now its all crashed down and we cant figure out if it was really the ELD or a faulty Voltage Regulator

But right now I have explict orders from the wife not to spend any money on a HO alt again, thats why Im looking for an alternative solution or Im just going to rip everything out a put it on ebay

I dont have many options, my B@llz are tied



-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell




Posted By: auex
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 10:16 PM
I'll stop at one of the Honda dealer's I work with and ask the service director what he thinks. By the way, if your sound system was at fault then your warranty wouldn't have covered it, another indicator why I believe the dealer is full of shhh.

-------------
Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.




Posted By: skoldspuppy
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 10:21 PM

NowYaKnow wrote:

Not sure how accurate this will be on the 04's, but feel free to test it out and post your findings.

Put your volt meter on the battery with the vehicle OFF and note the reading.

Start the car and let it idle 30 seconds or so, and note the reading.

Continue to let the car idle, but turn the headlights on, and note the reading.

With the car off, you should see about 12.6 volts or so. At idle, if the car is in low charge mode it would not read much above 12.6. At idle with the headlights on, it should go to normal charge mode and go up to 14 - 14.5 volts or so.

If that works, then you could get away with just turning on your headlights whenever you drive to have the alternator at full charge. You could also fool the sensor pretty easily by sending the correct voltage to it I would think.

Mike

Now thats a suggestion thanks, tomorrow I'll give that a shot..



-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell




Posted By: skoldspuppy
Date Posted: May 11, 2005 at 10:30 PM

auex]I wrote:

ll stop at one of the Honda dealer's I work with and ask the service director what he thinks. By the way, if your sound system was at fault then your warranty wouldn't have covered it, another indicator why I believe the dealer is full of shhh.

Thanks Auex

I know it wasnt covered under warranty, until I was forced to give up my HO alternator after I agreed to take one for the team, they "overlooked" the fact it was a HO alt and not the factory one.. only then was my repair covered by warranty

Either way Im out my HO and I cannot under any circumenstances put a HO back in, the audio system is not worth the last day of me and my Wife screaming at each other over this, so Im letting her win, no HO what are my other options, downgrading if I have to I just have no idea how many watts I can run safely off a 70amp alt



-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell




Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 1:14 AM
Does a 2002 civic have this so called device??

-------------
2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.




Posted By: skoldspuppy
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 9:38 AM

Alpine Guy wrote:

Does a 2002 civic have this so called device??

Not to my knowledge
But here is a picture of it , its in the fuse box under the hood

posted_image

At the bottom here Im thinking about tapping the out lead of the fuse box so my amp will be after the ELD so it can detect load at all times



-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell




Posted By: Paradigm
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 9:55 AM
Shoulda bought domestic...then you wouldn't of had to lie about your screw-up and also fight with your wife. Sucks to be you posted_image

-------------
VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2




Posted By: skoldspuppy
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 10:28 AM

Paradigm wrote:

Shoulda bought domestic...then you wouldn't of had to lie about your screw-up and also fight with your wife. Sucks to be you posted_image

Ok then what domestic has alts that are at least 100+ amps from the factory, you name them.. i'll buy



-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell




Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 10:48 AM
Paradigm wrote:

Shoulda bought domestic...then you wouldn't of had to lie about your screw-up and also fight with your wife. Sucks to be you posted_image


First off, a domestic manufacturer wouldn't have even allowed him to lie, cover it up, or whatever, and STILL cover the failure under warranty. I've seen that happen WAY more often than with Honda or Toyota.

Second off, (and here is where I piss people off!) I resent that remark... Skolds, keep the Honda... Nothing in passenger cars is worth a crap for longevity from the domestics... Besides that, your Honda probably has more "American" parts in it than many "American" cars... AND, it is actually BUILT in America, not Mexico or Canada... (Marysville, Ohio, to be precise) by non-union auto builders who make as much money as union autoworkers from the "Big 3" - because they WORK for it. Difference is - if they do not work enough, or produce inferior products, they lose their JOB... They don't have a union backing them to "protect" them... and they know it. Unions SUCK - been there, done that! All a union does is allow you to buy your job for a monthly fee, and AFAIAC, they have outlived their usefulness in America today.

-------------
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."




Posted By: Master Asylum
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 11:02 AM

Hae is my man here. He is entirely on(family in the industry will back this well enough.) **** unions. Anyways.

My 98 Monte Carlo is packing 100-105 amp stock. it is ugly, old, and booo. But other than that, it has good trunk space and can handle my amp fine with a 2nd yellow top.

Though hae, I must disagree with one thing. This Monte Carlo is now at 141k and going fine. My 90 Grand Prix I had before it sold for 1400 with 200k on it and going fine other than some minor problem(I don't even remember what). There are some domestics that, if treated well, hold up great. Now given, those two vehicles are VERY similar, but I'd say that they carry over well enough to some other stuff. (Seen a chevy blazer with like 100/+ that is holding up great, only needed a new alternator.) Though I greatly agree with them not turning their heads like the Honda boys did, no way would you get that outta money grubbing companies that you'll find in America.



