Thoughts on High End Mids/Tweets?

How are you going to set your crossovers and other processing?  Read my thread above about advanced front speakers and you will get an idea of what it takes to set up a system like this correctly.  It generally requires expensive equipment and a great deal of time.  And trying to do it without that equipment is like trying to do a perfect rendition of the Mona Lisa on an etch-a-sketch.

If you are planning a 3-way set, then I would recommend using a smaller midrange than a 6.5" driver.  Since you will have a midbass to take care of the low end, you don't need the extra extention that the 6.5" will give you.  One that I might recommend is this driver: https://www.diycable.com/main/product_info.php?products_id=533  It has incredible midrange capabilities, as well as great upper bandwidth which may help on your tweeter selection.

Steven Kephart wrote:

---

How are you going to set your crossovers and other processing?

---

Steven Kephart wrote:

---

It generally requires expensive equipment

---

bogey] wrote:

---

I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for here. If you are asking about dB slope or type (Linkwitz Riley, Butterworth, Bessel), I'm not sure about that yet. If you are asking about crossover frequencies ideally I would like to keep them out of the vocal range 300-3k or so.

I make no pretensions about being rich or an audiophile. I am passionate about sq and I'm willing to save patiently. I will end up piecing my system together, but I want to make sure I buy good stuff along the way. 

---

The problem is that the equipment really isn't feasible for a hobbiest to purchase.  You are talking about equipment and software costing several thousand dollars and having a very steep learning curve.  That's why I generally recommend to people to go with the sets available from manufacturers where the design work is already done.  The only people who I would recommend going with something more custom is people like Dyohn or Heamphyst who have the know-how and equipment available to set things up correctly.

I have been fortunate to watch the design of quite a few speaker systems by a very talented engineer.  I have seen the complexity involved and am amazed when I see someone claim how easy it is on some of these DIY sites.  These are probably the same people who think Bose makes the best audio equipment on the market; where psychoacoustics rule their reality.

bogey] wrote:

---

nbsp; I'm a little surprised you recommended a 4.5" over the 6.5". The bass extension, though, was pretty impressive for its size. Just to make sure we're on the same page, when I said 3way I was including the sub (low/mid/high). With this in mind would you still make the same recommendation? It is a beautiful driver, but isn't it make for home use? Can I use that in my car? 

---

Ah, I didn't realize the third "way" was in reference to a sub.  So in that case, I would recommend a 6.5" driver. 

As for the home/car thing, that driver should work just fine in a car.  Why wouldn't it?

bogey:

If you're dedicated to DIY speaker building, go ahead and start learning and invest in the equipment.  Don't let Steven scare you off if you really do have a thirst for the knowledge.  A commercial crossover can't be all things for all cars, so even if your home-built crossover isn't professional, it will arguably meet the quality of many mass market models as it will be designed for -your- car.

However, if you're doing this one car install, it really would be better to have someone else design it for you. 

As for the drivers, try the Adire Extremis.  I've built 3 pairs of home speakers now using Exodus/Adire kits.  I'm a believer in the XBL^2 technology they use.

kfr01] wrote:

---

If you're dedicated to DIY speaker building, go ahead and start learning and invest in the equipment.

---

Steven Kephart wrote:

---

As for the home/car thing, that driver should work just fine in a car. Why wouldn't it?

---

Bogey:

If you get those two Behringer components and the ECM8000 mic, you should be set.  Use steep and reasonable crossovers, do enough research to handle the phase and time alignment issues with the unit, and flatten with the DEQ2496.  It really should take care of everything quite expertly.  You seem rather literate, I'm sure you could figure it out on your own.  What's the worst that could happen?  You spend some money, end up with something less than the best, and learn a lot along the way.

Let's face it, money will always be spent in this hobby.  There will always be something better out there, and learning is always positive. 

Given the fact that the resale value of that Behringer equipment is high, I don't think you have anything to lose.  I say go for it! 

