Dissatisfied with Alpine Amps

However, when it comes to real world experience, I'm still a noob, so maybe it's just me and not the amps.

I started off with a very simple upgrade for my 2004 Honda Civic 4 door sedan by replacing the factory head unit and speakers with an Alpine CDM-9823 and 2 pairs of Infinity Reference 6.5" coaxials.  As someone who had never owned an aftermarket system, I thought it sounded great.  In fact, everyone who rode in the car (casual listeners, not audiophiles), commented as to how crisp and clear the system sounded.

Of course that just made me want more, so I decided to have a 4 channel Alpine MRV-F240 installed.  That's where the trouble began.  Instead of improving the overall sound, it degraded it.  The same people who commented on how crisp and clear the previous system had sounded were equally unimpressed.

That led me to a series of equipment upgrades over the course of the next year that resulted in my current setup:

Eclipse CD 8443 Head Unit (8v preouts), JL Audio CSI-650 components up front (60W RMS), JL Audio CSX-650 coaxials on the rear deck (60W RMS), Alpine Type S 10" sub in a sealed box (300W RMS), and a 5-channel Alpine MRV-450 amp powering it all (4 x 50W RMS, 1 x 200W RMS).

I've done extensive research online.   I've set my gains using a multimeter.  I've set the equalizer using a SPL meter. I've tried time correction, different crossover frequencies, and virtually every other tuning trick I've read about.  Obviously, I've seen significant inprovements in some areas, but overall, I'm still not as happy as I was with my initial entry level setup.

I don't understand how that could be possible, so I must be doing something wrong.

As far as installs go, there the JL Audio CSI-650 woofers are mounted in the door locations, but they're attached to the door using plastic spacers that came with the Infinity coaxials, and the spacers were cut up in order to make them fit.  (That was the "professional" installer, not me).  I'm going to replace the damaged plastic spacers with MDF spacers and deaden the doors with dynamat.

The tweeters are installed properly (according to the JL Audio manual) near the top of the door panel, and are less than 12" from the woffers, so I'm not going to make any changes there. 

As far as wiring is concerned, the original installer ran 18 gauge speaker wire from the amp to the wiring harness behind the head unit and then spliced into the factory speaker wiring.   The power and signal cables all run along the passenger side.   I can wire the speakers to the amp directly using 16 gauge wire, and I can move the power cable to the driver side of the car, but from what I've read, that probably won't make much of a difference since I'm not hearing any alternator whine.

That leads me to the equipment, and the only common denominator in all of the various setups I've tried is the Alpine amps.   They're the only amps I've owned, so I have no basis for comparison.  However, the biggest improvement in sound I've gotten so far came when I turned off the crossovers on the MRV-450 and started using the crossovers on the Eclipse.  Also, I just have a gut feeling that I'm not getting the power I'm supposed to be getting.  The subchannel is supposed to put out 200w RMS which should be enough to feed the 300w RMS Type S sub, but the sub barely moves unless I have the gains set way higher than they should be and then I get distortion.

So now I'm on the verge of replacing the Alpine MRV-450 with a JL Audio 500/5, but before I spend (and possibly end up wasting) the extra money, I wanted to get some feedback from this forum.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give as much information as possible.  Any comments or suggestions (other than going back to my original setup!) would be greatly appreciated.

Teamrf:  I've heard the same thing with respect to the newer Alpine amps.   The example you gave of the Alpine 1000/1 appearing to be outperformed by the JL Audio 500/1is a good example of why I'm thinking that I might not be getting the kind of power I should be getting from the Alpine.

Ocuriel:  It's a sealed box.  Alpine shows the recommended volume for a sealed box to be between .65 and 1.5 cu ft with an optimum of 1.0 cu ft.  It's been awhile since I took the exact measurements of the box, but it's around 1.25 cu ft.  The sub is a dual voice coil and the amps subchannel rating is 200W  RMS @ 4 ohms.  Again, it's been awhile, but I did make sure the sub was a 2 ohm DVC and that it was wired properly to produce a 4 ohm load.

