Inverted or regular mount

In a sealed box, I have found that mounting a sub inverted has advantages over mounting it regularly.

Is there any advantage or disadvantage to doing the same in a ported box, or does it matter?

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'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp

If by "inverted" you mean "magnet side out" the only real difference should be the added internal airspace of the enclosure since the speakers physical displacement is now outside.

I can't imagine this making a difference sealed or vented other then that, regardless of which way the speaker faces it is still basically an "air pump", so if the cone moves..so will air.

Hope I helped.

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Agreed with master5. It is for the most part an aesthetic thing. Even with internal airspace (and the sub in question), many times you will only gain .1 cu ft of airspace by having the driver inverted. I know that sometimes space is limited...but IMO, having the sub inverted in this situation causes more space issues since the sub takes up more physical space when inverted than true airspace. Having it stick out can be more space challenging than making the box the size you need with the sub mounted normally.

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The Flakman
I feel strange. I have deja vu and amnesia at the same time.

John | Manteca, CA

Agreed w/ Flakman as well, however, have you seen the size of some of the subs out there today?....Gi...Normous.

So yes, although you gain some airspace in the enclosure by "flipping" the sub, the amount depending on the size of the subs basket/magnet assembly, you now have a magnet and basket taking up physical space in your vehicle (seems too obvious to even mention)

But, IMO,  on many subs it does look "cool".

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It probably seems like more since by looking at it, it appears to take up a ton of space. But really it is a frame, which is mostly empty space so that with the magnet size is what you would lose.

I guess the best way to measure this would be to fill a bucket at least the size of the sub basket/magnet assembly to the very top with water. Put that bucket into a larger empty container. Place the sub into the bucket until it is flush with the mounting surface. Pour the water that spilled into the other bucket into a measuring cup. Convert it to cubic inches, divide by 1728, and you'll have your answer.

Nouse..I did the last experiment, your turn. do this with a type R or one of those FUBAR's and post the results please. Or better yet one of those really huge SPL 5000 watt subs..you really think those would only use  .06 cubic ft?

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Yep...it does look cool. Just have to hide the speaker cable. It is an impressive display...I wouldn't mind having my T1s inverted, but they sit in boxes til I get a different vehicle.

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The Flakman
I feel strange. I have deja vu and amnesia at the same time.

John | Manteca, CA

Put them in the water bucket first...that should help

My customers don't seem to have much trouble blowing the type r or the fubars. But I know many of them mess with the gains...probably because I specifically tell them not too, and that I won't honor the warranty if they do. But, you know how it goes. I guess I need to put a dab or 2 of CA glue over the hole..lol

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Ok Flakman, put strip neon on the speaker wires and route them in  a fancy "swirl"  lol kidding. (but sure it's been done).

I usually use nice heavy pretty colored speaker wires and run them back into the enclosure by the subs terminals. Makes em look nice when inverting.

I also like to "flip-flop" subs if the cone is also impressive, but usually only the backside is.

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master5 - that would actually work good. I've always found the strip neon to have a high pitch whine when plugged in. Any brands that don't?

btw - your paragraphs are MUCH easier to read  

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The Flakman
I feel strange. I have deja vu and amnesia at the same time.

John | Manteca, CA

I can't really reccomend a particular brand. I doubt if noise would enter through the speaker wires although it is possible I guess,some neon have fairly high AC voltage.

But most likely the leakage would enter through the signal or voltage. Perhaps experimenting with the location of the transformer can help. I don't really use neon to light up the speaker wires..that was a joke although it could be a pretty cool effect...I usually use neon or leds to light up an amp rack/underglow or plexi enclosure. Haven't had many noise problems. I use Street Glow generally since one of my best friends worked there so I am familiar with thier product.. But I can't say if it's better or worse then any other as far as radiating noise.

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I like that nouse, a little "classier" then chromed wire loom.

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Well, I'd have to admit it would compliment the "spining" grills quite effectivly.

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They sent us one set for sale, one for display. I am sure by now the displays are toast, missing or beaten up but the one for sale has so much dust on it you can barely tell what it is.

I told the sales floor that if they ever called and asked me "how much to install the spining grills" that I would reach through the phone and stangle them..lol

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I want to thank you for all your input.  The design I came up with for my box required me to install it with the magnet side out.  Reason being...the box needed to be as flat as possible so I wouldn't lose trunk functionality...

Here's a pic looking from the cabin into the trunk with the rear seats folded down.

