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how to get more volume out of my system?

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=92341
Printed Date: November 29, 2021 at 8:54 AM


Topic: how to get more volume out of my system?

Posted By: 3rd gen
Subject: how to get more volume out of my system?
Date Posted: March 31, 2007 at 3:28 PM

I have a 2001 Eclipse GT. Here is my current set up:

HU: Eclipse CD7100
Front Speakers: Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1
Rear Speakers: Infinity Reference 6x9's
4-Channel: Eclipse XA4000
Subwoofer: Eclipse SW7000
Mono-Block: Eclipse XA1000

I set my gains on the XA4000 using the clipping light built into the amp. I had the volume up to about 67 out of 80, and then set the gains just before the point where the clipping light comes on.

I want to know if there was any way that I could get more volume out of my system and still keep the clarity? I find myself listening to it at around 60 out of 80 on the freeway most of the time. I do not want to listen to it maxed out all the time, but I want to be able to turn it up a bit more when a song I like comes on.



Replies:

Posted By: ferretvw
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 12:01 AM
First of all I would do a search for adjusting the gain as just looking at the light is not the most accurate way. That headunit has 8v preouts if I remember correctly so on that amp I believe you want the gain all the way down. The number that the headunit goes to is basically arbitrary it doesn't really mean much I have installed basically that same setup numerous times and it always sounds awesome so I guess I don't understand what exactly you are looking for just more volume or what?

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2008 Scion xB
Pioneer AVIC-D3
RF 3Sixty.2 sound processor
Stock speakers (for now ;))




Posted By: aznboi3644
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 1:36 AM
what enclosure is your sub in??




Posted By: 3rd gen
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 1:51 AM
The gain is pretty much all the way down. I figured the clipping light wasn't very accurate so I positioned the setting pretty far from where the point at which the light goes on (better to err on the safe side that the light was too sensitive to clipping than not sensitive enough).

Yes I know the actual number the HU goes to is arbitrary, but the ratio of volume number to max is pretty standard. 3/4 full volume is still 3/4 full volume. Shouldn't it be almost unbearably loud at 67/80 (83% to full)?

Yes I am looking for more volume and I know turning up the gain is NOT the way to get that volume. I guess all I can do is add more sound deadening??

My sub is in a generic 0.85 ft^3 mdf enclosure. The sub levels are fine, I just want my kappa perfect's to be louder.




Posted By: speakermakers
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 2:18 AM
I have extensive experience selling and installing the very equipment that you have. The answer is a line driver. The xa4000 and xa1000 are capable of much more than the 8 volts that your deck can belt out. Using a device like an Audiocontrol Matrix you can maximize your systems headroom. You simply won’t believe the difference in output. I know because I sell and install this setup almost daily (because its great!), and every once in a while a customer will not go for the matrix and I see what that’s like too.

Go to Audiocontrols website and download the gain setting tech paper. Setting gains on a line driver is different than most people think. Plus getting quality info from a great company like Audiocontrol is always a good thing.




Posted By: 3rd gen
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 9:20 AM
speakermakers, that looks like a really nice piece of equipment. I will definitely look into that.




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 3:10 PM

Um, this guy would not be. The Matrix is not going to do much for you in this application when you have a 8volt rms output. If the customer wants louder, more power, more speakers is the way to go. All more input voltage is going to do, and a marginal amount at that, is afford him to allow the gain to go lower. If he is taking the amp to full putput, the amp is going to make the same amount of power with 2 volts as it will with 8 up until the point of clipping. So again, more power, more speakers. Louder is primarily a function of a subwoofer, look to a second sub and a second XA1000.



-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: Silvrefox
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 9:40 PM
forbidden wrote:

If the customer wants louder, more power, more speakers is the way to go. . So again, more power, more speakers. Louder is primarily a function of a subwoofer, look to a second sub and a second XA1000.