I've tried similar crossover points to what you suggested.  In the Eclipse's normal mode, I'm limited to one crossover point with a 12 db slope.  I've found that 100 Hz seems to work best in that mode.  In Pro Mode, I can set the crossover points seperately for the front, rear, and sub and I can choose between a 6db and 24 db slope.  The only drawback is that Eclipse designed the Pro Mode to be used with at 3 way setup, so the front channels can't be crossed over any lower than 200 Hz.   In Pro Mode, I've found that 200Hz HP with a 6 Db slope on the front and rear and 200Hz LP with a 24 db slope on the sub works best.

It's possible that I am expecting too much for the kind of power that I have, but what I don't understand is why I was so much happier with a setup that had NO external power and no sub.   Being able to hit the low notes is nice, but I can't seem to get back to the clarity and smooth sound that I had with the my original entry level setup.

Unless components are broken, I am afraid to say this sounds like user error. Do you know 100% how to set a gain? Are you 100% that all speakers are wired in phase?

I would start by setting every thing flat, x-overs, eq's, etc.

Then go to your front speakers only, either disconnect the rear and sub rca's or speaker wires. Tune this strictly with the amp, for now (be sure the deck has nothing on). The above advice is sound and is a good spot to start w/ x-over points. Don't worry about eq's or bass boost. The rear speakers should be done in the same manner. Now that you have your interior speakers done right, with a high pass x-over set between 80-100hz (not set in stone), address the sub.

Gain first, turn volume up to the point just before distortion on interior speakers, then bring the gain for the sub up to distortion and then back it off a hair. Activate the low pass filter, around 100-80hz.

If all else fails, take it to the pro's and pay to have it done right!

Your speaker selection probably has the most dramatic effect on the quality of your sound, much more so than the amps.  Even when powered by lots of watts, sub-par speakers are still going to sound sub-par.  I'm not suggesting your current speakers are not considered decent speakers, but "good sound" is subjective and varies from person to person.  You might audition some new speakers in your local shop to swap out for your JLs, maybe even Infinitys from the line you liked so much initially.  As for the sub, you could give it more watts (never a bad idea), but since you were happy without a sub, you don't necessarily "need" more power.  The sub should at least be able to overpower your components without distortion.  Make sure all your wiring is good (especially your power and ground wires) and your speakers are in phase.  Also make sure you do not have air leaking from your sub box.  It's also possible your amp may need repair.

Sometimes it is hard to be perfectly happy with any system, especially once you have been bitten by the car audio bug and are always looking for ways to improve your sound.

monkeysan wrote:

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Sometimes it is hard to be perfectly happy with any system, especially once you have been bitten by the car audio bug and are always looking for ways to improve your sound.

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Man, if that ain't the truth. I remember when two 10's and 180watts used to make me giddy...now days my subs make my hair move, and I'm like, "Man...I need more bass...". 

tomfin2000 wrote:

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Instead of improving the overall sound, it degraded it. The same people who commented on how crisp and clear the previous system had sounded were equally unimpressed.

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arrow12/monkeysan:  I've decided to completely redo the wiring when I deaden the doors.  It may not help, but since it's obvious that the original installer took quite a few short cuts, it can't hurt either.

dwarren:  Yeah, it probably is a case of user error.  I'm pretty comfortable with using the multimeter method for setting gains.   As far as all the speakers being in phase is concerned, I checked the wiring everywhere but behind the head unit where the speaker wires running from the amp are spliced into the factory wiring.  I don't believe there's a phase problem, but if there is, I'll find it when I rewire the car.   In the meantime, I'll try your suggestion for setting the crossovers.   I also may take it to a pro if all else fails.

dzelaya: With the exception of the Alpine amp, I do feel pretty good about the equipment I have.   The amp is probably fine, but I won't know for sure until I either get to the point where I'm happy with the overall sound or I try another amp, whichever comes first.

occurial:  I tried using the amp's crossovers, but the overall sound of the system seemed to improve considerably when I switched them off and used the head unit's crossovers.  (Even when using the same crossover points and slopes.)  The head unit has two sound adjustment modes.  The Normal Mode only allows you a single crossover point with a 12 db slope.  The Pro Mode allows multiple crossover points and slopes but won't allow you to crossover the front speakers below 200hz.  It's one of the few common complaints that Eclipse owners have about the deck.