-------------
1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm




Posted By: 5150azn
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 11:18 AM
I used to be a honda certified tech and also used to own a import tuning shop so maybe I can shed some light on this. It's been a while and I maybe wrong but this is what is rolling through my head.

- All vehicles have some form of ELD. This is to prevent the alternator from over working by being on high output all the time.

- When you add an after market system directly to your battery the only thing you may damage is

     1. Battery: Constant charging and draining wreaks havoc on the internals.

     2. Alternator: If the ELD"system" senses the battery is at a lower voltage than it should be then the alternator goes on high charge mode, thus straining the alternator.

Your ECU should be safe.... Unless your ELD's reference voltage suddenly spikes to an unsafe voltage. In which case it would be a faulty ELD and nothing to do with your system.

Here's the big one....

What I think is you should add another battery to help with the peak voltage drops that send your battery(ies) to such levels as to tell the ELD that your voltage levels are too low thus cranking your HO alt on full power all the time(the whole 6 months). Your over working your ELD and your Alt.   Your alt. shouldn't work that hard being that it's putting out twice as much power already. The thing is you have to store that power so your alt doesn't have to keep making more.

Sorry for the big post! It's early and I'm bored.

-------------
Tell the Snap-On guy I'm not here!




Posted By: MoneyPit
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 11:20 AM

skoldspuppy; just FYI

Right now I'm running one Kicker KX400.1 (birthed at 465) and two 12" P1's  at 2ohms (yeah I know, but it sounds decent for now)

I can watch the volt guage dip to 10v on hard hits but the lights don't dim at all. It's in a '90 Ford F150 with the factory 70A alt.......without even the Big3.  The power wire to the Alt and battery to chassi ground is only 12 AWG!!

Good luck in whatever you decide...



-------------
Bill
System in progress:
2 Kicker KX400.1's - 945w RMS
2 12" P3's in a ported box built by local shop
1 Kicker KX250.2 to drive the mids and highs
1 set Alpine SPR-136A for mids & highs




Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 11:43 AM
Amendment - worth a crap TODAY.

I too, have owned domestics in the past. I had a '72 Olds 88, and when it finally died, the odo had been rolled TWICE by me, and I think the previous owner rolled it once. That's 300K PLUS miles...! I had an '86 Civic Si, that I traded in on my '01 (actually, I retired it to the State of California, for $1500 as a "gross polluter" posted_image) with 380K on the odo, and all I ever did was change filters, oil, and the O2 sensor once - OH, AND DROVE THE FRIGGIN' WHEELS OFF OF IT!!! My '01 Civic now has 91K, and still gets over 40MPG. I made my 48th payment of 60 this month.

I really didn't mean to ruffle any feathers with my previous post, I just had to say what was on my mind...

Also, lets get back on topic... Sorry! My bad...

-------------
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."




Posted By: racer427
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 11:48 AM

I have to diagree with all of the import fanatics. American cars are built tougher and are just a durrable as any import car. I have a 94 Lumina Euro that currently has 165,000 on the OD. The car is still 100% solid and runs great. I also have had many other cars that have wel out lived the average lifespan, All Chevy's.

My brother in lad has a 1978 Chevy truck that had almost 400,000 on the OD before he had to finally pull the motor.

It's all in how well that you take care of them. Do the regular maintence. and the car should give you many years.

And alot of the the American cars are coming straight from the factory with over 100 amp ALTS. S**T, the Chevy Trailbalzer has a 150 amp ALT right out of the factory. My 94 has at least a 105Amp in it. Yes, it's still not enough for my system but, its better than a 70 amp.

Chris



-------------
Alpine CDA-9833 HU
Diamond Audio M661 Components
MTX Thunder T6.6 Components:rear fill:
Cadence Q400 4 Channel Mains + rears
Thunder 801D Subs
MTX 1004 10's
Dual 4g wire to rear
4g grounds




Posted By: 5150azn
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 6:47 PM
$3 per gallon

-------------
Tell the Snap-On guy I'm not here!




Posted By: klee1981
Date Posted: May 12, 2005 at 7:43 PM

My 1997 Pontiac Grand Prix has 110,891 miles on the odometer.  I have replaced the stock atlernator once with a new one, and haven't had ANY trouble since,  well no trouble that I didn't cause.  0 guage to the dist block in the trunk, 0 guage ground, 4 guages from the dist blocks to the amps.  At night with the lights on I get 13.50 volts, 13.05 with the AC on, but I broke the AC so I never use it anyway.  This has been the most durable car I have owned to date, I am quite hard on cars some of my past cars are:

1991 Nissan Sentra for a year, I had a 1994 dodge caravan for 6 months, and a 1987 ck1500 gmc truck for a year.

Thats all I have.