Huh? Now that's a sales pitch I'd love to see in my shop. At least if successful. As far as the more volume pitch, I could get on that boat all the way if I was to get the right answer to one question: Do you want a louder overall system or just subs?
I've been watching this post with some interest because I myself want more overall output with maximum clarity. I do love me some serious kickbass (bout 60-150hz, tight and fast, ya know?), but gotta carry some serious lows. For example, Korn's Blind, that's my jam! The sub bass in that song is so low and loud, but when the rest of the music kicks in, very punchy and raw. I also want that loud.
Now you fellas driving your Bugattis to the marina to get on your weekend yacht are gonna tell me go buy 4 sets of Focal Utopia 3 ways, fiberglass me a new dash and doors, power 'em up with the JBL crown amps, find myself the most obscure and ridiculously expensive subwoofers, and finally trade in my first-born for exotic materials from the four corners of the earth to effectively deaden my car. Is that about right?
That is, as I already stated, ridiculous. Now, am I saying that I will achieve my goal with WalMart's best? No way. But I do believe in tuning and placement. I myself have the problem that I would like to use most of my stock locations and achieve this and I drive an 04
Stratus sedan. Yup, by-9s in all four corners with Polk db tweets in the front to just bring that stage up a bit, 1 10" CompVR in the trunk all being powered by MTXs 5-channel Blue Thunder (old school, baby) being run by a Kenwood Excelon KDC-X589. Sound great to moderate volume, but I start distorting at about 3/4 twist. Any takers?




Posted By: dwarren
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 10:25 PM

Yes, your gain is improperly set. What amp specifically do you have? the 5400x? If so that amp is only rated at about 25 watts per channel at 4 ohms, which will put some volume limitations there as well.

Forbidden is right on. There is no substitute for displacement and power. Plain and simple no matter how effecient a speaker claims to be, two will always out do it with the equal power porportion.

As far as kick bass and low range mid bass, your sub section provides an incredible support system. Even if you have your sub crossed over at about 80 hertz, the key is high pass cross over and how well it blends with the rest of the system. If done right, it literally sounds as if the bass is coming form the front speakers, you can't even place where the bass is coming from, i call it blending well. Like my IDQ's do so well.



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Posted By: 3rd gen
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 10:35 PM
forbidden wrote:

Um, this guy would not be. The Matrix is not going to do much for you in this application when you have a 8volt rms output. If the customer wants louder, more power, more speakers is the way to go. All more input voltage is going to do, and a marginal amount at that, is afford him to allow the gain to go lower. If he is taking the amp to full putput, the amp is going to make the same amount of power with 2 volts as it will with 8 up until the point of clipping. So again, more power, more speakers. Louder is primarily a function of a subwoofer, look to a second sub and a second XA1000.




Thanks for the correction forbidden! I was looking forward to an answer from you an haemphyst.

I am already wanting a second SW7000 and XA1000, but I want my interior speakers, more specifically my front kappa perfects, to be louder.

So would going with say, Boston Pro60's make a large difference in volume? Since the are 3 ohm speakers, they would draw more power from the amp and therefore play louder and clearer, correct?




Posted By: dwarren
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 10:37 PM
3rd gen wrote:

forbidden wrote:

Um, this guy would not be. The Matrix is not going to do much for you in this application when you have a 8volt rms output. If the customer wants louder, more power, more speakers is the way to go. All more input voltage is going to do, and a marginal amount at that, is afford him to allow the gain to go lower. If he is taking the amp to full putput, the amp is going to make the same amount of power with 2 volts as it will with 8 up until the point of clipping. So again, more power, more speakers. Louder is primarily a function of a subwoofer, look to a second sub and a second XA1000.




Thanks for the correction forbidden! I was looking forward to an answer from you an haemphyst.

I am already wanting a second SW7000 and XA1000, but I want my interior speakers, more specifically my front kappa perfects, to be louder.

So would going with say, Boston Pro60's make a large difference in volume? Since the are 3 ohm speakers, they would draw more power from the amp and therefore play louder and clearer, correct?

From a 3 ohm speaker to a 4 ohm speaker there will not be a difference, however the boston's  may sound better.