Sedate:  The components in the front are the JL Audio VR650-CSi and coaxials in the rear are the JL Audio VR650-CXi.  I knew someone would call me on not being more specific about what I don't like about the overall sound of the system, but I'm not sure that I have enough first hand experience to specifically indentify it or put it into words.  I'll give it a shot though.

I'm having a lot of trouble with the high frequencies.  With most of the settings I've tried, they sound hollow and unnatural as though they're playing louder than the other frequencies.  However, when I turn down the tweets (using the 0db, -1.5db, or -3db switch on the crossover) or try to lower the highs with the EQ, the music loses some life and sounds flat.

In the mid range, I can't seem to get the clarity I had before.   With my original setup, the instruments were very distinct.  I could easily pick up and follow an individual keyboard line or base line throughout a given song.  With my current setup, it takes a lot more effort.

In the low range, the bass notes don't sound like notes.  If I turn down the speakers and just listen to what's coming out of the sub, it seems like I 'm just hearing a jumble of low frequencies.   Not only that, but it plays VERY low.   With my headunit's volume turned up to 65 or 70 out of 80 and the front and rear speakers turned all the way down, I could barely hear the subwoffer output while driving home this evening.   Based on what I've read (and heard) in other systems, that's doesn't seem right.  Shouldn't I be able to clearly hear the sub's output under those circumstances?

I'm not sure if that describes what's bothering me about the system or not, but hopefully it's a start. 

Thanks to everyone for your feedback so far.

tomfin2000 wrote:

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I'm not sure if that describes what's bothering me about the system or not, but hopefully it's a start.

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Whell you did a pretty good job of describing the problems with the sounds. From my experience with the MRV-F450 it was a sweet, powerful amp, even on the sub channel. We had it in our demo car running 2 sets of Type-R components and 2 Type-R 15's wired at the amp to 2 ohm, ,thats right, 2 ohm.  And they HIT HARD!.   One thing I have noticed over the years from alpine amps is that the gains do need to be high for them to work good.

As for the crossover settings, usually I use only one crossover process, either the deck or the sub, but not both, the crossover slope becomes too sharp when you use both head unit and amp, especially when the speakers have their own x-overs also.  When running component sets I generally set the head unit, or amp x-overs to about 65-70hz so they definately cut out the lows but give the speaker a broad enough signal for their x-overs to do their job properly. 

After all that is squared away and polarity is double checked, keep your door panels off so you have access to the speaker crossovers and play around with all the settings. You may find that you will want the drivers side tweeter to be about 1 db less than the passengers tweeter.

Good luck

Alpine Guy wrote:

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Whell you did a pretty good job of describing the problems with the sounds. From my experience with the MRV-F450 it was a sweet, powerful amp, even on the sub channel.

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sedate wrote:

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First off, let me compliment you on the flawless spelling and gramatical construction of your post. Clearly, an educated man. I think I can work with ya.

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Thanks, Sedate.  I try! 

sedate wrote:

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Now, I have a good 500 words in me about your choices and setup and equipment, but before I waste any time, lemmie ask you this one question:

Aside from the output/muddiness/attenuation from woofer, do you hear any actual *distortion*?

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No, I don't hear any actual distortion, at least not that I'm aware of.  I still have a relatively untrained set of ears when it comes to car audio though.

Fire away!

Alpine Guy wrote:

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From my experience with the MRV-F450 it was a sweet, powerful amp, even on the sub channel. We had it in our demo car running 2 sets of Type-R components and 2 Type-R 15's wired at the amp to 2 ohm, ,thats right, 2 ohm.  And they HIT HARD!

