Why Does My Subwoofer Sound Delayed?

Having recently bought a Rockford Punch sub+enclosure, the "thump" from the sub sounds like it's delayed from the rest of the music. This is especially noticable when listening to techno, as the beats are more precise.

Setup is as follows:
Pioneer CQ-C5410U Head Unit
Sony XM-something amp (this is old. 4 channels.)
Infinity refrence speakers. Rears are 2-way, fronts are component. All are 6".
Audiobahn A2002T amp driving the Rockford Punch P1.

What would cause this "delay" in my bass?

try switching the polarity on the sub woofer, either your head unit will have that option, the sub amp possibly, , just switch between 0 and 180 , , or you can go directly to the wires on the amp going to the sub and swap the + and - wires.

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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.

Yeah I agree Alpine Guy, sounds like a phase issue

Today I used a 9volt battery to check all my speakers and sub for polarity. I found one front speaker was out of phase with the rest of the system and fixed that.

There still seems to be some delay though. I messed with settings on my HU and found that if I turn off the high pass filter, the delay seems to go away. More testing with a sine wave generated in SoundForge at 50 Hz revealed that even with the high pass filter set at 90 Hz, I could still hear the tone very plainly from the mid-range speakers.

All this leads me to believe that my deck sucks and I should get a new one. Something about the built-in filters is causing wierd problems with my bass tones. I am currently researching new head units. Any input would be great- the only "gotta-have" is either an aux in jack or some kind of iPod connector/controller.

Eclipse, or Alpine

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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.

All this leads me to believe that my deck sucks and I should get a new one. Something about the built-in filters is causing wierd problems with my bass tones. I am currently researching new head units. Any input would be great- the only "gotta-have" is either an aux in jack or some kind of iPod connector/controller.

OK, get a new deck......................I thinking that will,  not solve your problem..... Look at the way your sub is "hooked up" you MUST have a polarity problem,,,,,,,,,,,,,K

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KarTuneMan, can you offer any hints on checking my sub then? I spent all day today doing just that and found to errors. All my speakers are in phase (they all pulse outward when connected briefly to a 9v battery. I don't know what else I should check.

I even reversed the polarity of the sub for kicks and noticed no improvement.

if your REALLY concered about your system. go to a car stereo shop, and ask for a phase shifter, or the sort. i THINK phoenix gold makes one, not totally sure on that. i dunno if this will solve your prob though.


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xTimx

Kartune, you really didn't help there at all. "look at your sub setup, something is wrong there" He obviously doesn't see anything wrong, so giving him a suggestion as to WHAT it might be would help... I'd like to know what is so obviously wrong about his setup that is so apparent.

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1998 Monte Carlo w/
Eclipse CD8454
2xRockford 5.25" Power 2-way T152C
2xRockford 6"x9" Punch 3-way FRC4369
1xMemphis 16-MCH1300 5-channel
2xKicker 12" L5 Solobaric-2 Ohm

Brian, a couple of points:  you said you tested polarity by using the battery test.  That's good for finding out if all the interior mid speakers are in phase with each other, which you said you corrected...but it's not the way to test the sub output's relationship with the mids.  Instead, just do the reversing of polarity at the amp where the sub wires are connected.  Go back to the driver's seat, with trunk lid closed, and listen using your control track on the CD (the song that shows the problem most).  If you find that reversing polarity on the sub doesn't make any difference at all, then it's not a polarity issue.

Next, try enough different music sources on CD, preferably new store-bought recordings, that you can absolutely rule out faults in the recording process.

Then, eliminate what might be an overuse of crossovers.  You said you turned the HP off at the deck and the problem disappeared.  Try this:  turn all settings on the deck to flat 0.  No crossing over at the deck...period.  Use the HP and LP filters on the amps instead.  See if that cures it.

