substained alternator abuse
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=60772
Printed Date: July 03, 2025 at 3:48 AM
Topic: substained alternator abuse
Posted By: 6061dyson
Subject: substained alternator abuse
Date Posted: August 05, 2005 at 3:31 PM
Hey der, im running a 1.4 litre petrol Pugeot 306 and my amp is really dimming my lights at certain volumes and hz.
Interestingly enough, at 20 on my HU it really hits my Headlights dim!!! But at 32, its not as bad as the volume might sugest.
Through substained abuse am i looking at a catastrophic failure i.e dead battery n a fried alternator, or a slow demise? My Amps a RF 551s pushing out 582 watts. My heads units just Panasonic (super basic) 4 x 50 peak watts. ? 1 farad power cap best upgrade? or a beffer battery? I am looking to install a second 4 channel amp pushing out around 400 RMS combined and new HU before Xmas, soooo whats best?
Replies:
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 05, 2005 at 3:35 PM
are your lights dimming etc when the music's turned down? If not, your elec system is probably fine. About the volume control at different levels, are you using the "loudness" button? IF so, it's effect will go away at higher volumes, reducing the bass output & power consumption. Best guess anyway.
Posted By: Blowntweeters
Date Posted: August 05, 2005 at 4:29 PM
your best bet for your problem would be an H.O. alternater but there is not one for that car and caps are junk so i would suggest a kinetik battery and some fabrication to make one of the larger ones fit your car www.kinetikaudio.com ------------- 1974 ford pinto 4 15" punch Z power punch bd 1001 pioneer DEH-6700
Posted By: 6061dyson
Date Posted: August 06, 2005 at 3:42 PM
Ah thanks, new battery, most easily solving the prob unless i can find a alternator supplier/maker.
Power caps really suck? Why? please elaborate
In answer to boulder guy, YES my loudness button is always on. And the problem still diminishes with the volume set at a higher level (so 20 is gd SQ, gd volume at moderate speeds windows down, VERY DIM headlights very sensitive to bass nots.... 32 is maxing out headunit powered standard speakers and thumping HARD, headunits dimms moderately at specific notes my sub setup excels in)
Strange huh,
Thanks for the battery supplier BT.
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 06, 2005 at 3:55 PM
Easiest solution would be turn off the loudness button. By nature, Loudness only works at lower volumes & tapers off as you turn it up. The idea is to accentuate the bass & treble at lower volumes when they're less noticeable, then "dissolve" once you give it more juice. That's why your problem disappears at higher volume. If you like the sound of "loudness," then by all means keep it & go with a new battery - that's a good start. A capacitor would be a good idea imo because it will lessen your headlight dimming problem. Some people think they're worthless, others swear by them. I believe they're great for solving problems like yours. I don't think they do much of anything for overall sound quality tho, and in that respect are waaaay over-rated as marketing hype - I imagine BT would agree. It will definitely help with the headlights.
Posted By: Blowntweeters
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 11:21 AM
a cap is like putting a band aid on a gun shoot wound is just not enough it would help with the headlights because caps give your amp less power because they add more resistance also don't give up on the alternater yet call all the local auto eletric shops and if you find a guy that knows what he's doing the shop can take your stock alternater and rebuild it with higher output ------------- 1974 ford pinto 4 15" punch Z power punch bd 1001 pioneer DEH-6700
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 5:13 PM
Blowntweeters wrote:
a cap is like putting a band aid on a gun shoot wound is just not enough it would help with the headlights because caps give your amp less power because they add more resistance also don't give up on the alternater yet call all the local auto eletric shops and if you find a guy that knows what he's doing the shop can take your stock alternater and rebuild it with higher output
Yes a cap is a band aid - sometimes that's all you need tho. No it doesn't give your amp less power or increase the resistance, unless you're talking about the added resistance of a connection point atop the cap (which is virtually nothing), that's just asinine. If you're actually concerned about those issues, wire it downstream of the distro block. It's basically just a reservoir. If I'm wrong on those points, someone show me the physics.
