JL Audio Subs and Amps, is it a hype!

I have always been a fanatic about home and car audio systems. SQ is my primary concern in any set up, home or car. I had opportunity to go to Hi-Fi Audio/Video convention/show in NYC that is held in March every year. Where all top audio/vidoe manufacturers get together and show their best products in show rooms and listening rooms. Companies like Revel, JM Labs by Focal, MBL, B&W, Wilson Audio, etc. I have gone there 2 years in the row and if any of you have a chance to go and listen to $100-$200 thousand dollars home audio set ups and realize what SQ is, you have to go and listen to speakers like B&W or set ups like MBL, people who know these Class A Stereophile companies, know what I am talking about. You will be blown away. Well I know that these set ups are masde for reach and famous who can afford them, but it is good experience to hear the best possible sound reporoduction you can have and then gear your ear and buy what you could afford for home and your car. I finally completed my home system with help of my friend that has introduce me to this other world of SQ that exists besides what is sold for regular consumer in Best Buy and Circuit city. After doing a lot of listening and research I bought Infinity IL50 speakers and IL model Center channel and NAD amp for my stereo and Surround. For surrounf I bought Klipsh because surrounds are really not that important, spent $800 on all my Audio Qwest wiring and Denon DVD-1900 DVD Audio CD PLayer and one of the worlds best rerated DVD player. The sound for the money is amazing. It is worm, loud if needs to be and quility. I am looking to buy Toshiba SD9200 DVD player which is Class A CD player rated by  Stereophile Mag to improve my sound quility. So for the money I have the best stuff in my eyes that I can afford without going into Class A amp starting at $5k just for stereo amp and Class A B&W speakers starting at about the same price plus upgrading cable to really hear some noticable difference in sound.

Now, you would probably ask me, why would you write all this on Car Audio website? I will tell you why. After reading few reviews of different products on this forum I see that some people have an idea of SQ in car audio world and wanted to have a professional opinion. As we all know. The way cars are, you will never have SQ as good as the home audio set up, but you could get something very good that would sound OK, considering it is a car sound system. Since sound waves are very  limited inside the car I see no point spending $1000 on Dyno Audio Components and $3,500 for Macintosh Amp, etc.

I was searching the net for answers from people that know a thing or two about car audio and SQ, and found this website tonight while at work, bored. I just bought 01 Lexus GS430 with regular sound system inside, not the $6k option of Mark Levisnon which I would be very happy with, I have heard it. I have owned to sound systems before in 2 of my cars and was never that happy with the bass, it was always boomy and in my eyeys incorrect, delayed, and distorted and was there when it was not supposed to be. My first system was in 1998 for my 1997 Maxima. I had Lanzar Vibe amps for speakers and one for the Subs. I had 2 12" Lanzar subs in the bandpass box. Had Lanzar components for front and 6x9 Altec Lenzing for the back with Pioneer top of the line at that time head unit and EQ. Sound, after i tuned it was pretty good, but bass was always not right and distorted, no SQ at all. I was young and did not care a that time. After I started to understand sound a bit more, I put a different system in my 98 Acura RL. I had 2 Orion Extreme Amps that I bought cheap on ebay, 75w x 4 for speakers and I think 450w x 2 for subs, bridged. I had 2 10" Rockford HE2 subs wired for bridged sound  at 2ohms in the sealed box, I am not an expert. And horrible Polk Audio components and back speakers, they had to many highs for me, mids were ok. The bass in those was not bad, but still not quility. So now I wanted to put something better together that has SQ all arround without spending crazy money but not cheap either.

In my Lexus gs430 I wanted to go with JL Audio amps, since any shop I go to, they all have them, and selling them like cup cakes, and consider them one of the best you can buy. Is that true? Magazines rave about  JL Amps and JL subs. Are they that good or just a hype? I mean there are other brands like Phoenix Gold, Zappco, Memphis, Xtent, Rockford, PPI etc that were also arround when I did my first system. But I dod not see them arround any more sold in stores. I went on ebay and pretty much every reasonably priced JL product is getting bids on, and Rockford products or Phoenix Gold no one is bidding on?! Why? Since I was not arround this car audio stuff for at least 5 years, I do not know hte market any more. I was thinking to buy:

Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.5in components for the front doors, but they only go down per specs to 75hz and regular Kappa's go down to 45hz, you can buy both cheap on ebay

Kappa 6.5in 2-way speakers in back doors

Infinity Kappa 10' VQ sub or 12', not sure yet, wich one would be punchier in 1cubic feet sealed box?