I asked the question mainly because I'm considering a ported version of this box and I wanted to know if it mattered which way the sub was installed.

One advantage I've noticed over an inverted mount in the sealed box is that no matter what I put in the trunk, no matter how full or empty the trunk is...the bass output doesn't change since it's firing into a defined space that doesn't change, as opposed to if it was mounted regularly and you start filling the trunk with stuff...the bass changes because you're now changing the environment that that sub is firing into.

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'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp

Well I would imagine as long as the cone of the sub itself wasn't block it will move the same amount air. Regardless,with all else being equal I don't feel there should be any noticable difference in sound but I do agree there can always be circumstances that might have an affect.

I like your setup and it makes sense utilizing the space you are working with. However keep in mind that depending on the frequency you wish to tune the box if changing to vented will generally require a larger enlosure as well as room for the port. Since your enclosure needs to be so short, slot porting is the way to go. Find out the airspace and port volume reccomended for your sub and take it from there.

Good Luck.

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Well...one installer looked at it and suggested that I lift the sub up a little bit by inserting a ring or two to create more space between the face of the cone and the bottom of the box.  The way that box is designed, it originally had approx. .9 cu. ft. (for the Xenon sub), but when I put the Alpine in...it called for about .6 cu. ft.  So...I inserted a baffle that blocked off the section that runs the length of the amp and now it's between .5 & .6 cu. ft.  He suggested that I take the baffle out and let the Alpine work in the .9 cu. ft. space if I want more bottom end on it.

The porting (if I did it) was going to be a simple tube port since I can cut the hole and insert the tube.  The outlet was going to aim towards the back of the seat where there's about 3-4 inches of space between the edge of the box and the actual back of the seat.  That way I don't have to worry about it ever getting blocked.  I think a slot port for this particular box would create too many intricacies in building it.  I'm still trying to keep the slim design.  I might be able to port it running it at the .9 cu. ft.  I'll build a test box and see how it goes.

I do like some of the ideas that were passed on though...aluminum tubing to run the wires through...could add to the aluminum look I already have back there between the amp and the cap.  Now I just have to decide which sub I'm going to put back in there when I get them all repaired.  The Audiobahn is rated at 600 watts, but...a lot of folks seem to be giving Audiobahn a bad rap.  The Phoenix Gold (which lasted the longest of the 3) is rated at 450 watts, but...it loves the bigger enclosure.  The Alpine (500 watts)...well, you see how it looks and it seems to hit nicely.  Now that I think about it...the Alpine seemed to work better when the box was at .9 cu. ft.  It didn't go out until after I took it down to .5 cu. ft.  What you think???

Mike

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'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp

By "go out" I assume you mean the alpine sub blew. Logic would deduct it was being overpowered. If anything, making the enclosure smaller should have allowed even greater power handling.

Too small a box and too big a box both are not good for thier own reasons. I always try to stay as close as possible to the manufactures reccomendations for optimal performance and life. But you still need to watch the power because one of the many things I am learning here is that an amp can produce quite a bit more then it's rated RMS power if overdriven and setup improperly, hence the blown subs. If you haven't read the many posts on this topic I recently tried to blow a sub using an amp with 10 times less rms rating then the sub. Not only did the sub perform surprisingly well, I was not able to destroy it, and believe me, I tried. The amp gave out after 3-4 hours however, that was due to my test procedures which basically toasted it.

I have alot of faith that under normal usage the sub and amp would have survived.

As far as porting it can make a nice improvement to your lower end output (3db theoretically) but it must be done properly or you will lose performance and in the worst case greatly reduce the power handling of the sub at certain frequencies. You also need to take port noise into consideration. The diameter and placement can effect this. also the length needed my not physically fit into a small enclosure, which is why I suggested slot porting. However, flex port might do the trick if needed and,space permitting.

As you stated, take this into consideration when deciding on the sub. Find out the airspace and port volume needed and if the diameter fits make sure the length will as well. If you are going to use an amp that could overpower the sub adjust the gain appropriatly and conservativly or expect to blow another one.

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Yes...I did mean that the sub the blew.  So if using a sub that's more closely rated to the output of the amp...the Audiobahn is rated at 600 watts.  What's funny, the sub with the lowest RMS wattage lasted the longest on this amp.  The Xenon sub lasted a few months, the Alpine lasted about a month and a half and the Audiobahn lasted all of two days.

Now maybe I didn't have the gains set properly, but I'm sure amplifying a signal that's already amplified could have caused some problems.  I'm hoping the signal line driver will do the trick of cleaning up the signal.

