custom 3 way design
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Audio
Forum Discription: Car Stereos, Amplifiers, Crossovers, Processors, Speakers, Subwoofers, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=96838
Printed Date: April 29, 2024 at 2:58 AM
Topic: custom 3 way design
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Subject: custom 3 way design
Date Posted: September 02, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Im tired of trying to get pre built component systems to properly blend with any subwoofer built these days so im looking for advise here.
My plans: I have a 2003 Chevrolet Avalanche with a 15" TC-3000 that will be receiving 1500WRMS and want to cross it over to accept frequencies between 25hz-70hz, and now for the front stage I have space available to fit an 8" woofer in the front doors in a fiberglass pod, then will be running a 4" or 5" component set son axis in the A-pillars.
Im looking for recommendations on that elusive 8" woofer that can tackle 70hz up till the components kick in, which I still have not decided on a frequency cutoff yet. The woofer must not be too power hungry, and must be able to work in a small box since it will only been in a door pod which if im lucky will be 1/4-1/2 cu.ft sealed, unless there is a woofer out there that would work wonders in an open baffle??
Any recommendations on that 8" woofer??
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Replies:
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 02, 2007 at 10:58 AM
Does it have to be 8"? How about 7"? ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 02, 2007 at 9:19 PM
Humm, I didn't think those were still available. Do you think the extremis will be able to handle the task im trying to achieve? Bass to midbass transition? Since my sub bass is really taken care of and the component system can take it from mid-high.
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 02, 2007 at 9:59 PM
Absolutely. The Extremis functions pretty well as a SUB if you put it in the right enclosure. It excels between 70Hz and 600Hz. One problem using it ins a car is the mounting depth is almost 4". I have used Scan Speak 7" woofers with outstanding results as well. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: September 02, 2007 at 11:19 PM
Speaking from experience, YES, they'll do that well... I have them in my doors, powered by an Alpine PDX4.150 bridged to the pair, for 300W each, crossed at 65Hz, to my sub @ 48dB/octave, and the blend is SEAMLESS... The voice blend to the Vifa 4" mid is fantastic as well, and I'm doing that up at 220Hz, again, @ 48dB. You won't have to get rediculous like I did with your slopes, but it CERTAINLY can't hurt at all! All I'm saying is - "yeah, they'll do it!"
One of the best mid-woofers I have ever heard in my life. Before I put the subs in, I was actually running them as low as 45Hz, IN THE DOORS! You won't be sorry with them!
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 9:12 AM
What size of enclosure can I run them in? I have heard great things from them in the past when Adire was the talk of the forums. What frequency should I cut the extremis off and let the component set start at? Im looking at either a 4" or 5.25" component set.
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 10:45 AM
Alpine Guy wrote:
What size of enclosure can I run them in? I have heard great things from them in the past when Adire was the talk of the forums. What frequency should I cut the extremis off and let the component set start at? Im looking at either a 4" or 5.25" component set.
They can work without enclosures per se, but they work best between .5 and 1 cuft. You can operate them as high as you like (I built a set of 2-way home speakers using Extremis crossed at 2800Hz - and those enclosures are ported at 32Hz with the Extremis doing all the low end work very nicely.) The low end extension of your components is what you need to worry about. Set the Xover point to whatever woofer you end up with based on what the component woofers do well. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 2:02 PM
I just measured everything out and looks like it will have to be open air, I would get about 0.1 cu.ft if I sealed the woofer. Now, am I going to have to make my own crossover for this setup?
I came up with a crossover and drew it in PSpice and will try to attach it, will it work?
ZC7_crossover.jpg------------- 2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 2:11 PM
Uh, no, that won't work. Check this page for some basics, and then this one. I suggest as a minimum you include a HP section for your components at the same frequency knee as the LP you use for your new woofer. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 5:07 PM
How about this one? I will be using the built in crossover in the amp to take care of the HP filter around 65Hz since it's adjustable, plan to do a 12db/octave at 500HZ LP so the woofer will see between 65Hz and 500Hz , then a HP 12/octave at 500Hz so the component crossovers will only see the majority above 500Hz. Thats what im trying to accomplish.
5C9_crossover.jpg------------- 2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 6:14 PM
That's better, but I wouldn't run a crossover into a crossover... Passive components in series will throw the values all off, causing odd crossover slopes and frequencies.
I'd just build a three-way, I think you'd be far better off.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 6:48 PM
Well I plan on running the new Alpine Type-X Reference components and don't really want to screw up the sound of the components too much, so you think it's wise for a first time x-over builder to scrap the alpine X-overs and completely make my own?
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 7:19 PM
If not going active, and I mean completely active, I'd avoid running two passive crossovers in series, whatever it took.
I'd build a nice 18dB 3-way, apparently you already have the software to do it.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: jfinks
Date Posted: September 03, 2007 at 7:38 PM
I know this is a descusion of the power user guys but I have always liked the Dyn 6 1/2's or 8's for that application. I personally prefer 4 of the smaller to two of the 8". They work well without a box or as I have done in the past built a partial encloser with a covered opening. Just my humble opinion. I have managed to fit their 10" in the place of the 6 1/2's in my doors because the are so small. But then again you have to like the Dyn's in the first place. The 10's didn't work out so well so I have gone to the JL 12" w6's. The Dyn's 6 1/2's are my favorites...