Also, home drivers work just fine in a car.  They may have a slightly shorter lifespan as the materials generally are not as "all-weather."  The drivers are also usually 8ohms, but all that means is that you'll be able to pull 1/2 as much max wattage from your amplifier.  Neither of these are really much of an issue for sound quality buffs, in my opinion.  SPL junkies would never use home drivers because of the max wattage issue.  Given the unfortunate fact that car audio is overrun with SPL junkies, you'll be scoffed at from time to time. 

kfr01] wrote:

---

P>bogey:

If you're dedicated to DIY speaker building, go ahead and start learning and invest in the equipment.  Don't let Steven scare you off if you really do have a thirst for the knowledge.  A commercial crossover can't be all things for all cars, so even if your home-built crossover isn't professional, it will arguably meet the quality of many mass market models as it will be designed for -your- car.

---

That's where I disagree.  Without proper testing equipment, there is no way he can design the crossover specifically for his vehicle.  Mass market sets generally are designed to work in most vehicle's, with minor equalization improving the results.  And as the environment has been somewhat taken into account, along with the response of the drivers in that environment; they will more than likely have the better results over an improperly designed DIY set.  Keep in mind that the crossover is THE most important part of the speaker set, even more so than the speaker selection or enclosure they are in.

bogey] wrote:

---

he reason I brought it up was I was politely chastised for considering the use of home speakers in the car. So I was a little confused.

---

One of Adire Audio's most popular subs originally was a home audio designed subwoofer, and it was used with huge success in the vehicle.  With subwoofers there are some minor design differences that may effect the results.  However for midrange drivers there really aren't any.  In fact most car speakers are made in the same build houses as home speakers, using the same materials and glues. 

Steven Kephart wrote:

---

kfr01] wrote:

---

bogey:

If you're dedicated to DIY speaker building, go ahead and start learning and invest in the equipment.  Don't let Steven scare you off if you really do have a thirst for the knowledge.  A commercial crossover can't be all things for all cars, so even if your home-built crossover isn't professional, it will arguably meet the quality of many mass market models as it will be designed for -your- car.

---

That's where I disagree.  Without proper testing equipment, there is no way he can design the crossover specifically for his vehicle.  Mass market sets generally are designed to work in most vehicle's, with minor equalization improving the results.  And as the environment has been somewhat taken into account, along with the response of the drivers in that environment; they will more than likely have the better results over an improperly designed DIY set.  Keep in mind that the crossover is THE most important part of the speaker set, even more so than the speaker selection or enclosure they are in.

---

O.k., but:

1) everyone has to start somewhere;

2) thousands of diy speakers are built a year, with acceptable results, with less than $2k software packages;

3) a thirst for knowledge and experience are always good things;

4) all he has to lose is time and money;

5) if he's fine with that, why should we discourage him from learning?

You never know.  He could buy a reasonably priced measurement mic; find a speaker testing jig for a reasonable price, new or used; download or buy some diy grade software.  Do his homework.   You never know.  He could have a very satisfying diy experience, be 100% happy with the sound, and have learned a load on the way.

Why is this so bad?

Steven Kephart wrote:

---

Without proper testing equipment, there is no way he can design the crossover specifically for his vehicle. 

---

Please, if you have time, list what equipment one would need to design a crossover properly. 

I'm not talking world class equipment, but equipment that would get a diyer 90% of the way.

Correct me if I'm totally wrong, but wouldn't this just include:

1) Parts Express USB woofer tester and software;

2) M-Audio USB MobilePre (mic amp and soundcard);

3) Behringer ECM8000 Mic;

4) SoundEasy Loudspeaker Design Software.

All this can be had for under $500.  The end result certainly won't be world class, but if done correctly one should be able to obtain decent results.  Lots of diy enthusiasts build speakers that measure reasonably flat with little more.... 

<sarcasm>Those fools!  Disband the diy loudspeaker community!  Revoke crossover design licenses around the world if you aren't a world class E.E. with a speaker build house in Chile and a Praxis rig.</sarcasm> 

What our friend is talking about should be even easier.  He can use ultra steep digital crossovers and the active unit will fix any frequency response and timing problems. 