If overpowering would be a big problem, then why would a 200 watt sub be able to handle a 600 watt amp and not blow?  I ask this only because I've seen it for myself.  The guy has an all Memphis system except for the Phoenix Gold Bass CUBE signal processor.  He says that is the reason he can feed 600 clean watts to a 200 watt sub and not fry it.  Is there any truth to that?

I know slight overpowering is fine in most cases...if I recall correctly, someone said 20-25% over the listed RMS wattage is fine in the right application (I'm assuming a sealed box of the proper volume). 

The other problem I have is that the Alpine Tech (directly from the main company) told me that the Type-R sub is more than capable of handling 600 watts, that the 500 watt RMS listing is a conservative wattage for that sub.  He said feeding it up to 1000 watts is doable, but you start getting up into the red zone and end up pushing to failure.

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'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp

From what I have gathered about "overpowering", it doesn't simply take into account the ratings of the components. It is how they are used. Theoretically ,I would think you could use an amp with as much power as you wanted within reason, as long as it was set up correctly and not overdriven or abused (played at levels so loud that you can actually hear damage beginning).

There could be a few factors as to why some subs lasted longer then others in your case. But the bottom line is they blew due to overpowering them in one way or another. The "dirty" input is a contributor, enclosure specs and the ability of the different subs and thier components to handle the thermo/mechanical stresses are another factor. Gain settings as well are a major factor as mentioned.

Aside from how the system is used and setup, I would think that moderation is the safest bet either way. Reagardless of the ratings being lessor or greater then the subs, there is no reason that with proper setup that the subs should suffer a premature death.

Hope I explained this well enough.

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another thing not disscussed is the final ohms load at the amp. I am not aware of the ohms setup for any of the subs you had but that will have a major effect on power output if not taken into consideration. And if the amp is not one ohm stable and you are dropping below 2 ohms a great chance of clipping can occur and drive up the power considerably as mentioned earlier.

As far as what Alpine told you I sell the type r's and have had several blow. I know none of them had ampliflers of 1000 watts rms but probably 600w at the most. But once again they were overpowered due to any or all of the factors I mentioned, and this is what caused them to die.

Alot of my customers turn up the gain themselves, even after I warn them of the pending disastor if doing so. Some how they got the impression that the gain control is a volume control or they see me lowering it while setting up the system. They question me thinking I am purposly lowering the power of the amp so as not to damage the sub. They are partially correct, I am doing it purposly to save the sub(s) but am not changing the specs of the amp. Simply matching it to the decks output voltage, the volume control on the deck will still make it louder but they get so hung up on the "number" of the volume display that they can't seem to grasp the logic.

Once again it was more about how the system was used (or abused) that caused the blown subs, not the specs of the amp or sub per say.

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Um...I almost bought the Pheonix Gold Xenon 600.1...puts out 600 watts rms between 1-4 ohms.

Hows it working for you allmet??? Some companies underrate the power handling of their subwoofers...example is my sub...its an old schoo JL Audio 15 W4. Rated at a measely 200 watts power handling...I've pushed over 500 watts to it and it still plays as good as ever...never blew. Dunno why but its a beast of a woofer.

Also I have an old school JL Audio 12W6 (dual 6 ohms) rated for 300 watts rms power handling...but its been pushed with about 450 watts rms and didn't break a sweat.

Also a line drive can be very dangerous if not properly used...actually its not really needed. Most amps are made to only handle so much input signal voltage. Using a line driver can really damage some amplifiers that aren't designed to handle high voltage input.

Hey aznboi, good to see you again.

I would think with a company like JL it would not really be an issue of "underrated" but more an honest rating. That company is on top of thier game which is one of the reasons they don't release new lines until they are extensivly tested and perform up to thier standards. I remember years ago the delay on the 18w6. I personally perfer multiple smaller drivers over fewer or single large ones but I must tell you, that 18 sounded really good and worked in a very small sealed enclosure. Shook the heck out of the sound room.

As far as overpowering the JL w6's I have done it repeatedly in a usac competition camaro, using 1000 watts rms to a single 12w6 in a vented enclosure. Primarily an SQ vehicle but for the outlaw event we would crank the gain and it would produce incredible SPL levels for a single 12. I think we one a throphy every time. But we had to bring a spare since it would damage the sub (the price we paid for winning) lol

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Aznboi...the amp is truly a tank!  On a trip to FL, the trunk was packed full of luggage (a suitcase sitting right on top of the amp) and during the 12 hour trip...the amp didn't overheat until we were already in FL and the outside temps had reached 90+.  Can't imagine how hot it was in the trunk with all that luggage, but after turning the music down for a minute...amp cut right back in and carried on.  Honestly, the amp hasn't proven to be any problem whatsoever.  I love the fact that no matter what configuration you hook it up in, it's rated to kick out 600 watts.  In actuality, mine was birthsheeted at 612 watts rms.

