Printer Friendly Forum Posts - Upgrade on new internals. Suggestions?

Ok, the time has come to upgrade the internals, As we can get by with the set of alpine type R components up front and 5 1/4 co-ax's in the rear, it just isn't cutting it anymore.

We power our internals off a diamond audio d5 600.4
75x4@4

I am probably going to look into a component set for both the front and rear, I am doing this beacause I want people in the rear to have the sound quality I have up front, I dont believe in Rear fill, I want full blown in the rear.

eventually we will by amp each set of components front and rear with its own amp.

Also has anyone had any experience with the JVC KDAX1?
Its a in dash DVD player with a 3.5 inch screen on the face. Anyone?

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2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place

Come on Jeff, you need to start listening to some components. I could rattle off so many brands, some with hard dome and others with soft dome tweeters.

Maybe a price range will narrow it down a little more.

If you really want to go the right way, look in to a high quality three way system, or a good 2 way system with a dedicated woofer.

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We are currently considering a 3 way system, but I am actually yet to hear one in effect.   I have installed front setups with dual speakers but it was mainly for looks.    As far as a price range I would like to stay withen $200-$300 a set, But If the price goes over and its worth it then I would consider it.

I just really feel that the Type R's are lacking in the Low end/Mid section.      Anthing below 150hz has to be set very low to keep them from distorting at High levels.

I am currently looking into some of the Adire Products, as I have not tried any yet, and heard nothing but good things about them.

Another Note, I will not be going with a Hard dome tweeter again, I am not happy with the sound at all.   I think it would be best to find a soft dome tweeter 1", as we run them in a sail panel.

I dont care if name's match between the tweeter and Mid, but it would be nice.   Anyone who has tried the Adire stuff out let me know

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2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place

kk listen, ur lookin at a price range of 200-300, why not treat urself with a pair of rainbow speakers, maybe Rainbow CS265.25 Germanium or the RE xxx 6.5 component set( heard that they have a nice bassy sound to em) these are pure quality and will spread themselves ova da whole range of sound. no problems. i got myself da slx series which r a little under these but they sound wicked, and im expecting that these will sound even better.

if u want a very high end set then there is nothing past MOREL. these r da best, period! but they r expensive

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6* Rockford T2's
6* POWER AMPs
BLACK CORRADO
BAANNGGIINN

Yes, Rainbows are nice. Yes, Morel's are nice (although they are NOT necessarily "the best." There is no such thing as the 'best" and I would put several comp sets in the same category as anything from Morel.) But hey, Jeff said $200 to 300, not $600 to $1000.

For something in your price range, listen to some Diamond D660, Oz Matrix, MBQ PCE, Focal Polyglass, Infinity Kappa... I'm sure there are others that sound equally nice. But like I tell everyone, listen and buy what sounds good to you.

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I wish it was that easy Dyohn. In my area and even withen about 100 miles everyone carrys junk. If I want crossfire components alright, or anything from best buy which they have declined greatly in carring top end equipment. SO I guess I will have to make the 2 hour trip to KC one weekend and venture the shops there. I really want to find something soon, gonna be taking a road trip in the next month and want to get them in before we leave

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2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place

OK Jeff, just because I lived in Cameron for a year and understand what it feels like to be in a place that considers Target "high-end shopping," I'll break my own advice and suggest you try THESE. I found this deal Saturday and ordered a set for myself as I couldn't pass up the price.

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let me know when you try them out what you think of them..if you lived in cameron, where fo you live now? I am up in good old maryville. BIG CITY LIVIN haha

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2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place

I was born in Hannibal, and moved to Cameron chasing a job for a year before I joined the Navy. I've lived all over the US and in a couple of other countries, but been here in the SF Bay area of N. California now since '79.

CDT comps with the silk domes tend to have a pretty neutral high end and punchy midbass. I intend to install these into my wife's car when they arrive, so I'll let you know what I think, for what that's worth! :)

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that will work, we are really looking for something that will.....I dont know how to describe it besides the fact I want them to be an all around really really nice speaker. We intend to branch back in having video in this car again so having very smooth transitions and the ability to reproduce sounds evenly is about what were looking for. I dont know if that really made sence Im kinda tired right now, All I know is the Alpine Type R components just dont cut it in my book anymore

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2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place

sup jeff
just fit one of those jvc h/u today into hyundai tiburon. nice little screen. didnt sound too bad with factory speaker set up. the gloss black did look a bit odd against the silver dash. customer was happy though. what did you need to know about that deck anyway?