Posted By: Blowntweeters
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 6:06 PM
i'm not going to show you any physics i was at a local SPL comp in 01 there was a rockford rep there and my friend and i installed a cap between runs the second run we hit . 3 db lower only thing changed was the cap was installed
-------------
1974 ford pinto 4 15" punch Z power punch bd 1001 pioneer DEH-6700
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 6:19 PM
Blowntweeters wrote:
i'm not going to show you any physics i was at a local SPL comp in 01 there was a rockford rep there and my friend and i installed a cap between runs the second run we hit . 3 db lower only thing changed was the cap was installed
Which tells us one of two things - Either the laws of physics didn't apply at your local SPL comp, or you & your friend did something wrong. I mean seriously - that's the only basis for your broad, sweeping conclusion that "caps are junk they don't help they suck power and add resistance to your amp"?!?
Posted By: Blowntweeters
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 7:06 PM
boulderguy let me ask you this do you have a cap in your car and how can a cap magicly charge faster than a battery i have had so many costumers pissed because someone sold them a cap told them how great it was then i installed it and they were pissed they go some extra lights for $100 plus bucks caps are a waste of money alternaters and kinetik batterys are the way to go
-------------
1974 ford pinto 4 15" punch Z power punch bd 1001 pioneer DEH-6700
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 8:05 PM
Blowntweeters wrote:
boulderguy let me ask you this do you have a cap in your car and how can a cap magicly charge faster than a battery
Yup, I've got a cap - keeps my headlights from going into seizures. Probably doesn't help the sound. Lots of people think they will & are ultimately disappointed. Here's what they can do - The difference between a capacitor and a battery is that a capacitor can dump its entire charge in a tiny fraction of a second, where a battery would take minutes to completely discharge itself. That's why the electronic flash on a camera uses a capacitor -- the battery charges up the flash's capacitor over several seconds, and then the capacitor dumps the full charge into the flash tube almost instantly. This can make a large, charged capacitor extremely dangerous -- flash units and TVs have warnings about opening them up for this reason. They contain big capacitors that can, potentially, kill you with the charge they contain. Capacitors are used in several different ways in electronic circuits: - Sometimes, capacitors are used to store charge for high-speed use. That's what a flash does. Big lasers use this technique as well to get very bright, instantaneous flashes.
- Capacitors can also eliminate ripples. If a line carrying DC voltage has ripples or spikes in it, a big capacitor can even out the voltage by absorbing the peaks and filling in the valleys.
So no magic involved, just physics. Blowntweeters wrote:
then i installed it and they were pissed they go some extra lights for $100 plus bucks
This makes less sense than a fat kid playing dodgeball. Are you familiar with punctuation? Blowntweeters wrote:
caps are a waste of money alternaters and kinetik batterys are the way to go
Upgrading your elec system is sound advice when warranted, but how many of your customers have spent $600 to upgrade when they could have solved their problem with a $60 cap? That's what I'm driving at here - you're handing out strong opinions & advice about how worthless something is based on a .3db loss at an SPL contest, which more likely came from 100 other possible problems - hot amps, cool batteries, lower operating voltage, a loose screw in a speaker panel, temp changes - - any of these could easily cause a drop in SPL, but you're blaming it on a cap. This just makes no sense & the physics don't support you. That's like saying "I had engine trouble after using Amoco gas, hence gas is really bad for your engine." I think you need to re-evaluate some things.
Posted By: evanc
Date Posted: August 07, 2005 at 9:28 PM
In my opinion, which may not be correct, a capacitor in a car audio system would be used to fix minor dimming of the headlights, and thats about it. It will not help the audio/electrical system enough to make a difference, nor will it solve any major headlight issues.
If you are looking to do it right, of course the alternator would be the way to go. However, if you have 2 Lightning Audio 10's and a Pyle amp in your mothers old civic, chances are you are not going to be willing to drop the $300+ on an upgraded alternator and wiring.
Posted By: NicP
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 12:51 AM
if you think that caps add more resistance and cant understand why they have a cap can charge faster than a battery then obviously you dont have a very firm grasp of electronics
Caps arent the solution to every problem and i guess people expect them to be which is why there are so many people that hate them after they dont work
In this case a cap may be a perfect solution (depending on how much your lights are dimming) if you dont want to upgrade your alt/battery. Remember to upgrade those important 3 wires first tho!
Posted By: 6061dyson
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 8:50 PM
Im sorry, everyone was so close close to nearly falling out...