As far as the line driver, I think will prove useful since I'm utilizing the signal from the factory amplifier (which may kick up some dirt in the signal itself) and be transferred to the Xenon amp "soiling" the signal further.  If I was able to install my Pioneer head unit now, I'd carry forward without the line driver, but since I have to wait...I want to try cleaning up the signal to see if I have better results.

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Master5...to answer your question...the Xenon sub has a dual 2 ohm voice and I wired it in series to create a 4 ohm load on the amp.  The Alpine Type-R was the same.  The Audiobahn has dual 4 ohm voice coils and I wired it in parallel for a 2 ohm load on the amp.  According to Phoenix Gold...the amp has the ability to produce the same wattage at impedences as low as 1 ohm (and from my further understand, even at 8 ohms).

I do understand what you're saying about overpowering.  I can tell you the guy with the all Memphis set up is running a 10" Memphis sub with dual 4 ohm voice coils wired in parallel for a 2 ohm load at the amp.  The Memphis amp is rated to kick out 600 watts x1 @ 2 ohms.  When I say the sub pounded loud and clear without sounding like it was being strained in any way...I'm not kidding.   The guy even had it in a sealed box that was bigger than what specs called for.  Go figure!

In your opinion, for the setup I'm running...which sub do you think would serve my purposes better, the Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2, Alpine Type-R, or the Audiobahn DUB1000???  I've currently got a Xenon 10D2 running in my Xterra, but it's only working off a Kenwood KAC-7020 (460 watts x 1 @ 4 ohms) and it sounds GREAT!!!

I certainly appreciate all the input and guidance.  I have learned in this industry...you can never stop learning.  Having this forum available for guys like me and having guys like you willing to share your knowledge and experience is priceless.  That being said...thanks a million!!!

Mike

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'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp

Whats up Master...good to see you too.

Well allnet...600 watts is perfect for the Alpine Type X....it'll handle it and sound very clean...I am very fond of the Type X's...something about carbon fiber makes me spooge lol

Yes, but...the first sub I ever owned was an Audiobahn that lasted 5+ years and went through 3 of my vehicles before being sold.  Not to mention all the other folks I've run into with Audiobahn that love em.  Audiobahn seems to be the brand you either love or hate...no middle ground.

What's funny is...of the 3 subs I've got, the Audiobahn had the smoothest response.  It'll get another chance once I get everything squared away.

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'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp

But where all three in the same enclosure...or in boxes built to their specs for the flattest response??

No problem allmet33, I enjoy helping out here and it keeps me out of trouble. lol. And I also learn alot here, usually from a mistake, but regardless, still learning every day here and in the field.

As far as which sub will work best for you I am not really the right person to ask. Of all the subs we sell the only one that you are considering is the type r's. I tend to favor JL but mostly because IMO they have the best sound, not just loud but I actually can hear correct tone kick drums and other things a musician like me would notice. Most people seem to like a good sounding sub, but mostly gauge them by loudness.

I think you should work with the one you liked best, which appears to be the audiobahn. And I would have no reason to doubt they will hold up if you don't overpower/overdrive the system. I am not sure about the preamp you are using so I can't opinionate on it but a good adj loc works fine for me. Using the factory system will never be quite as clean as a good aftermarket w/ preout IMO but as far as bass they seem to work for me just fine. Once again you got to be careful with the gain setting and usage of the system. I would think damage can be caused quicker by an amp with a lower rms rating set up improperly then going over and using it properly.

But as my experiment proved to me, if the amp cannot produce enough power to damage a sub...it won't...EVER.

But if an amp is overdriven into power levels that exceed what the sub can handle, thats when you spend your extra cash replacing subs.

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Master5...thanks again.  Once I get everything back up and running...I'll post my results and let you know how it turns out.

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'06 Hyundai Azera - Pioneer FH-P4200MP / Factory center channel & tweeters / Infinity Kappa 62.7i's; all 4 doors, 2 Phoenix Gold Xenon 10D2 10" subs pushed w/Phoenix Gold Xenon 600.1 amp

cool

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