Yo DYohn:

I just took a set of Classic Series 525's out of my Corolla last week.

"CDT comps with the silk domes tend to have a pretty neutral high end and punchy midbass." <--- thats a pretty much dead on assessment of them tonally.. even with the tweeter set to "+3dB" it still was quite soft... on the lowest setting I'd even call it limp.. and I'm usually bothered by brighter speakers. I actually found that if I used a JL VR series x-over with them they would take on some of the JL's much more bright etched sound..

The midbass was much more powerful than the JL Audio VR-series componets that I replaced with them... still they couldn't handle the power I have for them ... I found them giving before I was happy with the output...

Perhaps with haemphyst's EQX the midbasses would be worth another shot... my VR midbasses came back from JL and I swapped that set back in ... thats another post though..

I'm *very* curious to hear your opinion of these speakers.. my ultimate assessment was rather positive.. I *loved* them tonally, but the detail and power-handling left me a little cold. Not a set I could keep. If I had less than 150 watts for them .. say a nice 50 watts a channel... I think they'd been perfect.

I'll tell ya, they left me really wanting to hear a set of the HD series..

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"I'm finished!" - Daniel Plainview

dwarren wrote:

If you really want to go the right way, look in to a high quality three way system

NO

For the best sound quality ALWAYS try to have as few crossover points as possible.

I would recommend piecing together your own drivers. For the tweeter use a pro audio compression driver with a "small" horn crossing it over at ~6khz~8khz. Then find a nice mid-range that can play from ~120hz through 10khz with a relatively flat response. Crossover the mid range over just above the point that the horn response begins to fall off. Use a ~12dB slope for the mid and a 18dB slope when crossing over the horn. Then look into a descent quality sub. That will total to a three way system. Dwarren's suggestion totaled to a 4-way system.

Remember, crossovers are BAD

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Crossovers are BAD? How do you figure, what are you getting at here?

What's wrong with what you labeled as a 4 way system?

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I completely disagree with the notion that crossovers are somehow "bad" or need to be minimized.

Crossovers are one of the most important components in any sound system. A properly designed and constructed crossover is a thing of beauty, a work of art, and will determine how a speaker system sounds. Show me a multiple element loudspeaker system without a crossover somewhere in the signal chain and I'll show you a loudspeaker that will sound like crap. A properly designed crossover can make marginal speakers sound very good indeed. And yes, a poorly designed or contructed crossover, or one that is misused, or one being used with the wrong speakers, can really really sound bad. But there is nothing inherently bad about crossovers, they are 100% necessary in any audio application. Even so-called "full range" systems use crossovers (or at least notch filters, which are basically the same things.)

A properly designed and constructed three or four way speaker system can be the best sound you have ever heard. Even five and six way, depending on the applicaiton. My car uses a 4-way system.

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And oh by the way, the CDT speakers apparently arrived today so I'll be able to check them out over the weekend. posted_image

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sounds good. I was flipping through the parts express catalog and thought wow I would love to buy some of the morel home audio stuff. anyone know if morel is sold online anywhere. there are no dealers in the area

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2009 0-1000 Trunk WR 154.0DB 2009 1001+ Trunk WR
2007 USACI World Champion
2007 World Record
2006 USACI Finals 2nd Place

So now that you have an idea on internals, what are you going to do about externals?

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Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

Poormanq45 wrote:

NO

What is with you and inspiring arguements
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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

dwarren wrote:

The real question is why so many damn question marks?

Are you questioning me ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

I question EVERYTHING................................................................................... ok.

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dwarren wrote:

I question EVERYTHING................................................................................... ok.

So does poorman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

jeffchilcott wrote:

sounds good. I was flipping through the parts express catalog and thought wow I would love to buy some of the morel home audio stuff. anyone know if morel is sold online anywhere. there are no dealers in the area

Morel speakers kill, in my opinion. I use their tweeters in almost all my home theatre designs. Their car audio stuff is really nice, if a bit pricey. If you want accuracy and high power handling, Morel is near the top of the heap. Phoenix Gold Elite systems use Morel speakers.

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Poormanq45 wrote:

dwarren wrote:

If you really want to go the right way, look in to a high quality three way system

NO

For the best sound quality ALWAYS try to have as few crossover points as possible.

I would recommend piecing together your own drivers. For the tweeter use a pro audio compression driver with a "small" horn crossing it over at ~6khz~8khz. Then find a nice mid-range that can play from ~120hz through 10khz with a relatively flat response. Crossover the mid range over just above the point that the horn response begins to fall off. Use a ~12dB slope for the mid and a 18dB slope when crossing over the horn. Then look into a descent quality sub. That will total to a three way system. Dwarren's suggestion totaled to a 4-way system.