Which 3 important wires? Im thinking re wiring my alternator is gonna cost some shillings (yeah its all ghetto ol' skool down town here in blighty) BUT it may be the option for the problem to dissolve. Im hoping to add a another amp and new HU by Oct. 4 channel amp pushing out 100 watts per channel and new HU. I may add a screen or three with a DVD player in the back too but that'll be for later next yr. I DON'T believe in doing things in halves though so ill go for a 1.0 FARAD? CAP and a BETTER BATTERY for now for its ease in upgrading? or ?? ?
I WANT TO upgrade my power suply NOW though 100% for my *completed* install of 1 600RMS AMP A/B class btw, 1 4x50?60 HU, 1 4x100 Amp, ah yeh an pre amp of course, DVD player, and 2 screens of approx 7" +
Thanks guys all ya advice has been conflicting, amusing and insiting!
Posted By: 6061dyson
Date Posted: August 08, 2005 at 9:03 PM
Capcitors blow up eh? Good i can imagine....
hehehe,
Well im feeling you lot are gonna go for the alternator n battery now in my moment of clarity.
Pyle? Lightning Audio....  u really shouldn't use such bad language lol
Posted By: NicP
Date Posted: August 09, 2005 at 1:34 AM
https://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007801;p=
if you are thinking of upgrading your battery and alternator i wouldnt bother with a cap
Posted By: Paradigm
Date Posted: August 09, 2005 at 12:41 PM
dyson, Since it sounds like you are planning on upgrading your system sometime down the road, buying a capacitor to "solve" your problem now will be wasted money once you upgrade, in all liklihood. A capacitor does not solve any problem - it masks it. Sure, it "stops" the headlights from dimming, but guess what? Your vehicle's electrical system is still being overtaxed by the audio system! So your battery and/or alternator is sure to die sooner than ever expected or intended because of the original problem that was never really addressed to begin with. Everyone following along? Since you say that an alternator is out of the question, your next best bet would be to upgrade the battery in some way. It will still not "solve" the problem, but it will help you more now AND in the future than the capacitor will. ------------- VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2
Posted By: Paradigm
Date Posted: August 09, 2005 at 12:45 PM
And also upgrade the Big 3 - that alone will help you immensely  ------------- VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2
Posted By: 6061dyson
Date Posted: August 09, 2005 at 10:11 PM
Thanks Paradigm, fine words of advice.
new alternator and battery its seems should be done in conjuction with each other for it to be as good as "solved" and a propper job done.
THanks to all for there experience n wisdom.
Posted By: adrian12
Date Posted: August 12, 2005 at 3:33 AM
Hi there.Remember that their is no substitute for a good alternator.A capacitor is like a patch up job for a bigger problem.ie.the alternator.If you are planning to add an extra battery you must take note that it will only help when your vehicle is off.(parking lot listening)....So in my opinion there is no other choice but to upgrade your alternator
Posted By: maglin
Date Posted: August 12, 2005 at 11:54 AM
hey now. new battery, new alt, new cap. = teh allowed room for a new system. most times people do it bass ackwards. new system, alt goes, new alt. battery goes, new battery. lol.
it just seems to me, and i'm not an expert on it, but seems to be at least, that a cap is another thing that your car has to charge up. While the bass is hitting, your electrical system screams "NOT ME!", while its not hitting, the cap is screaming for a charge for teh next time the bass hits (half seconds later). so. adding a cap isn't like adding a bandaid, it seems, but a second wound, and only one of which you can keep pressure on at a time. lol. you're still going to die, even tho it seems like you're trying to save your own life.
... then again. i could be totally foobared in teh head, and totally off base here. lol.
good alt, good battery. just remember, nothing is perpetual. you put a bigger alt in the car, and make demands of it, its going to be demanding of your engine, and start to tax on other things too.
~~Vinn
Posted By: 6061dyson
Date Posted: August 12, 2005 at 7:58 PM
Sounds right to me. Just gotta avoid those "ah f*** " moments your stuck on a the side of bypass in the rain lol with your electrics anchoring you to the spot.