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Wow, I can't believe you were able to push two sets of components and two 15's with the MRV-F450!

If I can't effectively push one 10' with it (even at 4 ohms), then there must be something wrong.  I've checked all of the wiring to the sub before, but I'll check it again.  When I check the output at the speaker terminals on the amp with a multimeter, I have no problem getting 28.3 volts, so I don't think there's anything mechanically wrong with the amp.

I know the amp doesn't claim to be 2 ohm stable, so how were you able to run a 2 ohm load into the subchannel?   Obviously it worked for you, but can I do it without damaging the amp or the sub?

Alpine Guy wrote:

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One thing I have noticed over the years from alpine amps is that the gains do need to be high for them to work good.

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The only problem there is that the Eclipse 8553 has 8 volt preouts.  Granted, you have to be at full volume to get the 8 volts and the voltage isn't linear with the volume level, but I still have to be careful.  I'm guessing that even at 75% of the HUs volume (60 out of 80), I'm still getting between 2 volts and 4 volts of input from the HU.

Alpine Guy wrote:

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When running component sets I generally set the head unit, or amp x-overs to about 65-70hz so they definately cut out the lows but give the speaker a broad enough signal for their x-overs to do their job properly.

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I'll give that a try along with the other suggestions I've gotten.   Any idea why the HP filters on the MRV-F450 seem to color the sound so much?  The issues could be elsewhere in my system, but as I mentioned before, I seem to get much better sound if I use the HU's filters instead of the amp's.

Alpine Guy wrote:

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After all that is squared away and polarity is double checked, keep your door panels off so you have access to the speaker crossovers and play around with all the settings. You may find that you will want the drivers side tweeter to be about 1 db less than the passengers tweeter.

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I've tried that, but then I start running into some staging issues.

One thing I did notice after working with the system last night when following the suggestion to tune one set of speakers at a time is that both the tweeters and the rear coaxials overpower the woffers up front.  It becomes even more pronounced when driving.  Hopefully deadening the doors and getting a good tight fit with the MDF spacers will help with that.

Can that Alpine amp take an 8 volt input?  It might be way to high for it.  That could lead to major problems.  Ok just found something.  Read the thing below.  It's direct from Alpine's website.  At the bottom I bolded and underlined a very important thing I think.  If the amp is only capable of taking up to a 4 volt input, then 8 volts is way too muchfor it.

arrow12 wrote:

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At the bottom I bolded and underlined a very important thing I think.  If the amp is only capable of taking up to a 4 volt input, then 8 volts is way too muchfor it.

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I was concerned about that initially, but the HU only puts out 8 volts at full volume, and the relationship between the volume and output voltage isn't linear.

Here's how I set my gains using a multimeter.  I'll use the front channels (which power the VR650 components) as an example.

The front channels of the amp put out 50W RMS and the resistance of the speakers is 4 ohms.   So I take the square root of 200 (50 x 4) and I should get a reading of 14.1 volts from each set of the front channel's speaker terminals when measuring the output with a mulitmeter.

So I disconnected all of the speakers from the amp, put the HU at 75% volume (60 out of 80) and played a 1,000hz test tone with a 0db reference.   I touched the leads of the multimeter to the speaker terminals and turned up the gain until I got a reading of 14.1 volts.   I ended up just over the 2v sensitivity setting on the amp.

I've tried different methods and settings (including turning the gains all the way down) and I can tell you that I get the best overall sound from the system using this method to set the gains.

So either I'm only getting around 2 volts of output from the HU at 75% volume, the input sensitivity on the amp is way off, or the amp is struggling to produce the kind of power it should be producing given the input voltage it's receiving from the HU.

What I should probably do is measure the output voltage from the HU's RCA cables and see what's actually going into the amp.

Be careful taking a measurement of the cable that you don't short the center to the reference (ground).  This would fry the head unit.  Safest way is to use alligator clips.  Or, what I do is measure at the amp outputs where you measured voltage output...but with the gains all the way to minimum (have you noticed the 4 volt reading that shows in the JL tutorial when they describe this procedure?).