JL Audio 300/4 amp 75w x4 RMS @ 4ohms for speakers

JL Audio 500/1 amp 500w x1 RMS @ 4ohms for the sub

Please help me out if this is the best set up for the money i can get to get the most SQ!!! Thank you guys. Great website!!

IMO JL makes some great product.  I believe the W7 would be a huge step above your previous subs in the SQ department.  This is because they use a modified overhung motor that reduces distortion over conventional designs.  I highly recommend you taking a listen at the local dealer.  I also hear great things about their amps, but don't have any experience with them.

One thing I do recommend is ignoring most low end frequency response ratings on components.  I'd recommend instead taking a listen (preferably in vehicle if possible) and see what the true low end is like.  My old a/d/s/ components claimed some good extention, but came up short IMO.  My current speakers stomp on them in the low end.

Anyway, I highly suggest you going out to the local stores and start demoing the product.  Then once you find what you like best, purchase it at the shop.  Sure it might cost a little more.  But you don't have the risk of being ripped off by someone across the country, you get a warranty, and you get it the same day.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

I'd steer clear of the Rockford and PPI amps.  Other than that, the others you mentioned are good.  Rockford amps seem to taint/discolor the music more than most of the other brands.  PPI quality has gone downhill since the DEI takeover- more problems than normal. 

For speakers, I'd listen and buy what you like.  Infinity makes some good stuff, but like MB Quart, they're typically too bright for my taste.

Check the specs for the Kappa subs, and see what they require.  Are you only willing to give up 1 cubic foot?

JL makes quality gear with solid construction.  It's pricey, but some of the least problematic equipment you will ever use.  The 300/4 and 500/1 are both great choices. 

we all do that stevdart, we all do.

But my take on JL is that it is a good company that puts out products that preform well. I think that there are better values on the market. Will you be dissapointed with their gear? That will depend on what YOU like, not necessarily what a magazine review says or anyone else. It is a good idea to check out stuff that people recommend though, but wouldn't buy it without hearing it first.

I have been satisfied with store bought components, however bi-amping components is going to the best and last step to true audiophilia. And if you were to go with pre-fab comps, there are plenty better sounding options than Infinity.

haemphyst wrote:

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Speaking as someone who is also VERY interested in SQ, (I have Wisdom Audio 52 inch Planars in my living room, and Adcom GFA555 amps, Marchand Electronics 48dB crossovers, teflon insulated silver wire - you get the idea) DO NOT buy anything as a kit... Component sets, no matter WHO makes them, do NOT qualify as audiophile gear... Oh, sure the MBQuart is rated "highest", but what is it compared to? More mass-market garbage! I have NEVER heard anything even CLOSE to what you can put together for yourself from (even, or possibly preferably) different manufacturers. I use Morel MW-162 in the door, with an Eclipse 370wpc amp for them, I use Infinity eMit Kappa Ribbon tweeters, with an Eclipse 120wpc amp for them. Bi-wiring/bi-amping IS the way to go. It WLL cost you plenty, but if you want the best you can get, you are going to have to play with it, and pay for it... PM me for more info!

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I don't know if I would suggest that for most people.  You have the advantage of knowing what you are doing, unlike 99.999% of the people out there.  To do it right they would have to know how to select the proper speakers, and design adequate crossovers.  The crossover is something that most people cannot do properly without very expensive test gear/software, plus years of experience at it.  Or if they go active, there are still things they need to know to select the proper cutoff frequency and slope.  Also they would need to know how to equalize the response adaquately. 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Very good point Steven, and most people who are unable to do these things will more than likely not notice the difference of the better set up, unfortunately.