Posted By: Blowntweeters
Date Posted: August 12, 2005 at 9:03 PM
boulderguy wrote:
Blowntweeters wrote:
boulderguy let me ask you this do you have a cap in your car and how can a cap magicly charge faster than a battery
Yup, I've got a cap - keeps my headlights from going into seizures. Probably doesn't help the sound. Lots of people think they will & are ultimately disappointed. Here's what they can do - The difference between a capacitor and a battery is that a capacitor can dump its entire charge in a tiny fraction of a second, where a battery would take minutes to completely discharge itself. That's why the electronic flash on a camera uses a capacitor -- the battery charges up the flash's capacitor over several seconds, and then the capacitor dumps the full charge into the flash tube almost instantly. This can make a large, charged capacitor extremely dangerous -- flash units and TVs have warnings about opening them up for this reason. They contain big capacitors that can, potentially, kill you with the charge they contain. Capacitors are used in several different ways in electronic circuits: - Sometimes, capacitors are used to store charge for high-speed use. That's what a flash does. Big lasers use this technique as well to get very bright, instantaneous flashes.
- Capacitors can also eliminate ripples. If a line carrying DC voltage has ripples or spikes in it, a big capacitor can even out the voltage by absorbing the peaks and filling in the valleys.
So no magic involved, just physics. Blowntweeters wrote:
then i installed it and they were pissed they go some extra lights for $100 plus bucks
This makes less sense than a fat kid playing dodgeball. Are you familiar with punctuation?Blowntweeters wrote:
caps are a waste of money alternaters and kinetik batterys are the way to go
Upgrading your elec system is sound advice when warranted, but how many of your customers have spent $600 to upgrade when they could have solved their problem with a $60 cap? That's what I'm driving at here - you're handing out strong opinions & advice about how worthless something is based on a .3db loss at an SPL contest, which more likely came from 100 other possible problems - hot amps, cool batteries, lower operating voltage, a loose screw in a speaker panel, temp changes - - any of these could easily cause a drop in SPL, but you're blaming it on a cap. This just makes no sense & the physics don't support you. That's like saying "I had engine trouble after using Amoco gas, hence gas is really bad for your engine." I think you need to re-evaluate some things.
you hit it right on the head. a cap can dump it's entire charge in a tiny fraction of a second and guess what it can't charge that fast so it dumps its power and needs more so basiclly it masks the problem and makes it worse by demanding more power from your eletrical system ------------- 1974 ford pinto 4 15" punch Z power punch bd 1001 pioneer DEH-6700
Posted By: boulderguy
Date Posted: August 12, 2005 at 11:15 PM
Hey, you managed to squeeze in a period after that first sentence. Those grammer classes must be working out well for you. Why can't it charge that fast also? The cap doesn't pull power away from the other electronics in the system to my knowledge. Besides, it really doesn't store that much juice in the first place - don't let the size fool ya. Look, before this gets ugly let's go back to the original question - this guy's got a problem with his headlights doing disco. You're right in that the problem is that his elec system doesn't put out enough chutzpah and he would be best off by replacing his alt & battery. But what if he could save $500 by using a cap, what if that solved his immediate problem - would you still tell him to spend the extra money? Do you really think that's the right thing to do, all because of your SPL contest experience? You've clearly been around for a while, what you say shouldn't be so short-sighted.
Posted By: Blowntweeters
Date Posted: August 13, 2005 at 10:57 AM
it's not just that SPL comp it's also one install that really made me lean away from caps i installed a ton of soundstream gear in a 95 montecarlo and a 5 fared cap and every thing seemed good and after the bass hit hard 4 of five times the lights were dimming so bad you could just turned them off and it would be the same caps to me seem to work for a short time and then they can't seem to keep enough power if this guy can get buy with a yellow top or a cap great i would not tell him to spend more money and yes i failed english class my grammer is s***** IMO this guy is better of trying a yellow top or a kinetik battery
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1974 ford pinto 4 15" punch Z power punch bd 1001 pioneer DEH-6700
Posted By: NicP
Date Posted: August 14, 2005 at 1:24 AM
Blowntweeters wrote:
it's not just that SPL comp it's also one install that really made me lean away from caps i installed a ton of soundstream gear in a 95 montecarlo and a 5 fared cap and every thing seemed good and after the bass hit hard 4 of five times the lights were dimming so bad you could just turned them off and it would be the same caps to me seem to work for a short time and then they can't seem to keep enough power if this guy can get buy with a yellow top or a cap great i would not tell him to spend more money and yes i failed english class my grammer is s***** IMO this guy is better of trying a yellow top or a kinetik battery
Do you understand why the lights were dimming or do you just use it as a basis to draw a conclusion that caps suck? I'll happily explain it :)
Posted By: 6061dyson
Date Posted: August 14, 2005 at 10:33 AM
Whoa! Its not a moral thing at all!