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Posted By: 3rd gen
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 11:08 PM
i am fine with how the kappa's sound. I just want them to play louder!

I feel like, for the set up I have, that I should be able to turn it up enough for it to be unbearable to sit in the car.




Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 11:27 PM
3rd gen wrote:

Thanks for the correction forbidden! I was looking forward to an answer from you an haemphyst.

I am already wanting a second SW7000 and XA1000, but I want my interior speakers, more specifically my front kappa perfects, to be louder.


Sorry - I completely missed this thread... I will agree completely with Rob and Dan. Either more power, or more drivers. For sheer SPL, I'd go with more drivers. For SQ, either more efficient drivers, or more power. 25 watts I think is a large portion of your limitation here. For comparisons sake, to go from (1) 4 ohm driver with 25 watts, to (1) 4 ohm driver with 50 watts, you will realize a 3dB increase in output. Barely a noticeable difference. To REALLY notice, you'll want to go around 100 watts per speaker.

I personally use (about) 1260 watts peak for my doors alone... (125 per tweeter and midrange, with 380 watts per mid-bass) I have never realized an audible distortion, and I have more SPL than I can EVER use on a regular basis. There is the rule... More power, or more drivers. That's all you can do.

Speakermakers' suggestion of a line driver is simply ridiculous. If you are already running your amp (JUST) at clipping, that's all you will ever get out of that amplifier, (in that configuration...) with those drivers.

-------------
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."




Posted By: 3rd gen
Date Posted: April 01, 2007 at 11:47 PM
Thanks for the reply haemphyst! Well right now, the XA4000 that I am running the Kappa Perfect's with should be putting out about 125 watts RMS at 4 ohms, which is just as much as you run your tweeters and mids at. I can still turn the system up pretty much full volume and it is not loud enough at times. I guess I am stuck right now. I'll try throwing in a bunch more sound deadening and see how much that helps, but I doubt it will make any drastic differences.

I guess what I can try next is bridge the channels of the XA4000 to the Kappa Perfects, and run the rear 6x9's off of the head unit. This will put about 350 watts RMS to each side of the front. I am just scared that this is way too much power and I will blow the speakers in a week.




Posted By: forbidden
Date Posted: April 02, 2007 at 12:33 AM
Silvrefox wrote:

forbidden wrote:

If the customer wants louder, more power, more speakers is the way to go. . So again, more power, more speakers. Louder is primarily a function of a subwoofer, look to a second sub and a second XA1000.



Huh? Now that's a sales pitch I'd love to see in my shop. At least if successful. As far as the more volume pitch, I could get on that boat all the way if I was to get the right answer to one question: Do you want a louder overall system or just subs?
I've been watching this post with some interest because I myself want more overall output with maximum clarity. I do love me some serious kickbass (bout 60-150hz, tight and fast, ya know?), but gotta carry some serious lows. For example, Korn's Blind, that's my jam! The sub bass in that song is so low and loud, but when the rest of the music kicks in, very punchy and raw. I also want that loud.
Now you fellas driving your Bugattis to the marina to get on your weekend yacht are gonna tell me go buy 4 sets of Focal Utopia 3 ways, fiberglass me a new dash and doors, power 'em up with the JBL crown amps, find myself the most obscure and ridiculously expensive subwoofers, and finally trade in my first-born for exotic materials from the four corners of the earth to effectively deaden my car. Is that about right?
That is, as I already stated, ridiculous. Now, am I saying that I will achieve my goal with WalMart's best? No way. But I do believe in tuning and placement. I myself have the problem that I would like to use most of my stock locations and achieve this and I drive an 04
Stratus sedan. Yup, by-9s in all four corners with Polk db tweets in the front to just bring that stage up a bit, 1 10" CompVR in the trunk all being powered by MTXs 5-channel Blue Thunder (old school, baby) being run by a Kenwood Excelon KDC-X589. Sound great to moderate volume, but I start distorting at about 3/4 twist. Any takers?