Remember, crossovers are BAD

No, *HORNS* are bad... Dynamic drivers with a properly designed crossover will ALWAYS sound better, present a flatter frequency response to an RTA, exhibit less lobing, and in MOST cases, be preferred by those that know what they are listening to.

In the car, where you are generally WAY off axis, more drivers is usually a mandate, to improve the sound power throughout the listening area, and therefore, crossovers cannot be bad - they are necessary. I did say "properly designed". While it is true that a poorly designed crossover IS bad, if done correctly, there is no way they can be bad...

If you are really worried about passive crossovers, go active... and digital...

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."

I question everything.

A three way system is significantly more complicated to make sound good rather than a two way system. Not only are you dealing with vastly different sensitivities, you also have to deal with acoustic delay, phase, complex impedance curves, tonality, lobing, and other issues with each new driver you introduce

When using multiple drivers it is advantageous to use one driver for the critical operating range, about 500Hz to 6kHz. By relegating the negative affects of crossover and multiple driver balancing to the range outside our ear's most sensitive frequency area vastly improves the sound we hear.

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ham]No wrote:

*HORNS* are bad... Dynamic drivers with a properly designed crossover will ALWAYS sound better, present a flatter frequency response to an RTA, exhibit less lobing, and in MOST cases, be preferred by those that know what they are listening to.

EEK! Misinformation.

The THD of a good 2" throat high range compression driver on a properly engineered exponential horn is so low compared to any direct radiator for the same SPL. The excursion at all volume levels is extremely small even when operating at/near the horn cutoff.

As for the dispersion. A 90 x 15/30 lateral x vertical would give you FULL coverage.

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Poormanq45 wrote:

I question everything.

Which can get annoying sometimes, my friend!

Poormanq45 wrote:

A three way system is significantly more complicated to make sound good rather than a two way system. Not only are you dealing with vastly different sensitivities, you also have to deal with acoustic delay, phase, complex impedance curves, tonality, lobing, and other issues with each new driver you introduce

When using multiple drivers it is advantageous to use one driver for the critical operating range, about 500Hz to 6kHz. By relegating the negative affects of crossover and multiple driver balancing to the range outside our ear's most sensitive frequency area vastly improves the sound we hear.

The above can be true for a beginner or someone who really doesn't know what they're doing. But for a person experienced in loudspeaker design, the oposite is true and makes up the most fun part of the process. Using multiple drivers solves way more problems than it creates, as you can "cover" for resonances and poor response bands (every speaker has these) by properly designing the crossover and handing off to a driver better able to handle the troublesome band, and by taking advantage of multiple drivers in the same band increasing efficiency in that band. Easier than using multiple notch filters and pads. And if someone building a system does not understand how to deal with differing sensitivities, phase changes, impedence, lobing, or acoustic time alignment, then that person should not be designing the crossover. This is my experience and my opinion, and there are those who will disagree, especially the advocates of the mythical "single-full-range-driver." I have yet to hear one that I can accept as "hi fi," however.

As to horns in general, I think they sound great in a long-throw outdoor sound reinforcement system. I hate them for stereo (yes even Klipsch) and I especially think they are the wrong solution in a car. But again, that's just my opinion.

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I mostly agree with you, when done properly you can't even tell that there is a crossover in the system(which is the goal), BUT in my experience I would have to say that at least 50% of the premade component set's crossovers are acceptable to good, I have yet to find one that is AWESOME.

I have found few more systems that use only two drivers to cover the 50~20khz range that sound awesome, unfortunately these were in home applications where size is not an issue.

About the horns not being appropriate for cars: I mostly agree with this, but you know, multiple subwoofers arn't appropriate in cars either. So if you want your mids/highs to match your lows you almost have to go with horns. Besides: You have to love the fact that you can feed a compression driver 10w RMS and get insanely loud volumes. I have yet to find a cone/dome driver that even compares.

ANyway, I think this just comes down to different opinions.

About the single driver for the whole range. Multiple companies have already made AWESOME full range drivers. That's not a problem. The problem is preventing doppler distortion/modulation at reference volumes, which isn't physically possible. So for "average" listening, ~80~85dB, a single full range driver will sound awesome. Bose used to use single full range drivers in their car systems. They sound great at low volumes, but at higher volumes they experience horrible compression

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