I haven't even upgraded the big 3 wires yet, so im sure that'll really show the full extent to my dimming and whether a cap/alternator/ is the propper solution. Thing is, a basic 0.5 farad cap here is £70+. A days wages.
A 1.0 farad cap is £100+. SO they really aren't cheap!
e.g Rockford Fosgate CPCD10-03 Power digi cap £139
(i wanna avoid having anything like so nasty as Pyle)
How much do u get one in america?
Batteries
Optima Yellow Top YT S 5.5 - Model Number BCI D31 12V, 75Ah £251 (top line)
Optima Yellow top - Model Number BCI D51 12V, 41Ah £170 (bottom line)
Optima Red Top RT S 2.1 6V, 50Ah £113 (mid line)
Optima Yellow Top - D1000S # 12volt
# 1000 Cranking amps (SAE)
# 750 Cold Cranking amps (SAE) £179
Whats better value now? I hope this gives u an idea you can compare to your own experience of value and you can convert the info into model no. in the US for comparison.
Posted By: Blowntweeters
Date Posted: August 14, 2005 at 12:50 PM
NicP]< wrote:
>Blowntweeters wrote:
it's not just that SPL comp it's also one install that really made me lean away from caps i installed a ton of soundstream gear in a 95 montecarlo and a 5 fared cap and every thing seemed good and after the bass hit hard 4 of five times the lights were dimming so bad you could just turned them off and it would be the same caps to me seem to work for a short time and then they can't seem to keep enough power if this guy can get buy with a yellow top or a cap great i would not tell him to spend more money and yes i failed english class my grammer is s***** IMO this guy is better of trying a yellow top or a kinetik battery
Do you understand why the lights were dimming or do you just use it as a basis to draw a conclusion that caps suck? I'll happily explain it :)
i think i understand why the lights where dimming so bad if you would like to explain in detail what causes that feel free but the bottom line is you can store as much power as you want but if your eletrical system is not producing enough power in time you will use all the power that is stored and still have the same problem ------------- 1974 ford pinto 4 15" punch Z power punch bd 1001 pioneer DEH-6700
Posted By: NicP
Date Posted: August 15, 2005 at 6:42 AM
yes exactly, if the cars electrical system isnt producing enough power for your amps or whatever a cap will be of no use whatsoever, in fact it can make problems worse as you have seen in your experience
but if the cars electrical system just cant keep up with the peaks of output power the system wants to pull, but is still producing enough power on average overall, a cap will provide the power at times when the music peaks
Last time i checked here caps were 1/2 to 2/3 of the price of a battery but most importantly they are a hell of a lot smaller
Posted By: Paradigm
Date Posted: August 15, 2005 at 2:50 PM
boulderguy wrote:
...But what if he could save $500 by using a cap, what if that solved his immediate problem - would you still tell him to spend the extra money?
I highlighted that one word for a reason - A CAP WILL NOT SOLVE THIS PROBLEM OR ANY OTHER! That's as plain as I can state it. If the lights stop dimming after installing a cap, the problem is STILL THERE, it is just not noticable after the addition of the cap. His battery and stock alternator will die prematurely due to the continued strain on his electrical system, and now, instead of having saved $500 by getting the cap, he now has to pay 2-3 times that to replace the battery, alternator, and maybe even the electrical wiring in his vehicle. Is this beginning to sink in at all? Maybe a little? A teensy bit? I have a cap and have used a cap in all my systems. But it is not there to solve an electrical problem (just had to throw that in there an extra time just in case  ). ------------- VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2
Posted By: Blowntweeters
Date Posted: August 15, 2005 at 3:30 PM
back to the question for the money your best bet is to get the optima yellow top and if you can find an auto eletric shop that can rebuild you alternater to produce more power your problem will be solved for now and in the future ------------- 1974 ford pinto 4 15" punch Z power punch bd 1001 pioneer DEH-6700
Posted By: 6061dyson
Date Posted: August 16, 2005 at 6:20 AM
Thanks!
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