Steven, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I'm a little disappointed to see you discouraging what could be a very satisfying diy project for the original poster.  By the way, I continue to be a huge fan of Adire's drivers.  This past fall I built the 2641 kit and it sounds amazing.  Kudos to all of you at Adire / Exodus / etc.  You've probably seen it, but my review is below:   https://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=23298

kfr01] wrote:

---

QUOTE=Steven Kephart]

kfr01] wrote:

---

bogey:

If you're dedicated to DIY speaker building, go ahead and start learning and invest in the equipment.  Don't let Steven scare you off if you really do have a thirst for the knowledge.  A commercial crossover can't be all things for all cars, so even if your home-built crossover isn't professional, it will arguably meet the quality of many mass market models as it will be designed for -your- car.

---

That's where I disagree.  Without proper testing equipment, there is no way he can design the crossover specifically for his vehicle.  Mass market sets generally are designed to work in most vehicle's, with minor equalization improving the results.  And as the environment has been somewhat taken into account, along with the response of the drivers in that environment; they will more than likely have the better results over an improperly designed DIY set.  Keep in mind that the crossover is THE most important part of the speaker set, even more so than the speaker selection or enclosure they are in.

---

O.k., but:

1) everyone has to start somewhere;

2) thousands of diy speakers are built a year, with acceptable results, with less than $2k software packages;

3) a thirst for knowledge and experience are always good things;

4) all he has to lose is time and money;

5) if he's fine with that, why should we discourage him from learning?

You never know.  He could buy a reasonably priced measurement mic; find a speaker testing jig for a reasonable price, new or used; download or buy some diy grade software.  Do his homework.   You never know.  He could have a very satisfying diy experience, be 100% happy with the sound, and have learned a load on the way.

Why is this so bad?

[/QUOTE]

2.  That number sounds quite steep.  And I question the "acceptable" part.  I bet under proper scrutiny 90% of them would prove to be less impressive than the builders claim.

3.  I totally agree.  That is why I am sharing what I have learned on this topic, hoping to feed that thirst a little bit.

5.  If my comments sound like discouragment, it is because I believe he is undertaking a very large project and I want him to understand the enormity of it.  Would you encourage an admirer of the Sistine Chapel to attempt to paint a masterpiece with promises that he could acomplish the task?  What are you saying about the true artistic masters when you say that anyone can do it? 

Steven Kephart wrote:

---

kfr01] wrote:

---

QUOTE=Steven Kephart]

kfr01] wrote:

---

bogey:

If you're dedicated to DIY speaker building, go ahead and start learning and invest in the equipment.  Don't let Steven scare you off if you really do have a thirst for the knowledge.  A commercial crossover can't be all things for all cars, so even if your home-built crossover isn't professional, it will arguably meet the quality of many mass market models as it will be designed for -your- car.

---

That's where I disagree.  Without proper testing equipment, there is no way he can design the crossover specifically for his vehicle.  Mass market sets generally are designed to work in most vehicle's, with minor equalization improving the results.  And as the environment has been somewhat taken into account, along with the response of the drivers in that environment; they will more than likely have the better results over an improperly designed DIY set.  Keep in mind that the crossover is THE most important part of the speaker set, even more so than the speaker selection or enclosure they are in.

---

O.k., but:

1) everyone has to start somewhere;

2) thousands of diy speakers are built a year, with acceptable results, with less than $2k software packages;

3) a thirst for knowledge and experience are always good things;

4) all he has to lose is time and money;

5) if he's fine with that, why should we discourage him from learning?

You never know.  He could buy a reasonably priced measurement mic; find a speaker testing jig for a reasonable price, new or used; download or buy some diy grade software.  Do his homework.   You never know.  He could have a very satisfying diy experience, be 100% happy with the sound, and have learned a load on the way.

Why is this so bad?

---

2.  That number sounds quite steep.  And I question the "acceptable" part.  I bet under proper scrutiny 90% of them would prove to be less impressive than the builders claim.

3.  I totally agree.  That is why I am sharing what I have learned on this topic, hoping to feed that thirst a little bit.

5.  If my comments sound like discouragment, it is because I believe he is undertaking a very large project and I want him to understand the enormity of it.  Would you encourage an admirer of the Sistine Chapel to attempt to paint a masterpiece with promises that he could acomplish the task?  What are you saying about the true artistic masters when you say that anyone can do it? 