As for listening to the sub by itself, playing music:  that sounds to be normal with a good crossover.  You shouldn't be able to hear much musical melody.  The sub would have to be playing freqs higher than its intended range to do that.

The damping in the doors is crucial, so get that done ASAP.  Damp both the outer skin and the panel.  And the MDF baffle will help a lot, too.  You're not getting sufficient midbass.

The sub should still be loud in those freqs up to 100 Hz.  You're not getting what you should be there.  Borrow a pair of channels elsewhere to test, or borrow another mono amp for that purpose.

tomfin2000 wrote:

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The front channels of the amp put out 50W RMS and the resistance of the speakers is 4 ohms.   So I take the square root of 200 (50 x 4) and I should get a reading of 14.1 volts from each set of the front channel's speaker terminals when measuring the output with a mulitmeter.

So I disconnected all of the speakers from the amp, put the HU at 75% volume (60 out of 80) and played a 1,000hz test tone with a 0db reference.   I touched the leads of the multimeter to the speaker terminals and turned up the gain until I got a reading of 14.1 volts.   I ended up just over the 2v sensitivity setting on the amp.

I've tried different methods and settings (including turning the gains all the way down) and I can tell you that I get the best overall sound from the system using this method to set the gains.

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tomfin2000 wrote:

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I'm having a lot of trouble with the high frequencies. With most of the settings I've tried, they sound hollow and unnatural as though they're playing louder than the other frequencies. However, when I turn down the tweets (using the 0db, -1.5db, or -3db switch on the crossover) or try to lower the highs with the EQ, the music loses some life and sounds flat.

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tomfin2000 wrote:

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In the mid range, I can't seem to get the clarity I had before.   With my original setup, the instruments were very distinct. I could easily pick up and follow an individual keyboard line or base line throughout a given song. With my current setup, it takes a lot more effort.

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tomfin2000 wrote:

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In the low range, the bass notes don't sound like notes. If I turn down the speakers and just listen to what's coming out of the sub, it seems like I 'm just hearing a jumble of low frequencies.   Not only that, but it plays VERY low.   With my headunit's volume turned up to 65 or 70 out of 80 and the front and rear speakers turned all the way down, I could barely hear the subwoffer output while driving home this evening.   Based on what I've read (and heard) in other systems, that's doesn't seem right. Shouldn't I be able to clearly hear the sub's output under those circumstances?

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Alpine Guy wrote:

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in response to the 2 ohm question on the sub channel, yes it can be done, it dosn't have the digital circutry that the mrd series amps have, however the amp does get pretty darn toasty after a good 30 min blast.  You could try just hooking up one of the voice coils on your sub for a short period to see what its like at 2 ohm.  im not reccomending it, but in our case it worked for a year hitting 148 db before we sold the amp.

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Here's one for you, Alpine Guy:   I had two different people that stock the MRV-F450 swear to me today that the sub channel is not only 2 ohm stable but that the power rating of 200W RMS is actually at 2 ohms rather than 4 ohms.   They claim that the reason my sub seems underpowered is because I am only sending it 100W RMS by presenting it with a 4 ohm load.  They also claim that many of the published Alpine specs on the amp are either completely inaccurate or contradictory.   Have you heard anything like this before about the MRV-450?

I've read that most (if not all) mono subchannels are two ohm stable, so between that, what I've experienced with my setup, and the fact that you were able to run your setup at 2 ohms for over a year, I'm starting to believe them.  Maybe I'll try your suggestion of presenting the amp with a 2 ohm load just to see what happens.  

Worst case scenario, I'll end up having a legitmate reason to replace the amp!  LOL!

sedate wrote:

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omg did you actually do all this? Nice work man nice. I really feel shockingly unable to help you, you seem ever so competent.

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You know what your problem is Sedate?  You're too easily impressed. 

