Bass to mids fill
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=84688
Printed Date: May 14, 2024 at 5:15 PM
Topic: Bass to mids fill
Posted By: prodigal
Subject: Bass to mids fill
Date Posted: October 26, 2006 at 2:59 PM
I was wondering that with my system i am tuned to below 35 hz cause i have 3 low pass filters set to 35 hz. When i play music i can sense a gap between the bass and the midrange. I want to fill in this gap. I recently purchased a pair of 6 X 9s and 5.5 inch seald basket speakers for my mids. I am thinking of putting these in a very small (just enough space for the speakers) well seal box so that it would be able to handle the lower bass frequencies with little distortion. Will this set up work or are there any other ideas to help me with the fill effect? ------------- Prodigal Son
Replies:
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: October 26, 2006 at 3:08 PM
By the way the 6 X 9s have a frequencly response of 35 - 20k Hz and the sealed basket 5.5" is 600 - 6k Hz. I run an EQ with a designated sub woofer channel and 30 Hz x-over, a soundstream BX-10 bass maximizer with the low pass filter at 35 Hz so i'm basically running the mids and tweeters full range.
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Prodigal Son
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: October 26, 2006 at 3:40 PM
IMO 35Hz is WAY too low for your subwoofer crossover. Raise that up to about 80Hz. Your 6X9's probably only respond with useful SPL down to about 100Hz or so. Adding an enclosure to the 6X9s will do little if anything to improve their bass response. If you raise your sub crossover and still feel like you need more, dedicated mid-bass drivers in kick panels is a popular solution. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: October 26, 2006 at 3:50 PM
i have tried running 6 X 9s without a box and i find that the cone starts to move violently causing too much distortion and very little mids output. The fill i'm looking for is only inside the vehicle not on the outside. I love the low frequencies but i understand where you are coming from with raising the x-over point. I'm working on retuning the subs using winisd to 25 Hz which would give me a flat response from 40 - 100 Hz and boost 35 Hz at -3 db. I'll give it a try to see what happens. Thanks
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Prodigal Son
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: October 26, 2006 at 6:02 PM
No matter what you do, as long as you are only using the subwoofers in the first octave (below 40Hz) they will never add fill into the bass region, and lowering your enclosure tuning will do nothing at all for your missing bass. Raise your sub crossover an octave or so and see what happens. Oh, and in your first message you state you have "3 low pass filters set to 35 hz." What exactly does this mean and what are you trying to accomplish? ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: October 30, 2006 at 8:52 PM
My bad i sain filters when i meant x-overs. I just love low frequency bass and it's more pleasing to the ear- more sound than vibration. Plus i believe it travels further. However it's really messed up at high volumes i sometomes get ringing ears and headaches but i don't crank it up that often. When i used to run at 40 hz i had too much rattling in the car and don't feel like investing in sound dampening material cause i haven't got a vehicle i will keep for long yet.
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Prodigal Son
Posted By: killer sonata
Date Posted: October 30, 2006 at 11:20 PM
it sounds like you know what you want but are not willing to do whats neccessary to achieve the desired results. If this is the case then why are you looking for help?
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: October 31, 2006 at 11:01 AM
ok let me explain what i want to know- i've seen these speaker protectors/bass boomers on sale for about $5 for the pair. I was planning on getting a set for my 6X9s but the reviews said they were very flimsy and damage easily. Reviews also said that these thing increase the bass output of the speakers and actually made them play better. These protectors seem to be just a covering and just act like placing the 6X9s in a seald enclosure. The last time i tried 6X9s as mids i found they had too much distortion when allowed to stay in free air so if i placed them in a sealed box what would be the difference. Presently for my mids the 150 Hz knob has to be all the way down to -dbs for the mids to play properly. If i could get this frequency to ply without distortion then i could have some bass to mids fill ok. My bass section is as i want it already it's just the mids frequencies i want to play without any distortion. Thanks
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Prodigal Son
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: October 31, 2006 at 11:13 AM
IMO 6X9 speakers are some of the worse sounding you can possibly use. If you like them, then great, but a good quality 6.5" coax or component set will blow them away - in general. If you are using your 6X9s as your mains and crossing them at 150Hz (a good idea, by the way) you have a huge "hole" between 35Hz and 150Hz, which means you have no low bass in your system. Not a good setup at all. You really need to consider dedicated mid-bass drivers. I suggest a good set of 6.5 or 7" woofers in kick panels in the front of your vehicle, driven by their own stereo amp crossed between your sub and mains.. As far as your sub-bass, you are robbing yourself of most of what your woofers can do by crossing them so low. There is VERY little information below 40Hz. If crossing them properly at 80 to 100Hz results in too much rattling, etc. then you need to improve your installation. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: killer sonata
Date Posted: October 31, 2006 at 8:09 PM
prodigal, the reason why your 6x9s in free air distorted is most likely due to poor tuning. are you using a factory deck or aftermarket? If its factory, adjust the fader so that it is front side bias. the rear speakers are only for rear fill. if its aftermarket, dont adjust the bass so its maxing out. in fact, you really should keep it at 0 or in the middle. A sealed enclosure is definitely NOT what you want for the 6x9s. Like it has been mentioned already, you will lose all bottom end from the speakers. this will create a gap in the frequencies. You need to turn your subs up to atleast 80hz and invest in some sound dampener. that will take care of all of your rattles. Everything you have told us so far tells me that you have a poor install and dont want to do the proper steps to make it sound great. Great sound takes time and money. it is an investment that will yield you great results in the end if you take the time to do it right. Im not trying to put you down, just tell you the truth.