Kevin



-------------
Sony CDX-f5700
Hifonics Zeus 170x4 zx6400
JBL BP1200.1
2 infinity Perfect 12" subs
1.70cft, 37hz
Infinity CS5000 Front 5.25" and Tweeters
Infinity Kappa 6x9" Rear Mids
Pioneer 4" rear tweeters




Posted By: Paradigm
Date Posted: May 13, 2005 at 10:44 AM

My point to my post was that he had to lie to get the warranty to have the alt replaced. Sorry, that just rubs me the wrong way. Domestic or import, that's just plain wrong. You screw it up (intentional or not) - you pay for it. Don't make it worse for those of us that are actually honest and confess to our mistakes. Take some responsibility for your actions, eh?

My 2002 GMC Sonoma has a stock 105 amp alternator. Domestic and stock. Wanna buy yet? posted_image Most domestic vehicles these days DO come with alts at/near 100 amps or more...

Haemphyst, I will agree with you on the union portion of your post. Couldn't have said it better myself.



-------------
VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2




Posted By: skoldspuppy
Date Posted: May 13, 2005 at 11:09 AM
Paradigm wrote:

My point to my post was that he had to lie to get the warranty to have the alt replaced. Sorry, that just rubs me the wrong way. Domestic or import, that's just plain wrong. You screw it up (intentional or not) - you pay for it. Don't make it worse for those of us that are actually honest and confess to our mistakes. Take some responsibility for your actions, eh?


I did not have to Lie, my service rep advised me it would be in everyones best intrest to loose the HO alt for the Warranty repair
Im sorry that rubs you the wrong way, but I did what I felt was necessary at the time, anyway logistically it doesnt make sense to keep a $200 dollar item and then shell have shell out $1000 + for repair



-------------
2004 Honda Civic Ex 4Dr

Kenwood DDX-7015/W Nav
4 Fosgate T152C
Hifonics Brutus BX1500D
RE XXX 12 in a 4 Cube Snail Shell




Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: May 13, 2005 at 11:36 AM
just to let you guys know, ,the vehicles comming with 100+ amp alts are still usesless for adding stereo's, just because the alts are more powerful it dosn't mean theres more power available.  The real reason the have bigger alts now is because the vehicles have greater power consumptions so they need a bigger alt to keep up, therefor still leaveing you with little to play with in the end.

-------------
2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.




Posted By: 5150azn
Date Posted: May 13, 2005 at 11:40 AM
Thats why it's a good idea to make friends with your service advisor if you service your car at the dealership regularly. I've seen all kinds of crazy stuff get covered by warranty.

-------------
Tell the Snap-On guy I'm not here!




Posted By: Paradigm
Date Posted: May 13, 2005 at 3:42 PM
skoldspuppy wrote:

Paradigm wrote:

My point to my post was that he had to lie to get the warranty to have the alt replaced. Sorry, that just rubs me the wrong way. Domestic or import, that's just plain wrong. You screw it up (intentional or not) - you pay for it. Don't make it worse for those of us that are actually honest and confess to our mistakes. Take some responsibility for your actions, eh?


I did not have to Lie, my service rep advised me it would be in everyones best intrest to loose the HO alt for the Warranty repair
Im sorry that rubs you the wrong way, but I did what I felt was necessary at the time, anyway logistically it doesnt make sense to keep a $200 dollar item and then shell have shell out $1000 + for repair


However you wanna spin it, it's still wrong. I guess if the rep told you that, then I would probably do the same thing in your shoes...



-------------
VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2




Posted By: auex
Date Posted: May 13, 2005 at 4:18 PM
Actually Honda dealership's are pretty good about thier warranties, Basicaly the way I saw it was that he could have the car covered under warranty as long as he had a stock alt put back in. Also replacing the alt isn't a big deal, it was the ECU that is the big deal. The dealership probably didn't care about putting it under warranty as long as they wouldn't have to do it again. Also IMO the dealership was full of shhh for the cause of the ecu blowing regarding the ELD. There are too many variables to discount the warranty dispute either way.

Also racer, do you notice the trend there? You are talking about OLDER domestic cars whereas most people are referring to NEWER import cars. Apples to Oranges. I know, you also mentioned the Trailblazer, that is laughable seeing as many of them go back as lemons that I have personally seen. I honestly don't know of any other vehicle I have seen been turned in more often under the lemon law then the Trailblazer.

Now stay on topic and quit bashing imports/domestics.

-------------
Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.




Posted By: 5150azn
Date Posted: May 13, 2005 at 4:25 PM
Hey auex what do you think of my diagnosis that I posted earlier on this thread?

-------------
Tell the Snap-On guy I'm not here!




Posted By: auex
Date Posted: May 13, 2005 at 4:29 PM
Which post?

Also, my contact at the dealership hasn't been there.

-------------
Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.





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