[/QUOTE]

2)  Yes, I'm sure 90% are less impressive than the builders claim.  However, I'd be willing to bet that same 90% sounds better than your average Best Buy HTIAB garbage. 

3)  O.k.  ....  so now that you've scared him a bit, how about listing what he'd need to obtain and what he'd need to read to start learning.  Remember, everyone needs to start somewhere.

4) I did not say anyone could create an artistic masterpiece, did I?  I merely said he should go for it, and he'll probably get results that are acceptable (not crap) if he's willing to do his homework.  Note that this detracts -nothing- from true masters such as Dan.  I followed your advice and bought 3 Exodus kits, rather than build my own, because I wanted gauranteed results.  You gave me good advice, I consider the kit 61 and kit 2641 masterpieces, for the money.  I'm confident I couldn't have obtained the same results by now.

However, for my next speakers I'm sure I'm going to try branching out with my own designs.  DIY is about more than obtaining masterpiece results.  Only fools expect to obtain masterpiece results from their first projects.  DIY is about fun, learning, and the satisfaction of plugging those binding posts in for the first time and not seeing smoke.  DIY is about sitting there knowing, "I made that!" 

To summarize:
1)  DIY detracts nothing from masters like Dan.
2)  Few DIYers expect to obtain masterpiece results
3)  That's fine, because DIY is about more than achieving masterpiece results
3)  Now that we've explored the mountain-like enormity of the task of designing crossovers, how about helping the original poster? 

Remember, even Michelangelo was a DIYer at some point.  In fact, he thought his work on the Sistine Chapel wasn't good enough and that he shouldn't be painting it.  He thought a true master of painting should have been commissioned for that job.  Indeed, a few "masters" of the time complained that the ceiling wasn't as polished, detailed, and finished with enough ultramarine and gold. 

You didn't answer my question re: the beginners kit to crossover building.  What else would the beginner need than the items on my list?

1) Parts Express USB woofer tester and software;

2) M-Audio USB MobilePre (mic amp and soundcard);

3) Behringer ECM8000 Mic;

4) SoundEasy Loudspeaker Design Software.

stevdart wrote:

---

bogey - Your opening question in this thread leaves some important information hanging out there somewhere. We should have some information on the following:

    * "Right now I am in the process of planning upgrades to my system."

---

stevdart wrote:

---

You later described that you are looking for what is considered a typical car audio system: a mid/tweeter component set and a subwoofer, which you described here as a "three-way".

---

stevdart wrote:

---

I looked over some of your past threads and have an impression that you are located remotely (?) and so you don't have access to shops and dealers to audition some nice component sets. Do I understand that right? So, you are relying heavily on opinions and reviews. Let the forum know if that's not the case.

---

This has been an interesting discussion.  IMO Vance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook is a must have for any DIY speaker builder, especially when one is just starting out.  Invaluable knowledge in the book, as well as some really excellent DIY designs to use or modify to suit your needs.  If you want to buy one, order it HERE and the12volt.com gets a little kick-back from Amazon!

I say go for it.  As long as you realize that most text-book crossovers (i.e. ones produced using standard calculators) may or may not sound the way you expect and you are willing to experiment and do some testing (you have sufficient tools) building passive crossovers is a lot of fun.  I love to experiment and see how many different ways I can make a set of speakers sound by tweaking the crossovers.

Also, do not discount the quality of the crossovers provided by manufacturers of higher-end component sets.  I have been very impressed lately with the factory passives shipped with a set of Eclipse comps I installed in my vehicle.  Very detailed and accurate.  I do not think I could have done better.

Dyohn] wrote:

---

f you want to buy one, order it HERE and the12volt.com gets a little kick-back from Amazon!

---

stevdart wrote:

---

Posted By: stevdart

It's exasperating getting through and around all the quotes-within-quotes every time a new remark is posted. Why on earth do you! guys do that?