I will take this but I am on my way out to the second job right now. From the outset, you are distorting for one of two reasons. The first reason is going to be that the headunit is well into clipping at 3/4 volume, this will vary from track to track and disc to disc as well. Secondly, regardless of the status of the amp, if it is out of gas, it is out of gas. Get a larger amp if you want it louder. Power is your friend when you want performance from any speaker, be it a sub or a component speaker. One of the guys should be able to pick up where I left off for now, time for me to go.



-------------
Top Secret, I can tell you but then my wife will kill me.




Posted By: aznboi3644
Date Posted: April 02, 2007 at 11:24 PM
pretty much what forbidden is saying is that for high volume and good sound...you need "headroom" meaning more power than you need...why?? because music is dynamic and the amp will not "run out of gas"...it will have the power it needs whenever it needs it.

like say you have a big ass diesel truck but you never haul anything...you CAN and have the ABILITY to but will use it whenever you need it...instead of pushing a lil v6 to its limits all the time it can't pull any more than its max.

Well forbidden I tryed to pull what I could from your post...hope I'm right




Posted By: 3rd gen
Date Posted: April 03, 2007 at 2:18 AM
Thanks aznboi and forbidden!

So I could achieve more volume by getting speakers with a lower RMS power rating? Doesn't make much sense to me.




Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: April 03, 2007 at 8:54 AM
3rd gen wrote:

Thanks aznboi and forbidden!

So I could achieve more volume by getting speakers with a lower RMS power rating? Doesn't make much sense to me.


NONONO!!! Lower power handling DOES NOT mean higher sensitivity. For more output, you MUST either:

1: Increase sensitivity. This is achieved by changing the speakers to more efficient ones, or increasing cone area. (adding speakers)

2: Increase power availablity. This is achieved by changing the amplifier for a higher powered one, or bridging the 4 channel to 2 channels, (as you suggested) but running ONE SET of speakers on it in bridged mode.

That is all you can do, man! Power or sensitivity... end of story. Lowering the power handling capability of your speakers is only going to cause you heartache, because the way you like to listen to your stuff (and don't take that the wrong way) you're gonna end up blowing your speakers in short order.

-------------
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."




Posted By: 3rd gen
Date Posted: April 03, 2007 at 3:19 PM
haemphyst wrote:

3rd gen wrote:

Thanks aznboi and forbidden!

So I could achieve more volume by getting speakers with a lower RMS power rating? Doesn't make much sense to me.


NONONO!!! Lower power handling DOES NOT mean higher sensitivity. For more output, you MUST either:

1: Increase sensitivity. This is achieved by changing the speakers to more efficient ones, or increasing cone area. (adding speakers)

2: Increase power availablity. This is achieved by changing the amplifier for a higher powered one, or bridging the 4 channel to 2 channels, (as you suggested) but running ONE SET of speakers on it in bridged mode.

That is all you can do, man! Power or sensitivity... end of story. Lowering the power handling capability of your speakers is only going to cause you heartache, because the way you like to listen to your stuff (and don't take that the wrong way) you're gonna end up blowing your speakers in short order.


Thanks haemphyst!

I know that lower power handling does not equal higher sensitivity, but if I am having a hard time finding speakers with equal power handling(110 WRMS) and a higher sensitivity (>90dB). Any suggestions?

I don't think I want to bridge the amp to the front speakers. I would be over-powering them by a factor of more than 3 times. I do not want to blow these speakers haha.

I seem to remember that I moved the jumper to the -4dB position on the x-overs. I'll try moving it back to zero or even +4dB to see how much difference that makes. I also need to get more sound deadening in there, so hopefully that will reduce the road noise a decent bit.




Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: April 03, 2007 at 10:15 PM
Unfortunately, I'm out of this now... I don't use off-the-shelf stuff, and anything I would suggest will be WAY below that efficiency rating. You'll need to check with the other guys, now.

-------------
It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."




Posted By: 3rd gen
Date Posted: April 05, 2007 at 12:52 PM
Thanks again haemphyst!

Anyone have suggestions for a good upgrade from my Infinity Kappa Perfect 6.1's?





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