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voltage problems

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=94295
Printed Date: March 28, 2024 at 11:48 AM


Topic: voltage problems

Posted By: stitch176917
Subject: voltage problems
Date Posted: May 27, 2007 at 8:29 PM

Ok, well to start i've got a Kenwood Kac X812D Amp and 2 Alpine Type R Dual 4ohm subs wired to 4ohm

I was having problems with them before they were blowing fuses anytime i would turn them up, I found out it was a voltage problem so i installed a second battery and it cured the problem 100%

So i figured now that i got that cured i would wire them the way i wanted to (down to put a 1ohm load on the amp) i wired them just like here https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/woofer_configurations.asp?Q=2&I=42 the top one, they work Very well until i turn them up. The gain is set to 1/2 and subwoofer setting on the deck is at 0
I pulled out a multi meter and turned the volume up to the point right before it would blow a fuse and it was reading as low as 12.9 and it would blow a fuse. So i bought another deep cycle battery i have both of them wired in parallel to the main one and both separatly grounded in the spare tire well. the amp is also grounded in the spare tire well.

With the new battery installed it is still fluxuating and blowing fuses...  Could this be a voltage problem? I am using all 4 gauge wire.

Thanks,




Replies:

Posted By: audioman2007
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 11:05 AM
ok, your first problem is dont get a 2nd battery. A 2nd battery is only good if you listen to alot of music with the ignition turned to acc. Also, all a 2nd battery does is give another load on the alternator. Because now insteal of the alt. needing to charge 1 battery, it now has to charge 2. Try doing this..... Hook your system up using 1 battery. Put the volume at a level which doesnt blow any fuses.  Then turn your headlights on and see if they dim at all. If they do, then you have a voltage problem. Your alt. is either too low amperage for the system or its just going sour. Also, what fuses are you blowing exactly?




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 7:18 PM
I'm blowing one 30amp fuse everytime. Oh, i didn't know that about the batteries. I have tried that before (turning them up to the point right before they blow and checked the headlights as well as the dash lights (with the car off in my garage with the lights off)) and they didn't dim, if this isn't a voltage problem what else could it be?




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 7:53 PM

Let me get this straight.... from what i'm reading, you put a DMM on the ilne to the amp, and saw 12.9 and you think there's no way it could blow the fuse, because it's 17.1 away from 30??

Give me a link to the specs on this amp. From where I stand, this is not a voltage problem. There's nothing wrong with a voltage of 12.9. Infact, it's quite normal. The fuse you are blowing, is it the onboard fuse in the amp, or is this fuse inserted in the power line coming to the amp.

It could be a voltage problem, but there's about 200 things i'd look at before that. Get me a link to the specs on your amp. Audioman2007 is right, i'm pretty sure a 2nd battery is not the appropriate solution. Let's figure out what your problem really is.

I don't wanna sound like a jerk, but what is your level of skill in car audio. Are you new to this, is your friend telling you this is the problem, or what?



-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 8:01 PM

while i'm sitting here wormy wants you to do something real quick.... he'll be on the internet in a second...

go to that ohm calculator and plug in the way you plugged up your subs... go visibly look at your connections to make sure you type it in right.

cause you may have inadvertantly wired a 16 ohm load to your amp



-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: audioman2007
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 8:10 PM
Well it all depends on which 30 amp fuse is burning. Is it the fuse in the amp or the power line fuse for the amp. If it is the fuse in the amp, then their is something wrong with the amp itself. if the subs were wired to give too low of a load, the protection light would come on and the amp wouldnt work, thus not blowing a fuse. If you are drawing more power to the amp that what the power in line fuse can handle, then your fuse is not enough. We need to know where this fuse is located first.




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 8:21 PM

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-l3SmgpMYvZ8/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=120&tab=morephotos&pi=3&i=113kacx812&display=L#Tab

found your amp, and probably your problem.... lemme guess, you're burning the in-line fuse....

there's 2 30 amp fuses on the side of your amplifier.... you need a 60 amp fuse in line..... give that a shot



-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 9:39 PM
jazzcustom131 wrote:

cause you may have inadvertantly wired a 16 ohm load to your amp

What's THAT got to do with anything... I can GUARANTEE that a 16 ohm load WOULDN'T blow the fuses.