Seriously though, thanks for the advice.   You know, one of the reasons I went with the VR components was because I thought the silk tweeters would give me smoother highs and I had heard that the midbass on the JL components was pretty good across the board.   It looks like I was way off on both counts, because what you're telling me is exactly what I'm hearing.

If I decide to replace the VRs, what would you recommend?   I've heard nothing but good things about CDT.   In fact, I almost replaced the VRs with the ef-61cfi/25 earlier this year.   The only reason I didn't is because the tweeters are so damn big and I didn't want to cut into my door panels again.   (There's really no where else to install the tweets in my car unless I go with kick panels.)

How do you like the CDT sets you're using?   Having heard both, do you think I would be happier with the CDT's than the VRs?

I'm not sure what I'll do about the subs yet.  I can see how I would need more cone area,  but I should probably decide what I'm going to do with the rest of the system first.

tomfin2000 wrote:

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If I decide to replace the VRs, what would you recommend?   I've heard nothing but good things about CDT.   In fact, I almost replaced the VRs with the ef-61cfi/25 earlier this year.

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stevdart wrote:

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The sub should still be loud in those freqs up to 100 Hz. You're not getting what you should be there. Borrow a pair of channels elsewhere to test, or borrow another mono amp for that purpose.

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soundsgood2meaz wrote:

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i believe that what you are finding defiecient is that the Alpine amp's are rated at 14 volts where the JL amps or at least the "slash" amps (250/1, 500/1, 500/5 etc) have a much wider voltage window and will deliver full rated power. Sonically though the alpine is a great sounding amp in the "quieter" situations and cars. Overall though the JL will exceed your expectations

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...and then the lights went on.

At 14.4 volts, the amp is rated at 50W x 4 and 200W x 1 RMS

At 12 volts, the amp is rated at 30W x 4 and 150W x 1 RMS

When I set my gains, I used the 14.4 volt ratings.   So running off the battery instead of the alternator, I went back and set the gains according to the 12 volt values.

BIG improvement in clarity and overall SQ.

With the ignition running, I'll probably see something closer to 13.8 volts, but either way, I had my gains set way too high.   In fact, I even had to turn the non-fader (sub out) down on the deck in order to come in at the right voltage.   The earlier comment about the input sensitivity on the MRV-F450 not being able to accomodate the high voltage preamps on the HU was right on the money.

So, the bottom line is that I'm seriously underpowering my system and the MRV-F450, while probably a good amp in and of itself, just isn't a good match for the HU and speakers I'm running.   The JL 500/5 is much better fit, so at least now when I upgrade I'll know why I'm doing it and what I'm trying to accomplish.

I'm still not ready to give up on the JL VRs, because I want to see what they can do when my system is properly powered and tuned, but I probably will look into the CDTs at some point.  Based on Sedate's description, they sound like they're more my style.

Humm, i really doubt the alpine amp was rated at the 2 ohms, back when that amp was produced they were a stand up company still. But hey, you never know right? At 2 ohm i can truely say it made those R-15's move like they were getting a good 400 wrms.

From what it sounds like you want out of your system its probably a good idea in the future when it is justifyable to get new equipment, possibly get a 4 channel amp and a mono sub amp powering a 12" ported woofer.  So far it looks like your already narrowing down the speaker choices.

Alpine Guy wrote:

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Humm, i really doubt the alpine amp was rated at the 2 ohms, back when that amp was produced they were a stand up company still. But hey, you never know right? At 2 ohm i can truely say it made those R-15's move like they were getting a good 400 wrms.

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I was trying to figure this out today.   The amp can be run in three channel mode by bridging the front and rear channels, so by definition, it has to be 2 ohm stable, right?

Also, since Alpine provides specs for the amp at 2 ohms stereo, 4 ohms stereo, and 4 ohms mono (4 ohms stereo, and 4 ohms mono (bridged), I'm thinking that each individual channel is 2 ohm mono. 

If that's the case, then the guys at the shops were right and I was running a 4 ohm mono load into a 2 ohm mono channel.   If that's the case, then I'm probably sending somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 watts to the sub which would explain a lot.