Steven Kephart wrote:

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haemphyst wrote:

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Speaking as someone who is also VERY interested in SQ, (I have Wisdom Audio 52 inch Planars in my living room, and Adcom GFA555 amps, Marchand Electronics 48dB crossovers, teflon insulated silver wire - you get the idea) DO NOT buy anything as a kit... Component sets, no matter WHO makes them, do NOT qualify as audiophile gear... Oh, sure the MBQuart is rated "highest", but what is it compared to? More mass-market garbage! I have NEVER heard anything even CLOSE to what you can put together for yourself from (even, or possibly preferably) different manufacturers. I use Morel MW-162 in the door, with an Eclipse 370wpc amp for them, I use Infinity eMit Kappa Ribbon tweeters, with an Eclipse 120wpc amp for them. Bi-wiring/bi-amping IS the way to go. It WLL cost you plenty, but if you want the best you can get, you are going to have to play with it, and pay for it... PM me for more info!

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I don't know if I would suggest that for most people.  You have the advantage of knowing what you are doing, unlike 99.999% of the people out there.  To do it right they would have to know how to select the proper speakers, and design adequate crossovers.  The crossover is something that most people cannot do properly without very expensive test gear/software, plus years of experience at it.  Or if they go active, there are still things they need to know to select the proper cutoff frequency and slope.  Also they would need to know how to equalize the response adaquately. 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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haemphyst wrote:

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Sho' you right, man! But the guy asked, so I told him...

Dlomonosov, Steven is VERY correct in his admonishion of my statement. He is very correct in the respect that it is, indeed, FAR more difficult to take the route I have suggested. *IF* you were to decide to go this way, please keep in mind the statements and points made by him, and realize the difficulty BEFORE you decide to follow...

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I was fortunate enough to hear a local IASCA system not too long ago.  It was extremely well setup, and was the best I've ever heard in a car.  He spent a great deal of time and energy on the install and parts.  I must say that his troubles were well worth it as you will definitely not get that kind of sound from an off-the-shelf setup.  It's like I suggest putting your subs up front for the best bass reproduction, but know that few will go through all the trouble as I have.   However I just wanted to be sure people know what they are getting into first. 

haemphyst wrote:

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One thing to remember, though... AVOID AT ALL POSSIBLE COSTS additional signal processing devices. Correct selection of components and proper installation will not need any.

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I'm curious why you say this? 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

someone wrote:

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if any of you have a chance to go and listen to $100-$200 thousand dollars home audio set ups and realize what SQ is, you have to go and listen to speakers like B&W or set ups like MBL, people who know these Class A Stereophile companies, know what I am talking about.

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Diomonosov wrote:

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This guy is selling Infinity Kappa Perfect components 6.5in for $140 used or you can et them new for about $220, in store they go for $400. I know they will sound good, the only thing is their frequency response goes down only to 75hz where regular Kappa's go down to 45hz?

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Either one responds down to the same frequency.  It's just that higher end speakers might be judged according to stricter criteria.  80 Hz is where you want them to pick up, anyway.  And no way would I ever buy someone's used component speakers.

yea.. i know.. i was affraid to do that too, but everyone that are selling them, say they got rid of the car and now need to sell the speakers.. i guess you right, now that i am thinking about.. i will new Kappa's on ebay for about $150 new, well the amps I think is a different story, I think you can buy the JL amps used, right? to save some money..

The answer to Poormanq45,

Well Rotel is a very good company and they make very good amps, but they are not Class A amps they are in same Class B maybe C category like my NAD amp, considered by Audiophile's. Amps like Mark Levinson, Bryston, Classe are pure CLass A amps, and spend $10-30k for each that need Class A speakers, Like B&W Nautilus (my favorite, they sound magical) $6k, Wilson Audio Watt Poppies about $30k, not even going into MBL's or JM Labs by Focal $80k, plus you need Class A CD Player like Arcam or Toshiba SD9200, these are the cheap Class A brands, you can spend $15k and get MBL CD Player too. Then You need $2k cables to run them. Then you will have pure class A system that uses the best possible components in the wrold to give you the best possible, cleanest pure sound reproduction the industry could offer. But you need to spend money. What I did is, I got everything the best for the money that I can afford and am very happy.