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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 9:41 PM

haemphyst

true, thank you  wormy for making me look silly. I was thinking the same thing, but i was on the phone with him, and that was one of the questions he had. he does the numbers, I put it in and make it sound right. I'm sure he had some reason for asking...

i'll make him show his face and give an answer...

anywho, your thought... prolly has a 30 amp fuse in line to a 60 amp amplifier?



-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 28, 2007 at 11:59 PM

Good point on the idea that a 16 ohm load want blow a 30 amp fuse, but that's not my point and not the ohm load that I had in mind.  The amplifier will produce more power with less heat at lower impedance.  Typically, the reason why most amatuers clip amplifiers is because they think that the subs should be louder.  They turn the subs up until they sound like what they want them to.  Typically, on a typical mono block, the 1 ohm load will achieve a louder sound than the 4 ohm and 16 ohm load.  To be anywhere near as loud, you would have to turn the gain up higher to match the output.  This of course will most likely lead to clipping if they turn the gains up far enough.  I'm not positive about this idea and I definately haven't done any testing, but hypothetically speaking, I believe that the amplifier will be hotter at 4 ohms when producing 250 Watts than it will be at 1 ohm when producing 250 Watts.  The heat factor will most likely increase once the amplifier begins clipping.  I'm not saying he's only putting out 250 Watts.  I actually believe the amplifier is producing 774 Watts and outputting 533.  I don't know that that is what he is actually managing, but probably a descent, random approximation...lol.  If he will unplug the speaker wire at the amplifier and test the system while it is playing at the exact points the speaker wire connects to the amplifier, then I can help.  I seriously recommend connecting the amplifier at 1 ohm.  I could be wrong...correction, I probably am wrong after thinking about it, but 500 watts at 1 ohm will run the amplifier a little cooler and therefore using a little less amperage, than at 4 ohms.  I actually think I might be wrong...lol.  Help me please.  *sigh*

I was suppose to be asleep three hours ago jazzcustoms131.  Thanks for making me stay up to think!

500 Watts at 4 ohms still should be a sufficient amperage to cause the fuse to blow though.  Use a bigger fuse in-line to the amplifier.  Tell me the voltage that the amplifier is putting out utilizing the method that I laid out for you, and I will tell you what size fuse to use.  In fact, we can probably tell you what voltage to turn your gains to, as well as what fuse size to use, if you would learn how to set the gains by that method I laid out for you.  Just don't be an idiot like me and think that you can set it at the top voltage that the multimeter displays.

By the way, haemphyst, is it possible for me to purchase a multimeter that only reads peak voltages?  Let me guess, you would prefer I just give in and buy an Oscilloscope...lol.  I will when my girlfriend lets me...lol.  We have to buy her a car first, so it may be awhile.  Don't even rub it in jazzcustoms131!



-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 29, 2007 at 12:06 AM

So much for sleep...lol.

So, after actually reading the thread, I really should do that more often, I am guessing that the 12.9 is off of the speaker outputs.  If so, did you test it with or without the speaker hooked up?



-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 29, 2007 at 12:15 AM

haemphyst, if he turns his headunit up to the point just before clipping with the sub control down and then compare's the volume knob level for that to the volume knob level of the point just before clipping with the sub control up, what should the difference in the volume knob level be?

Does anyone else think I come up with the wierdest stuff...must be something about the ADHD...lol.



-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 29, 2007 at 8:41 AM

Yes, i am blowing one of the 30A inline fuses that are on the amp its self.  i just check i have the subs wired exactally like in the pic, i sent to the parallel calculator and it still says im giving the amp a 1 ohm load. I'd say my skill level is definitly not great, but i've got an understanding of a lot of this stuff.

I got the voltage reading from the power and ground wires going into the amp. (i thought it was where your supposed to check it)

and are you saying i should be using 60A fuses instead of 30?

Thanks.





Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 29, 2007 at 11:06 AM
I just rechecked all my wiring and it is all the way its supposed to be. i went out and bought a 60A fuse though and put that in the amp instead of two 30s and it works perfect.  while the car is off it runs as low as 10.9 volts and while its running it will go as low as 11.6 no lights will dim and no fuses blown =P im gonna go out for a spin to make sure it still runs fine. i will post after. Thanks alot




Posted By: audioman2007
Date Posted: May 29, 2007 at 1:05 PM
You dont want to replace the amp fuses with anything other than what is supposed to be there. In this case, keep the 2 30 amp fuses in place. If you put higher rated fuses in their place, they will need alot more voltage in order to blow them, and that is not good. In turn your amp could fry even before the fuses blow. Take my advice and put those 30 amp fuses back in. Do you by any chance have access to another amp (test amp) to put in its place and try that one out? You might have something wrong with your amp. I have never seen an amp fuse blow unless their is something wrong with the amp. First off, you have the subs wired correctly or else your amp would heat up and go into protection. Your in line (power wire) fuse isnt blowing so therefore your amp is drawing more power through that fuse than what the fuse can handle. So I am telling you that there has to be something wrong with that amp.




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: May 29, 2007 at 1:22 PM

OH HEAVENS!!

By no means did I want you to replace the fuses on the amplifier.... you're asking for a fire!

Put those 2 30's back in the amplifier. I meant put a 60 infront of the amplifier.... you know, that fuse that should beinline within the first 18 inches coming off the battery posted_image

I'm gonna agree, I think the amp has something wrong with it. SOmethingarc welded, or some other razy madness, cause like audioman2007 says, doesn't make sense for it to blow an onboard fuse but not the one out in front, in the event that it's okay. So yeah, try to locate a test amp, see what happens.



-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 29, 2007 at 2:49 PM

I disagree with both of them...oh wait...no I don't...lol.  Never ever put a higher amperage fuse into the side of the amplifier.  Did you put a fuse in a fuse holder within 18 inches after the battery?  Its a very good idea...I promise.

The test you did at the power and ground inputs will tell you the voltage being brought into the amplifier, but that reading alone won't help me determine the power your amplifier is producing.  Switch your multimeter to AC and test the speaker ouputs that your speakers are hooked up to with the speakers unhooked.  I need you to do this test while playing a sine wave.  I'm sure jazzcustom131 can help you find one of those.  Tell him the lowest frequency you think you hit.  Use that to test your speaker output voltage.



-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 29, 2007 at 9:30 PM
Come on man...please.  I need some numbers to crunch.  I'm bored...lol.

-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: audioman2007
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 3:01 PM
I think the chip in the amp was soldered wrong. but wouldnt that mean the fuse would blow right away? This is just a weird situation and without actually looking at everything in person, I dont have any quality answers.




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 3:36 PM
I' brought the multi meter back to work so im gonna have to bring it home tomorrow night. and yeah i replaced the 60a fuse and put the two 30s back in. i've got a 150 amp fuse within 18 inches of the battery not a 60. il try putting the 60 there instead?




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 3:39 PM
And no i dont have a test amp... the only other amp i have is for my rear speakers and its only a 350 watt and can only handle 4 ohm loads or more.




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 3:58 PM
Well after putting the two 30A fuses back in i trued turning it up just to see if it would still blow. and nope it didn't even think about it... i looked and it was saying 11.6 volts and 75A current (the amp has a screen that says it all) and it was on 33/35 volume at subwoofer output on 0 it played AWSOME then the amp cut out and i looked back and it was flashing and it was flashing the temp of the amp it said 82C and 200F now i dont know a lot about amps but DAMN thats hot....

-------------




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 4:25 PM

https://pix.crutchfield.com/kb/subs%5C2ch_amp_2_dvc4.JPG  here is how i have the subs wired. EXACTALLY like that, i didn't use the jumpers that came with them i used 10 gauge speaker wire. Now that i was reading up a bit i've got them wired to 4ohm (two 2ohm loads in series)

Now even witht he two 30 amp fuses in there and the subs on full blast the temperature goes up by 2degrees C every 2-4 seconds. I was talking to a guy at the local shop and he was saying that it sounds like a problem in the amp itsself because im blowing just 1 fuse and not both of them.





Posted By: audioman2007
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 4:59 PM
Is that a mono block amp?




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:08 PM
I agree with the guy at the shop.  That is sort of strange that the amp is only blowing one of the two fuses.  Of course, I don't know that much about the inner workings of an amp, just how to tweak one.  If you find the opportunity to buy a new amp, take it.  Just try and steer clear of Kenwood.  I don't have enough experience with them to talk bad about them, but I haven't heard anything good from the local dealer.

-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:08 PM

I'm surprised Haemyphyst didn't beat me to this.

you can leave that fuse at the battery as is. Bringing it down to a 60 isn't going to do anything for you.

I agree, your amp seems to have an issue.



-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:10 PM
I'm guessing that you are using a two channel amp.  I apologize.  I didn't realize.  That being the case, you cannot obtain a 1 ohm load.  I thought jazzcustom131 said it was a monoblock though?

-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:19 PM
turn the gain up on that amplifier until it reads 11.54 volts and do not wire it for a 1 ohm load.  jazzcustom131 fed me false information.  I was under the impression that that paticular amplifier was 1 ohm stable, but not according to the documentation I just looked over.  You might find that you would prefer the output of just one of those woofers in just the right enclosure rather than both of them at 4 ohms.  Compare just one at two ohms set with the 11.54 volt output voltage I told you to set it at with two of them at the same voltage at 4 ohms. 

-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:20 PM

Oh, by the way, that may help solve your fuse blowing issue, but then again, it may not.



-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:23 PM

Okay, I take back what I said about it not being 1 ohm stable.  I looked at a more detailed piece of documentation.  Just because it doesn't state it, doesn't mean it can't handle it...lol.  Go ahead and wire for 1 ohm and set the output voltage to 11.54 volts at 30 Hz.



-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:28 PM
yeah its 1 ohm stable. This may be a dumb question but how do i set the output voltage




Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:31 PM

wormy did you look at the link that I posted a couple of pages ago....

just you wait till I get home, i'm gonna make you 1 ohm stable if you don't start reading whole posts. posted_image

I'm starting to go on the vote that he should just go get a new amplifier... or if nothing else send this one off for repairs. And I mean to the manufacturer, not the pawn shop repair guy. I tend to be an angry judgemental person when it comes to amps going crazy on me. I usually cause them destruction and find a new amp from a new company...

but then again, they have told me i'm an angry unstable young man.... I think I just know the fastest solutions.



-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:34 PM
Lol, yeah its going in to the local shop tomorrow at lunch. and its already posted for sale =P buying a Hifonics 2500




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:51 PM

Wow...lol.  Okay...

I told you how to test the output voltage in two other posts in this thread, but I put it down one more time just because I'm bored...lol.

Switch the multimeter to AC voltage.  Unplug the speakers.  Turn on the radio and let it play a 30 Hz sine wave.  While the sine wave is playing, test the speaker outputs.  Turn up or down the amplifier gain until the multimeter reads 11.54 volts.  Actually, that voltage is for two speakers at 4 ohms.  That voltage seeing that impedance would deliver approximately 533 watts which should be an unclipped signal.  If you want the voltage for two speakers at 1 ohm that would achieve 1000 watts, then set the amplifier output voltage to 31.62 volts.

If you don't know what a sine wave is, then just let me know and I will explain and I'm sure jazzcustom131 would be more than happy to hunt you one down.  It doesn't have to be 30 Hz.  If you plan on playing lower notes, then just let me know.

The reason I'm telling you to use a sine wave as low as 30 Hz is because that will be the frequency that asks for the most power.  You don't want to set the amplifier using a 50 Hz sine wave because if you are delivering 1000 watts at 50 Hz then 30 Hz will want more than 1000 watts which might cause the amplifier to clip.

Stick with that 150 amp fuse in front of the amplifier.  I know its kind of high, but its only there to protect your vehicle.  It should blow before the wire melts...at least I would hope.

Oh, and look into upgrading your big 3.



-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: wormy
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 5:55 PM
If you need help setting the other amplifiers, output gain then just get word to me and I will be more than happy to help.  If you can't reach me here then send me a message at www.myspace.com/theinstallbay with the name of the thread that you started for the Hifonics and I will do my best to help you out. 

-------------
...typically, I just run whatever I randomly pick up off the floor.
1995 Ford Ranger Supercab
MECA member
Team CSS




Posted By: stitch176917
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 6:31 PM

ok, Yeah i know what a sine wave is i've got a handfull of test tone cd's but the lowest i've got is 33Hz, il do what you told me and il let ya know how things go,  I'l try it after the shops done with it though. just incase it is a problem with the amp. I do have the big 3 already done,

Even after the amp is fixed i'l be looking into getting a new amp. after all that it kinda makes me wanna change to get a fresh start.

Thanks everyone for helping.





Posted By: jazzcustom131
Date Posted: May 30, 2007 at 6:51 PM
if you're interested in own 20- 33Hz, zip me your email address. Or heck, i'll just send you 20-80... simpler that away

-------------
Greed is for amateurs.

Disorder,chaos,anarchy now THAT is fun!!





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