Alpine Guy wrote:

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So whats the verdict? Did it work out good?

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Man, after reading through this thread again, I was so freaking lost that I should have left a trail of breadcrumbs behind me!

I ran a JL Audio 10W3v2-D4 (wired parallel for 2 ohms) for less than a week.  It worked fine because I was convinced that I was putting 200W into a 2 ohm load and set the gains on the amp accordingly.   In other words, I didn't have much more current flowing through the amp than I did when I had the gains set for 400W into a 4 ohm load.

A couple of days after getting the 10W3v2-D4, I was able to confirm that the Alpine MRV-F450's subchannel is NOT 2 ohm stable, so I decided to return it and get a 12W1v2-4 instead.  I though having more cone area and a speaker that was designed to run on 150W to 200W  would make a difference.  It didn't.   The lesson I've learned here is that if you keep buying subs that have efficiency ratings of 85db to 87db and keep feeding them the same 200W RMS, you're going to get more or less the same results.

Since I'm not at the point where I want to put in a 400W (or higher) mono amp to run a sub, I'm leaning towards getting something more efficient like an Infinity Kappa Perfect 12.1.  That sub has an efficiency rating of 96db, and from what I've read, it's also pretty good sub in terms of SQ.  I'm also looking at the Image Dymanics IDQ series.  Those have an efficiency rating of 90db, but at supposed to be excellent SQ subs.

As for the rest of the setup, everything that Sedate said is turning out to be true.   I deadened the doors a couple of weeks ago and replaced the hacked up plastic spacers with new ones.  It made a tremendous deference in terms of the overall strength and volume of the VR650 components, even when listening with the car parked.  Now the rear fill is no longer dominant and the VR650 compoents are now playing loud enough and strongly enough that I could ditch the rear fill altogether if I wanted to.   That's the good news.  The bad news is that now I just have a louder and stronger version of what I had before.  The overall sound hasn't changed at all.

So I decided it's time to throw in the towel with respect to the VR650s and try something else.  I have a set of CDT EF61 Neo Braxials due to arrive any day now.   I should have them in the car by this weekend, so once I've had the chance to give them a good listen, I'll post an update.

tomfin2000 wrote:

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  In other words, I didn't have much more current flowing through the amp than I did when I had the gains set for 400W into a 4 ohm load.

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Actually, that should read "200W into a 4 ohm load."

OCURIEL wrote:

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Don't let the 96 db sensitivity reading on the infinity perfect fool you, it did me. That reading is with cabin gain, meaning the spl was measured in the car vs 3 feet away.

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So what do you think the true sensitivity rating on the sub would be if you were doing an apples for apples 2.83v/1m or 1w/1m measurement?

[QUOTE]overall is still a great sq sub, I loved mine.[/QUOTE]

Most people that have owned them seem to really like them.  

[QUOTE]You might consider a tc2+ sub. It has a lot of excursion, supposeably great sq & is on sale at www.oaudio.com. I can't say that I know it sounds great cause i'm still waiting on mine to be shipped, but all of the feedback i've heard regarding this sub pushed me to buy one.
if interested, I'll leave some feedback when i listen to it for a day or two.[/QUOTE]

This is the first time I've heard of o-audio or the tc2+.  I'd definitely be interested in hearing what you think of it, especially since you've already run an Infinity Kappa 12.1.

That's where I'm at a real disadvantage.  I don't anyone else locally that's into car audio, so I don't have the opportunity to listen to what other people are running.

tcss]F wrote:

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ctory subwoofer sensitivity numbers are basically meaningless because of a lack of standard enclosure. The same woofer in a small sealed enclosure vs. a ported box would show a completely differant number.

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Yeah, it looks like I was way off base again, especially with respect to the Infinity Kappa 12.1:

https://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=080300;p=1

I know you can get decent low end for a modest SQ setup like mine with 200W RMS, but I'm having a tough time figuring out how to do it.