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: October 31, 2006 at 8:58 PM
Oh don't worry i'm open to crtitcism I mean isn't it what the world is best at. all things considered i don't think i'm wasting useful frequencies cause i have a digital bass reconstructor (soundstream bx-10)and from my research i've learnt that it takes the higher frequencies and reproduces them as low frequencies particularly those below 40 Hz and i've tried running and boosting 30 Hz with and without the bass maximizer and the difference was very substantial so o believe it does pretty much what it says. killer i agree with you on the components over 6X9s and i think i'll look into that as well. I like experimenting so i'm just trying out different things for my own personal experience and to widen my understanding After i believe i've learnt enough i'll start to invest heavily in my dream system. Oh and dyon you've given some valuable info as well i appreciate it. I'll look into the mid bass drivers soon.
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Prodigal Son
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: October 31, 2006 at 9:02 PM
1 more thing i realized that with the lower frequency bass not only do get very little rattling but i can feel my insides (of my body) shaking when i really turn it up and again the rattling is very little. I mean that beats sound dampening by far doesn't it?
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Prodigal Son
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: November 01, 2006 at 10:46 AM
prodigal wrote:
1 more thing i realized that with the lower frequency bass not only do get very little rattling but i can feel my insides (of my body) shaking when i really turn it up and again the rattling is very little. I mean that beats sound dampening by far doesn't it?
Nope. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: November 01, 2006 at 1:51 PM
Question about mid bass speakers: you said to install them in the front door panels. Are these speakers free air speakers or is there need to construct a box for them? Also how loud do they play?
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Prodigal Son
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: November 01, 2006 at 1:57 PM
prodigal wrote:
Question about mid bass speakers: you said to install them in the front door panels. Are these speakers free air speakers or is there need to construct a box for them? Also how loud do they play?
I suggested in kick panels, although you could use the front door panels if you are not using them for your front main speakers. Where and what are your front mains, by the way? You ask how loud they play... as loud as you want them to. But the correct answer is as loud as they need to be to blend properly with the front mains. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: November 01, 2006 at 3:24 PM
my front mains are the originfal speakers on the front dash i believe they are 4" speakers at 8 ohms and 10 watts each and are powered by the HU. Looked into the kick panel idea and they look really sweet. If i decide to go with the idea i'd want to fibreglass my own design. In my reading i came across the problem of angle which causes difference in distance from speaker to ears and affecting staging how do i overcome that? what is the average int. volume of the enclosure for these mid bass speakers if they do need an enclosure at all? is it better to have mids up front or in the rear or both and which locations are better? Thanks for the input i'm learning so much about mids and all suggestions are getting me to come up with a great design. i'm already shopping for my components and can't wait to custom install them myself. i'm really looking forward to fibreglassing too.
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Prodigal Son
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: November 01, 2006 at 3:52 PM
The best solution for mid-bass is usually as part of a properly design front stage since the sound is in stereo. Using your stock front speakers but having upgraded rear speakers is exactly backwards from a proper installation, by the way. You want the main sound to be in front of you (as much as possible) not behind you. Every speaker has different requirements for enclosure volume for best performance, but in reality you can mount any speaker any way you choose as long as you understand the trade-offs. In my old car I used 7" Scan Speak woofers in 0.6cuft sealed kick panel enclosures for dedicated mid-bass. In my current vehicle the stereo main component have enough mid-bass that they do not need to be augmented. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: Paradigm
Date Posted: November 02, 2006 at 2:39 PM
https://www.bcae1.com/ This will probably give you more info than you need right now, but it is probably the best place to start. Read up and learn. If you still have questions, come back here. Will will be happy to continue helping you out  ------------- VEHICLE: 2002 GMC Sonoma ZR2
Alpine CDA-7940
AudioControl EQT x2
JL Audio 1000/1
JL Audio 10W6 (originals) x3
Kicker ZR120
Kicker ZR460
Polk GXR-6 x4
Polk GXR-4 x2
Posted By: prodigal
Date Posted: November 04, 2006 at 8:49 AM
i am getting a set of components soon. Is 60-20kHz a good frequency range for the fill i'm looking for? I intend on installing them in the upper part of the front door panels is this a good location and will it interfere with the operation of my central door locking and power window since the speaker magnet will be in the area of these motors? And will it affect the operation of the car alarm?
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Prodigal Son
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