Anyway, my pet peeve. I'm following this discussion with interest, and will offer an opinion in this particular case. It may be an unwelcome one, but if so it won't be the first time I've offered on of those. :) We all know that one size doesn't fit all.

bogey - Your opening question in this thread leaves some important information hanging out there somewhere. We should have some information on the following:

    * "Right now I am in the process of planning upgrades to my system."

What is the system you currently have, and what about it, in your opinion, needs improvement?

    * "The first thing I want to concentrate on is the selection of my mids (6.5") and highs (any size) to help me plan the rest of the system. I am planning on running a 3way system..."

You later described that you are looking for what is considered a typical car audio system: a mid/tweeter component set and a subwoofer, which you described here as a "three-way". What is the "rest of the system" that you referred to? I looked over some of your past threads and have an impression that you are located remotely (?) and so you don't have access to shops and dealers to audition some nice component sets. Do I understand that right? So, you are relying heavily on opinions and reviews. Let the forum know if that's not the case.

Because of the content of some of your questions, I (Dr Phil) think you should try to listen to some different brands of matched components in order to get a feel for the sound that you consider best. I agree with Kephart's comments in this thread that mixing drivers and using an active filter network to define your system may not be the best route for you to go (although we are arriving at that conclusion using different reasons). You don't want to rely on reviews and opinions in this matter.

I also agree with kfr01 that the hobby of speaker building is richly satisfying. I just think you should build upon it a little differently by increasing your knowledge and experience through the use of engineered systems. The system you're looking for is common and simple - component set and sub- and you will probably achieve best results using a paired combination mid/tweet set. That may not result in the fun experience of building that you're looking for, but may best satisfy your thirst for an SQ system.

I get the feeling that your ultimate goal is high quality sound in your car more than the process of learning how to design a sound system. Tell me if I'm off base.

---

Oops, I'll see about getting that link fixed.

I use True Audio's TrueRTA software (https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm) and a Behringer ECM8000 microphone (https://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-625) and a Dell laptop computer with a full-duplex sound card to take measurements of speaker output.  Then I can tweak crossovers to tame peaks, etc.  Lots of folks like free Speaker Workshop or similar software (like the pro-level and very much NOT free Praxis) because it allows you to model crossovers before you build them.  This method saves time and is preferred for manufacturers.  For hobbyists, as long as you don't mind wielding the soldering iron and buying a batch of components, trial and error is more time consuming but equally satisfying when results are achieved.

I pulled my post, bogey, because I finally realized that I was just running interference and don't have much value to add to this discussion.  But not before you saw it, obviously.  The busybody in me thought this thread may have veered off course a bit in regards to what you were asking.  The assumption that you were referring to a 3-way system plus sub, for example.  And DYohn is encouraging you to go ahead with this but talking about passives...whereas I thought you were considering all active.  Most of the gear you have expressed an interest in or already own is out of my league, and actives is an area I know extremely little about. 

What I wanted to do, though, is try to get to the basics of what you are trying to accomplish.  That starts with what you are listening to now and what you feel is needed to improve it.  Your last post indicates that you are now listening to one set of MBQs, powered by a Butler amp and no subwoofer.  (The bunches of brand names that interspice this thread tends to confuse things, at least to me.)  You are not satisfied with the current sound and want to improve it.  Right away, I see an obvious lack of musical frequencies/dynamics by not having the subwoofer installed.  That addition would enhance the mids and help a lot with SQ.  There are other install issues that may be tweaked, too, like damping in the doors, rear deck and trunk areas.  Altogether creating a great improvement in sound quality.

In summary it's this, at least from my perspective:  do you have a complete system installed, as well as it possibly can be, and are able to pick it apart for flaws that you would like to correct with your next system incarnation?

stevdart wrote:

---

I pulled my post, bogey, because I finally realized that I was just running interference and don't have much value to add to this discussion.

---

stevdart wrote:

---

You are not satisfied with the current sound and want to improve it.

---

the12volt wrote:

---

Hi bogey, thanks for pointing that out. This link has been updated: Loudspeaker Design Cookbook

---

Dyohn] wrote:

---

ctive crossovers are a much easier route in car audio. You'll still need an RTA-type test platform to set it up properly.

---