JL is a good brand I've had them in my car for over a year now, I have no complaints. The amps give lost of power, I've had the 500/1 pushing Kicker 12L7 didn't have the SQ but was good SPL. Now with the 250/1 with a 12W3 I've been very happy with the SQ and recomended JL amp.

I am impressed with the SQ of JL Audio.  The 300/4 is powering my Boston SL 60 components as well as Boston SL95 6X9's, the sound quality is amazing.  I have tried several brands over the years and am very impressed with the JL products.  I am thinking about purchasing JL subs to replace my Kicker Solobarics. 

Hope this helps in some way.

Nodestiny wrote:

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Though JL audio is good stuff, you pay for it. A lot. JL Audio is overpriced IMO. Mainly because they know they are in the main stream with RF, Kicker, and all the big names. There is better for the money... in fact... i could point you to a sub that will beat the W7 in a pure SQ comparison (even in a smaller box) for about 1/3 to 1/4 the price. Not trying to argue, but i would hate to see everybody jump on that bandwagon without realizing they could spend less and be just as happy (happier actualy, since they spent less :D )

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Okay, I'll bite. What is this sub you speak of, since you conveniently left it out of your post?...

I would bet that most people buy a ferrari for more than just to go stupid-fast vroom vroom...

Why buy a car when you can ride a horse? They both get you to the same destination. Why buy a mansion when you can buy a one-room shack. They both protect you from the elements. Why buy a SeaDoo when you can swim? Both run outta gas eventually. I could go on and on with the analogies if you want to use that sort of circular logic

And I believe JL has a 3 year warranty on their stuff (if installed by a professional). Otherwise you are correct.

What if you have room for only one sub? Then you're screwed on the output part of your equation, Nodestiny, with similar sound quality (I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that the Dayton sub will sound "better" than the W7 in terms of sound quality strictly based on DUMAX numbers, either). I personally would spend the money on the "ferrari", but to each his own...

Very nicely put, Nodestiny. At least you took the time to illustrate the facts behind the opinion. Too often people just say, "Brand X sucks, you can do better for less" and then really can't back up their opinion with anything other than personal bias. Not to say you're right *wink wink*, but nevertheless...

I've been on vacation or I would have responded earlier. On page 2 Diomonoson was talking about class "A" amps vs. class "B" or class "C" amps. I think you're missing the terms here. Class "A" refers to non-switching amplification. This means there are only one set of outputs per channel. These are very expensive and are used in higher end equipment because unlike a class "A/B" amp they do not switch between one set of smaller outputs ( used at low power needs ) to a more powerful ( but only used to cover peaks ) larger set of outputs. This is a much more economical way of producing large amounts of power, but since the " switch " can be heard as a lack of smoothness and a "warm" sound in high end systems it is much less desirable. Old school tube amps were also class "A". My question is , since speakers, cd players and all other non amplifier audio equipment don't have output drivers, how can these also be class "A"? And, what is class "B" or "C"?

A few other ideas..... JL dealers can inspect any customer made encloser and if it is tight and built to spec. they can sign off on it and the sub gets full warranty. JL products bought on-line will not be repaired by JL in or OUT of warranty. Opinions on equipment in this forum are just that....opinions on favorite equipment.

Nodestiny wrote:

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 And really, could anybody argue against DUMAX? I mean, Dumax basicly displays the sound of SCIENCE, and its not easy to argue science... 

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Actually, I could.  But because of my position, I really can't get into the details.  We prefer Klippel reports though as they have quite a bit more information, and are more accurate.   This I believe is what JL uses to engineer their subs. But if you really want to compare DUMAX reports, then that is fine. 

