signal equalizer hunt
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=94524
Printed Date: May 22, 2024 at 5:41 PM
Topic: signal equalizer hunt
Posted By: loosingmymind
Subject: signal equalizer hunt
Date Posted: June 04, 2007 at 10:41 PM
Looking for a 1/2 din parametric. Need some good sugestions in the moderately affordable range! Front/Rear/Sub control. Hopefully a 6v min out. 8 would be nice. Looking at the Directed 6500eq and the Clarion eqs746. Thanks. ------------- David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
Replies:
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: June 05, 2007 at 12:47 AM
Does it have to be an in dash unit? Also, why do you need it to have high voltage outputs? IMO high voltage outputs are just a marketing gimick. My pre-amp setup has 1 volt outputs (measured with an Oscilloscope) and I have NO noise and great sound. Although it's not an in dash unit, I've heard of people having good results with this one: https://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=6788&Category=Audio_Processors The only thing is that you have to find a way to change the power supply to 12 volts. IIRC a guy over at the Car Sound forum going by RobM has done the conversion for people. I also know that Dave (Heamphyst) uses an Altomobile unit that looks really nice. However I haven't been able to find a dealer for them, or the price of the unit. Here's a link: https://www.altomobile.com/main/catalogue_dig_xover.html You should also check out Audio Controls offerings.
Posted By: speakermakers
Date Posted: June 05, 2007 at 12:49 AM
Audiocontrol makes the best EQs in the car audio industry in my opinion. They do not make a half din parametric though. Audiocontrol is a big believer in their constant Q equalizers as a solution to economical (a couple of hundred dollars vs. a few hundred dollars) and practical equalization in the car environment. And I agree. Constant Q graphic EQs have many advantages over non constant Q graphic counterparts and keep the end user from making some mistakes that are nearly unavoidable with out the assistance of an FFT analyzer and a wealth of experience. All of the Audiocontrol Constant Q EQs are capable of more than the 5 and 8 volt outputs that you desire. You will need to feed them a decent signal voltage to get that kind of performance out of them though. All of there EQs contain line drivers. Line drivers are signal multipliers. If you start out with a small input signal and then multiply that you will still end up with a relatively small signal voltage. You might already know that but I thought it was worth mentioning. If you are really after a no compromise Parametric EQ then you should look at there Digital line. It simply dose not get better than this! If your primary goal is to get a half din unit to take up a half din space then this type of equipment is not for you. There might very well be a nice piece of equipment out there that fits into a half din, but I am not aware of it. In my opinion an EQ must enhance dynamic range, frequency response, line voltage, and lower the noise floor. If it fails on any of these points it is not worthy of your money or your time.
https://resources.myeporia.com/company_38/techpaper106.pdf
As a reference please check out this tech paper by Richard Chinn on Constant Q equalizers. Even if you end up with something ells you will have a new perspective on the subject that will serve you well.
Posted By: speakermakers
Date Posted: June 05, 2007 at 1:12 AM
I wont go as far as saying that you can not get good performance out of one volt. And I really try not to pick on other peoples opinions but, real line voltage is anything but a marketing gimmick. In fact I view line voltage as the most overlooked aspect of car audio design. The big companies like Pioneer and Alpine have attempted to exploit line voltage. And they did not even come close to living up to their promises. So you are absolutely right in that respect.
I have had the good fortune of working with Eclipse (the one company that delivers true tested unclipped voltage) and Audio control and Zapco. I can tell you from much experience that there is no comparison. A system that runs a high voltage unclipped signal to an amplifier that can take advantage of that signal produces a much more dynamic and consequently louder and clearer end result. Its hard to describe this effect. Once you here it though you immediately know what you have been missing. All of my customers agree. That’s how I sell them. I let them here what they never knew existed!
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: June 05, 2007 at 1:56 AM
And the differences you hear aren't from the voltage levels. We sell Eclipse at work and I use that same demo against Pioneer and JVC decks. But it's true of Eclipse's cheaper, low voltage head units as well. Technically the reason for higher voltage outputs is to reduce the effects of induced noise in the system. Any noise introduced will be that much lower than the higher signal voltage. However if you start with a properly installed system then there is no noise to worry about. And what you are left with is people (including MANY installers) not understanding how the differing output voltages effect the gain settings on the amplifiers, and therefore many amplifiers set up wrong. When I headed up the warranty department at Adire Audio I saw many toasted voice coils for that very reason. People would say that their gain was only 3/4 of the way up, but didn't know that it should have been turned all the way down with their 4 volt pre-out levels. So their 1400 watt amplifier would burn up our 1600 watt subwoofer from the actual 2k+ watts going to it.
Posted By: speakermakers
Date Posted: June 05, 2007 at 3:05 AM
A lowered noise floor is only one of several performance gains that you get from higher voltage. You are missing out on something big here. If you get the chance talk to an engineer like Andy Wehmeyer of Harmon Consumer Group. Andy is involved in MERA in a big way and if you are in the industry you should have access to this organization and all of its resources. Check it out. I used to think like you. Then I found out different and I insist on high voltage signal in every system that I do now. I see the proof every day. I promise to customers that they will have increased output, clarity, and new dynamics that they never knew about. I put my reputation on the line, and I always come out as the hero because it works. If your amps are up to the task high voltage signal is simply sounds better. By the way all of the eclipse head units have superior voltage out and digital to analogue converters compared to Pioneer and JVC with the exception of their lowest end unit that is actually made by JVC. The biggest blunder that Eclipse has ever made. The guy at that company that made that decision needs to be fired and thrown off of the nearest bridge. You have a point with the gain settings on an amp. You have to set your gains correctly no matter what voltage you are at. Although even though a higher line voltage makes the most use of an amps power capabilities you will not get 2 kilowatts from a 1.4 kilowatt amp due to line voltage alone. By the way what type of amps are you guys selling that can put out 2K?
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: June 05, 2007 at 10:39 AM
I know who Andy Wehmeyer is, and used to work for a couple brilliant audio engineers. I did some searching and found this that should help explain in detail the differences: https://www.bcae1.com/preoutv.htm I also did a quick search over at the Car Sound forum, where Andy usually hangs out, and didn't find any comments from him specifically on the topic. However everyone that did comment seemed to agree with me. The amp commonly used on out Brahma subs was the JBL BD1200.1 and was tested to produce 1400 watts rms in magazine reviews. However the amplifier was designed for lower signal voltage head units and would start to clip the signal on 4 volt head units if you turned the gain up any. A fully clipped signal can produce up to double the RMS power output, so that amplifier has the capability of producing 2800 watts of power. Considering most the people I talked to with these amps had 4 volt head units with the gain 3/4 of the way up and a charred voice coil, I used 2 kilowatts as an estimate.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: June 05, 2007 at 11:19 AM
pwn3d
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: loosingmymind
Date Posted: June 05, 2007 at 11:19 PM
Wow. Thanks. Ok. A lot of info. So what about the EQ? Dave ------------- David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
Posted By: Steven Kephart
Date Posted: June 06, 2007 at 2:28 AM
I posted a few options on my first response. Did you check them out?
Posted By: loosingmymind
Date Posted: June 06, 2007 at 3:22 AM
Yes. Thank you Stephen. I am looking into Alto's product! The 110 to 12v conversion is more than I want to get into. Thank you so much for the advice. I am also checking out the stuff from Directed and from Audio Control. Thanks, David ------------- David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: June 06, 2007 at 11:39 AM
The link that Steven gave you to the alto product IS a 12V product. There is no 110V-12V conversion necessary.
I actually use the UCSPro, linked to on that same page.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: tubbs04
Date Posted: June 06, 2007 at 7:22 PM
Hey D. Dave F..... just go find you an eclipse 8443 unit like mine... jk.... your car sounds great to my ears...
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...don't crush the weasel...
Posted By: loosingmymind
Date Posted: June 07, 2007 at 5:10 PM
Haemphyst, I thnk i'll try it out. Let you know how it goes. Dave ------------- David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
Posted By: loosingmymind
Date Posted: June 07, 2007 at 5:12 PM
Thanks Tubbs, your the true critic. Thanks bro!
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David Fancher
USACi World Finals 2006
4th Place SQ PRO 601+
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