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 04, 2007 at 5:35 AM
I wonder.. If I get a Eclipse CD7100, which I am. It said on the website is is 3-way capable. Does that mean I can get the head unit to do all the work, all i'll need is a 4 channel amp?
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: September 04, 2007 at 8:16 AM
Well, if you get a deck that is 3-way capable, how will you address the sub? You are actually going with a 4-way system, not a 3-way...
Oh, wait, I just re-read your post... Yes, three-way active, with the top (The Alpines) being split further by a passive... Yes, you can do that, if the 7100 allows a granular enough 3-way tuning. What I mean by that is "will you be able to get the mid-band to go narrow enough, i.e 60Hz to 300Hz or so". Then you can have 60Hz and down for the subwoofer, 60Hz to 300Hz for the bass, and 300Hz and up for the Alpines. This way, you will also be able to keep the passive crossovers for the Alpines.
Jack, I, too, LOVE the Dynes. Sadly, if you don't already have Dynes in-hand, you won't be able to get them, as Dynaudio no longer sells to the do-it-yourselfer. They are now an OEM company only. (Unless this has changed, that's the last I heard... DYohn, input?) About two years ago, they made this VERY BAD decision. I'd take your idea in a second, with the exception of using 2 smaller vice 1 larger. In the car, where you are SO near-field, one single point of output for a given band of frequencies (IMO) is better than two. If trying to steer the image, then two can be helpful, but otherwise, I'd go with one.
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It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 04, 2007 at 10:54 AM
re: crossovers in series. I do not believe this is what I suggested. Adding a passive HP to the input of a 2-way crossover will not affect the original crossover points, it will only limit the low frequency extension of the woofer. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: jfinks
Date Posted: September 04, 2007 at 8:32 PM
haemphyst wrote:
Jack, I, too, LOVE the Dynes. Sadly, if you don't already have Dynes in-hand, you won't be able to get them, as Dynaudio no longer sells to the do-it-yourselfer. They are now an OEM company only. (Unless this has changed, that's the last I heard... DYohn, input?) About two years ago, they made this VERY BAD decision.
It just so happens that SLO has a dealer for the car audio dyns. He is where I just got the the single mid and tweet for my center channel...unless you are using the Term "OEM" as they sell to retailers only. They are a bitch to find other wise but worth it to me.  . Yeah One point would be better typically but as you have guessed I will be doing a little steering (maybe) in a vertical stack. Most don't have the room but I do....
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 04, 2007 at 8:52 PM
Ok, I really appreciate everyones help so far, im going to take some time and study and learn this stuff properly, im going to look into the options the head unit offers for me then go from there. I have lots of books I can use to properly understand the effects of inductance and capacitance used in crossover networks, im now in my 3rd semester of a Electrical Technologist diploma so we will be learning this stuff this semester.
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 17, 2007 at 10:07 PM
Well, the Adire Extremis is no longer available, as well as the Mpyre midwoofers. Any other suggestions for a midwoofer in the 7" range?
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 17, 2007 at 10:20 PM
Depending on what you want to spend, here are some choices. I've used the Scan Speak, Vifa, Seas, HiVi (Swan) and Morel drivers, all are good performers. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 18, 2007 at 9:58 PM
Upon my search I ran across this page that is really helping me make my decision, you may want to save this one yourself DYohn.
https://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: DYohn
Date Posted: September 19, 2007 at 12:14 AM
John K's reviews are usually technically quite good. ------------- Support the12volt.com
Posted By: tcss
Date Posted: September 19, 2007 at 12:41 AM
JL has just come out with a ZR 8" driver. It's not on their websight yet but I will give you details tomorrow when I get to the shop.
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There is no such thing as free installation!
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: September 19, 2007 at 4:44 AM
tcss] wrote:
JL has just come out with a ZR 8" driver. It's not on their websight yet but I will give you details tomorrow when I get to the shop.
That would be great! I hope it will come with a grill. ------------- 2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: October 04, 2007 at 6:54 PM
WOO HOO, I just located and bought some of the very very few and far between Adire Extremis6.4 mid woofers, if anyone is interested before this woofer disapears forever they can be found at https://www.creativesound.ca/
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 04, 2007 at 8:09 PM
Also, check with Kyle at Acoustic Visions.
Last I checked, he still had the 4 ohm versions in stock, at $99.00 each, shipped. ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
Posted By: Alpine Guy
Date Posted: October 04, 2007 at 10:37 PM
Acoustic Visions is out of stock of the Adire Extremis and Mpyre Audio stuff, but they haven't updated the website in ages.
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2003 Chevy Avalanche,Eclipse CD7000,Morel Elate 5,Adire Extremis,Alpine PDX-4.150, 15" TC-3000, 2 Alpine PDX-1.1000, 470Amp HO Alt.
Posted By: haemphyst
Date Posted: October 04, 2007 at 11:39 PM
Alpine Guy wrote:
Acoustic Visions is out of stock of the Adire Extremis and Mpyre Audio stuff, but they haven't updated the website in ages.
Bummer... ------------- It all reminds me of something that Molière once said to Guy de Maupassant at a café in Vienna: "That's nice. You should write it down."
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