Here's a DUMAX report for the Dayton driver: https://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-404dumax.pdf

And here's a DUMAX report for the W7: https://www.adireaudio.com/Files/DUMAX/JL-10W7.pdf

Of note is the curves shown on the bottom.  They give you quite a bit of information on the "SQ" of the subs.  The less of a change in BL or Kms with excursion, the lower the distortion will be produced.  If you notice, both the BL and Kms curves are parabolic on the Dayton unit.  However the W7's are very flat and extended.  This means that it will produce less distortion over a much larger range of excursion.  This is why I really like the JL as a company.  They have some very good engineers working for them trying to make the best speakers possible.  The W7 IMO is one of the better SQL subs on the market, matched in performance by very few.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

But does it really sound quite the same? Power doesn't equate to great sound.

Have you you actually set up an a/b comparison? Sounds like you are caught up in the big power hype. That xxx sub is an spl sub, not really a sql or sq sub, obviously. 

And soundstream has certainly lost some of its clout as it is another company who has fallen victim to cheap over-seas manufacturing, you hype soundstream like they pay you.

I've heard good things about the Dayton subs, but I still don't think they stack up to a W7 (without doing an actual comparison, so this is opinion only).

By the way, has anyone heard the Gotham or Fathom HT subs from JL Audio? They look pretty sweet but I've never actually seen or heard one...

spl144 wrote:

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 ...dont get me wrong JL is good stuff just not for the price for example the W7 has been compared to the MTX  THUNDER 9500 subs and hands down the MTX SUBS are better  for about $300 less pure sub

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Better how? In SPL? That would be a correct statement, as the W7 was not designed to be a pure SPL subwoofer, whereas the MTX 9500 series were (more than the W7, anyway ). Otherwise your statement is way too broad and misleading to be true or accurate.

Nodestiny wrote:

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By all means, I wouldnt say the Dayton MKIII driver is more superior than the W7. Simply, that for the money, for somebody looking for a great SQ sub without spending a ton of cash on it, its a great alternative. The Xmax alone would make the W7 a better SQL driver, but when it comes to nothing but SQ (response) of the driver itself, I wouldnt have a problem putting the MKIII up against the W7. When it comes to output and the distortion rating at those higher outputs, no comparison, the W7 wins. But if Mr. Rodgers came to me and had no care in the world of "bumping" or SPL what so ever, why wouldnt somebody save a few bux and go with the Dayton?......................

So i wont argue the W7 is a BETTER sub, thats obvious. But when you throw the hefty price tag in there, and since not everybody can/wants to afford the W7, there is alternatives.

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Oh, I agree that the W7 is very expensive and isn't for everyone.  However you don't tell a Porsche owner that he could have saved a lot of money by buying a Hundai.  Some people want the best and are willing to pay for it.  For those that don't, well there are quite a few alternatives out there including a good value like the Dayton. 

Nodestiny wrote:

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  I really couldnt see the average pure SQ install using enough Xmax from a good SQ sub to cause distortion, without doing some very strong front end mids/highs. At that point, doing multiple subs will help.

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I think you would be surprised. Do you have much experience listening to a flat BL sub in a system whether home or car?  It's not uncommon for THD levels to be up above 30-40% in subwoofers even before reaching reference levels.  The distortion levels are very audible in even a pure SQ install, and some people are willing to spend extra money to make it less audible.

As for multiple subs, that usually isn't an option for most car installs.  This requires more power and more enclosure space which a lot of people aren't willing to give up.  Subs like the W7 aren't for everyone, but they do have their purpose in the market.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Nodestiny wrote:

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A lot of companies have their subs built overseas anymore. Why? Quality and cost. I had a good talk with Tracy at Kicker about this a long time ago. They wanted to use American companies, but they just did not stack up to international purchases. Much like when foreign cars first came to america, and everybody realized how much more reliable they were, hence, why they got so HUGE in america (come on, you were comparing a honda civic to a muscle car...)

So its not a bad thing to have your equipment built elsewhere ;)

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I've got to totally agree with you on this one.  Just because something is built in China doesn't mean it is of lesser quality than an American made one.  There are some very good manufacturers over there that can produce the same quality stuff for a fraction of the price.  And I think people would be surprised at how many speaker manufacturers get their stuff from over there. 

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio