tuning 6X9 speakers

Everyone's going with subs but i've decided to try out 6X9s. According to my research 6X9s are supposed to sound better because all sound come from one point. However i need to know how to tune them. Can i use winisd for this purpose and if so how do i do it. Want these speakers to to produce everything with a good bass response. Also what is the most adviseable frequency to tune these speakers to. Thanks

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Prodigal Son

what do you mean all sound comes from one point? do you mean that you get the full range of sound from 6x9's because they play all different frequencys? i wouldnt get 6x9's unless i have absolutly no space for subs. if you got subs i would take the 6x9's out and just get good front speakers to get the best soundstage. thats just my opinion. and i wouldnt know what to tune them to.

Um...sub bass you you can't really see where it's coming from...its not really directional.

And that thing about 6x9's sounding better than a sub...I'm not sure about that

what kind of vehicle...?

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2007 Acura TSX
SQ setup in the works

Yes in theory 6X9s do sound better because it acts like a 'point source'. My personal preferance is towards having a system in components: sub mids highs but i'm just experimenting with 6X9s. Some time ago we had a pair of pioneer 6X9s in a toyota corolla hatch back and it sounded incredible considering it was powered by only an equalizer. By point source it really means that all frequencies are produced from the same point. Well don't really have any vehicle for these speakers just experimenting but i own a 1991 mitsubishi galant and that's most likely where i'll try the speakers. Just as i said everyones going for subs hope i get some feedback from people who have success with 6X9s. Thanks

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Prodigal Son

i have 6x9's, jl audio 3 way. before i had subs i would max them out to get the most bass i could from them, will 6x9's you just cant hit lower with. they are great for mids but as subwoofers they lack that punch. you will get your mids from them but dont expect much for low bass without distortion.

No, prodigal, in no "theory" does a 6 X 9 sound better than any similar-sized driver.  And at no time would you have had speakers "powered by only an equalizer".  An equalizer is not an amplifier.

You are confusing the benefit of point source speakers as replacement for a subwoofer.  Point source is (or could be) a benefit for use as front soundstage mid-bass/mid/tweeter components, not the subwoofer.  Use quality point source for your front soundstage, as their benefit will not be appreciated in the rear.  And use a sub;  there is no replacement for that.

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Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.

while i may agree that an equalizer is not an amplifier there are equalizers with booster capabilities. In fact i have one i used to use before. It has a dedicated subwoofer channel and the high power end had a booster because the speakers played much louder when connected to the equalizer than when connected directly to the HU. Now the word 'theory' is what i used. We now that nothing is perfect but we can appreciate and ideal situation. The ideal would be to have a full range speaker which could produce all frequencies thus giving a point source and if that is ever achieved the SQ from that speaker would outperform any component set up. Now let's look at the reality- it is virtually impossible (and not to mention costly) to produce an efficient full range speaker because it would be difficult for that speaker to play bass notes and midrange notes at the same time. In other words you would get alot of dips and peaks in the frequency response and this is where the component set up outperforms a full range speaker. Like i said i was talking in theory. Never-the-less i am still left with the dilema of trying to build a suitable box for my 6X9 speakers again i'll remind you people that i'm experimenting and looking for suggestions. Thank for the valuable contributions. Learning is dynamic and we can all learn from each other. Thanks

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Prodigal Son

Theory aside..as far as what "sounds" better is always a subjective issue.

Now IMO since most 6x9s are used full range and mounted either on a rear deck or in some case's a door...point source if anything is hurt..after all what kind of a decent sound stage can come from the rear or pointing at your feet or ribs?

In other words I do not believe you can compare an actual subwoofer setup to a 6x9 or any full range speaker.

As azn states subwoofer frequencies are "omni-directional" but still..in reality we all know you can tell it is coming from the rear in most cases... but,I have built as well as judged many sq vehicles that either have actual subs up front...or enough midbass up front to where the bass truly is in the front stage..or at least has the "illusion" which makes no difference because it sounds incredible. This can be done only with proper placement and cross over setup and adjustment.

However..if a particular person is happy with the bass produced by 6x9's alone, then thats fine for them..I have heard some produce very loud and deep bass...but regardless...this has nothing to do with point source or comparing a full range to a sub. if you want alot of sub bass...use a sub in an enclosure. If you want good point source use any speaker setup that places the mids/highs at the same physical point. But..if the speaker is not physically positioned to give as close to perfect as possible imaging, it won't matter what kind or size speaker it is.

I can tell you one thing I know for sure..and you all can verify this as well. Take a crappy set of speakers, either self enclosed or installed into an enclosure.   Position them so they are equal distant from both your ears and see how good it sounds..well if any of you have speakers at your PC you already experinced this. If you take much better speakers and place one right next to your left leg..and another one 3 or 4 feet away point at you right leg you will see what I mean. The overall quality might sound better with the beter speaker in some cases..but the imaging will be much better with the cheaper speakers properly placed to reproduce the stereo.

But since it is not feasible in all but the most extreme custom vehicle to be seated with the speakers at ear level and equidistant from each ear..the best we can do is floor pods aiming up and towards the listener..this is where point source helps IMO. You can also use processors like the audiocontrol ESP with a center channel speaker which helps to create the illiusion of perfect imaging in a much less then perfect environment.

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oh..to your question...lol

well if you are going to put the 6x9 into enclosure and tune them for the best possible bass response you should be able to use a program if the T/S parameters of the woofer cone are accepted by the program. (and if you can get the parameters). It can be ported as well but don't expect to tune a 6 x 9 to 30hz. More realistic would be 45hz and to be safe I would want at least a 12db slope, 18 or 24 if possible, and to use an amp that has a subsonic filter..otherwise if you try to get too much bass..good bye speaker.

Now unless the 6x9 is "bi-ampable" all you can really do is set the amp for "high pass" and dial in the lower frequencies until you can hear the 6 x 9 distorting..at that point back it down a bit and it should be optimal.

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OK let me clarify a few things. I am not saying that component set ups are not good hell yeah they rock and FYI i'd never run 6X9s for my personal set up. I'm just saying that component set up and 6X9s set up at same volume the 6X9s should sound better but having dedicated speakers is the way to go i agree hope this settles everything.

Now that you mentioned staging and imaging i am awaiting a set of 6.5"components. I was thinking of fiberglassing pods on the lower corner of the door next to the kick panels having each component facing directly up into the headrest ie the face of the person in the front seat 1 for each side. Will that be satisfactory for my front stage set up?

Also i am currently running the factory speakers in their original locations (front dash and rear deck) powered by the HU. Should i keep them when i install the components or should i disconnect them?

How important is rear fill? I have 2 5.5" sealed cone speakers i plan on placing in the rear deck for rear fill and run them off the same amplifier as the components. Will this interfere with the front stage imaging?

Any suggestions?

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Prodigal Son

All of these are good questions...however theory and opinions aside this is the best suggestion you are going to get.....

just try it different ways and see what sounds best to you. the automobile environment is extremely unpredictable as far as audio..as well as individual preferences.

Now if you want my personal opinion...when it comes to speakers in a vehicle sound system..I am from the "less is more" school. All a really good sounding system needs is properly placed front speakers, either coaxial or components mounted on the same plane and aimed towards the listener (this may take a little trial and error for perfection but..it works),  for rear fill just a small full range is fine..I do not like alot of rear fill , i hear too many systems in which it pulls the stage back too much...and a small sub..for my personal systems I have never required more then a single quality 10'' in a ported encloure.

Now what would be cool IMO is if you could build custom pods for the kick panels that had sufficient airspace to house those 6 x 9's.  It probably wouldn't fit most vehicles but if it could that and maybe a 4'' or 5 1/4 for rear fill..and a small sub if needed... would be different and would sound great. I did that once on a demo vehicle but is was an old chevy panal truck so it had alot of room.... the front stage was great...the imaging was excellent..and it was loud as BALLS !

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Oh as far as the rear fill being a problem..as long as the rear speakers are on a dedicated amp..or the rear channels of a 4ch...you can adjust it to taste..not an issue.

When I have built some competition vehicles where I would use one amp to run everything...(fronts, rear fill, subs, center channels) I had to relay on placement as well as building passive cross over networks..and using resistors and series/parallel wiring to optimize.

You have it much easier if you just use a 4 channel or 2-2channel amps that have adjustable crossovers and gain control..real easy to dial in the best sound.

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Now you mentioned 'air space' are there specs fpr components or 6X9 pods or is it just an enclosure In other words will any size enclosure work for these speakers?

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Prodigal Son

it depends on the manufacturer..most do not give specs because the speakers are mostly used in a free air or "infinite baffle" mount and does not require those specs to be given...so the following choices...

Try to find speakers that the manufacturer gives the specs...

Experiment with enclosure size...rule of thumb..the smaller the enclosure..the tighter the bass..the larger the enclosure..the deeper the bass..you want to find a compromise working with the physical space you have.

figure out the parameters yourself..this can be done but is quite involved...I don't reccomend it unless you have alot of time and patience..the proper equipment (meter, o scope, test bench, signal generator, special resistors etc) and you need to find a source to teach how to do it..I have the procedure on an old VHS and haven't done this in years.

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so if i decide to make pods can i just make a small pod just to house the speakers? Should the pod be sealed (since i'm fibergalassing it) or should i make accomodation for some kind of vent? Does the enclosure type and size affect the component performance and if so how? Once i can get the compnent to play about 60 or 70 Hz just for a little bass fill (not loud) inside the vehicle i think that'll be sufficient for me. Any particulars i have to follow to achive this? Thanks

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Prodigal Son

It will probably be difficult enough just to construct a pod with sufficient airspace as it is..so I would not worry about venting..plus it would be a bit technical to determine the exact airspace..fit the vent and in some cases you might not even be able to get the parameters for a 6 x 9.. But this is not to say it can't be done..just more time, effort and trial and error.

The 6 x 9 pods I built for the truck were sealed..but I had room to give decent airspace..I don't think you need to worry about being utlra percise with the amount of airspace since as I stated a 6 x 9 is designed for infinite baffle. Just make them as large as possible if you want deeper bass.

In a similar discussion I have read some posts where deeper bass was achieved in the kick pods by opening up the back. I would imagine if the pod is mounted in such a way where as much of the sound wave of the front is seperated from the back..you might be close to an infinite baffle which should sound great for a 6 x 9 ,so once again you might want to experiment.

What I would do is build the pods with a removable back. Place them in thier mounting locations and listen to them open back...sealed and maybe open with some insulation,polyfill etc..just mess around until you like the way it sounds. It will take a little time but this way you don't have to worry about rocket science and percise measurments etc...just trust your ear.

If this was for an all out SQ competition vehicle it would be more of a concern,but there is no reason you can't achieve an excellent front stage, with good imaging and plenty loud this way for your personal enjoyment.

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