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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

this is a common problem i've seen with people wanting big subwoofers for big sound, but neglect to pay attention to the type of music they listen to mostly. i'm going to take a wild guess that the subwoofer in question is 12" or bigger. ideally, for 12" subs, you'd want to set the low-pass filter at around 50 - 80 hz. this will make r&b music, rap, hip hop stuff sound great, but not techno. the beat of techno music tends to be fairly short and quick. the subwoofer, emitting frequencies under 80 hz, won't be able to react quick enough, because 12" and larger subs operate ideally with longer excursions and longer notes.

also, since the beat to techno music is strongest at about 100+ hz, the listener will find that the beat is not strong enough coming out of a sub set at under 80 hz. the result is you'd tend to increase your bass settings and gains, resulting in an even more pronounced time delay.

the moral of the story? try setting the lowpass cross-over at a higher frequency, turn down the bass setting, and see if there's any improvement. you may find better response from a smaller subwoofer too.

good luck!

btw, your h/u is a panasonic, not a pioneer. i'm not all that familiar with that model, but i know it's fairly high up in the model range....it wouldn't happen to have some form of sound positioning or delay features, would it?

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all problems can be resolved with a hammer

Thank you stevdart and jimmee for your suggestions. I will spend some more time fiddling with settings tonight or tomorrow. Also, you're right, its a panasonic, not a pioneer deck. Thinking one thing and typing another, I guess.

In a perfect world, what sort of sub would you reccommend for techno music jimmee?

for techno music, the largest i would choose is 10". if available, i'd even go for an 8" subwoofer. nowadays, however, 8" subs have died out in popularity, so most manufacturers do not have much in terms of selection or quality in that size.


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all problems can be resolved with a hammer

The size of the woofer has very little to do with it's "quickness".  An 18" speaker can have just as good transient response as a 10".  It all depends on the design.  Here's a great technical article on this: https://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf .  And here's a couple videos of one of our 12's playing full range: https://www.woofervids.com/displayimage.php?album=7&pos=40   https://www.woofervids.com/displayimage.php?album=7&pos=41  As you can see, the speaker has no problems playing even higher midrange frequencies. 

The upper end extention of a driver is effected mainly by it's inductance and cone break-up.  Although you shouldn't run a subwoofer above 80 Hz anyway. You should instead have a good set of front speakers that can play down that low as frequencies higher than that are directional.  I have my sub crossed over very sharply (72 dB per octave digital slope) at 79 Hz and listen to a lot of techno.  I have no problem with transient response.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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HOLLY CRAP! 72db/oct? Why such a sharp curve?

And why a higher xover point (assuming for SQ setup)? I know you are affiliated with Adire, so I know you have access to some damn nice midbass up front... :D

Just curious, because my setup is pretty well on the sound stage and transition with a front end of 50Hz HP @ 12db/oct (though would like to go a bit higher, such as 18, maybe even 24 on this) and an 18db oct LP on the subs at 50Hz.

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04 dodge neon SXT
(2) Oz Audio Matrix Elite 12"s sealed in 4 cube fiberglass enclosure, powered by HiFonics BX1605D
Oz Audio Matrix 180cs 6.5" component set power by HiFonics ZX4000

The processor is an old Sony ES XDP-4000X digital processor.  Although it blows almost every other processor away in it's precision in other area's, it is rather lacking in the crossover points provided.  Basically on the sub channel I have a choice of 36 or 72 dB per octave slopes at 78 Hz or 99 Hz.  So I have to make do.  I may change it out in the future if we ever come out with our own processors.  But with it's precision in the EQ/level setting area I should be able to make it work great anyway.  If you are curious, here's a site with the DSC software that controls it: https://www.matronics.com/4kcontrol/

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

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Ahhh, i see. Didnt phoenix gold come out with a processor/EQ like this with computer linkup?

Kind of weird hearing somebody actualy say something GOOD about Sony Mobile products :D

I know Oz Audio is going to have their new high end amps out in a few months, and it mentions computer linkup (but doesnt say what for, they wont let me in on their secrects, sadly :D).

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04 dodge neon SXT
(2) Oz Audio Matrix Elite 12"s sealed in 4 cube fiberglass enclosure, powered by HiFonics BX1605D
Oz Audio Matrix 180cs 6.5" component set power by HiFonics ZX4000

Old Sony ES was probably some of the best gear on the market at the time.  Well except for maybe their $15k XES system.  It wasn't until they came out with Xplod crap and the cancellation of the ES line that they went down hill.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio 

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true, and true.  as i'm in the process of looking for a new head unit, i often miss my cdx-c90 mobile es.  never got the processor though

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MECP certified, 5yrs experience, you probably otta listen bitch!!

Just an update- I got rid of the panasonic head unit and put in an Alpine 9855. My delay problems are a think of the past, and this Alpine is totally awesome! Thanks again to everyone for your help!