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must start with key before remote

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=101684
Printed Date: May 01, 2024 at 4:23 PM


Topic: must start with key before remote

Posted By: bluelu00
Subject: must start with key before remote
Date Posted: January 29, 2008 at 7:49 AM

I installed a remote start and car alarm in a 1999 Grand Am. It works fine, with one exception. In the morning, if I try to use the remote start it will start up and then kill after about 10 seconds. It does this the four times and then quits. If I go out and start the car with the key and then push the remote start button it starts up and stays running like it is supposed to. Having to go outside kind of defeats the purpose of having a remote start...so I am hoping someone has a suggestion...

Thanks!



Replies:

Posted By: GregK
Date Posted: January 29, 2008 at 8:06 AM
Which bypass module did you use and is it programmed correctly?

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GDK Electronics
Home theatre & mobile electronics installations
Winnipeg, MB




Posted By: brcidd
Date Posted: January 29, 2008 at 8:15 AM
Your method of bypassing the Passlock II is inop- how did you do it? - there are several ways- I prefer the GMATA II - "dial-in" method- your car acts as if you did not use a bypass---You can verify this- by looking at your dash when remote started- does the "theft" light come on and flash??  If you did use a bypass- it isn't working......

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Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: January 29, 2008 at 8:30 AM
I eliminated the security system by cutting the yellow wire behind the radio. Before I cut the wire, the car would start and shut off right away...now it only does it the first time I use it in the morning and before it shuts off now it stays running for longer than it did before cutting the wire. It works just fine throughout the day...just not right away in the morning.




Posted By: brcidd
Date Posted: January 29, 2008 at 9:26 AM

I don't think you can "elimnate" the security system like that-- I think when you do that- it actually runs in the "tamper" mode- and the next time you lose battery power- (unhook your battery) that it will not start with that wire cut- from what I have read-- I never have tried that method- but have always used the resistive bypass method for Passlock II -- for a $7 module- why try anything else?

Is your theft light on when driving and starting with the key?



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Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.




Posted By: brhaugen
Date Posted: January 29, 2008 at 11:16 AM
brcidd is correct, cutting the wire doesn't eliminate the security system. I am surprised your car starts at all.
I would restore the yellow wire and buy a bypass kit.
-OR-
Do the tried and true method of using 2 relays and a resistor.




Posted By: brcidd
Date Posted: January 29, 2008 at 12:13 PM

Here is what the service manual for your car says.......

Vehicle Theft Deterrent (VTD) Description

Important

Due to component variability, the vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) system must have the learn procedure performed regardless, if the vehicle starts on the first ignition cycle after a VTD repair.

All codes in the theft deterrent module must be cleared for a relearn.

The vehicle theft deterrent system is designed in order to prevent vehicle theft by disabling the fuel injectors unless the lock cylinder is correctly engaged by a mechanical key. The theft deterrent system uses the following 4 components for theft prevention:

  • The lock cylinder
  • The ignition switch
  • The body control module (BCM)
  • The powertrain control module (PCM)

When starting the engine, the PCM searches for a password from the BCM through the Class 2 serial data circuit. If the password is not recognized or not present, the PCM will disable the engine. Two modes of tamper detection are provided:

  1. No password received The engine will start and stall quickly. SECURITY telltale will flash on the instrument panel cluster (IPC) and then stay ON steady.
  2. Incorrect or disable password received (More than 3 invalid passwords are received) The engine is disabled for at least 10 minutes and the SECURITY telltale will illuminate solid on the IPC during the 10 minutes.

After the vehicle has passed theft detection, the PCM will continue normal operation.

Ignition Switch

The mechanical key and lock cylinder is located in the instrument panel assembly. The electrical switching portion of the assembly is separate from the key and lock cylinder. Both of the components are synchronized and work in conjunction through the action of the actuator rod assembly.

Passlock™ Lock Cylinder

The Passlock™ lock cylinder is a locking cylinder that turns a rotating magnet past a stationary hall effect sensor. This action creates the Passlock™ cylinder data. The Passlock™ cylinder data is sent to the Body Control Module (BCM). The Passlock™ lock cylinder is interfaced with the BCM via a 3-wire connection:

  • Power
  • Ground
  • Data
Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

The Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is located on the lower left side of the instrument panel.

The PCM communicates with the Body Control Module (BCM) via serial data over the class 2 serial data bus, CKT 1807. When the BCM determines a passed theft condition, the BCM sends a coded password to the PCM. When the PCM receives the correct password, the PCM enables the fuel injection system, allowing the vehicle to operate correctly. The PCM may allow the car to start and quickly stall during a failed theft condition.

The following conditions may cause the PCM to enter a tamper mode:

  • A bad timing cycle
  • An incorrect password

If the BCM does not receive a password within a preset time window, the BCM will enter a short tamper mode. During this mode, the PCM will not allow the car to operate for 4 seconds.

If the password is incorrect, the PCM will enter the long tamper mode. In the long tamper mode, the following actions will occur:

  • The THEFT SYSTEM indicator will flash.
  • The fuel injectors will be shut off for approximately 10 minutes.

Although the vehicle may start, the engine will quickly stall due to a fuel cut-off.

In the event of an open in the serial data communication between the BCM and the PCM, the following actions occur:

  • The PCM will become fail-enabled if the car has already passed theft for that ignition cycle (i.e. the engine is running).
  • The PCM may set the diagnostic trouble codes (DTC).
  • The THEFT SYSTEM indicator will light continuously.
  • The PCM will become fail-enabled for future ignition cycles.

If a failure occurs in serial data before the ignition cycle, while the PCM is not fail-enabled, the PCM will never receive a valid password in order to enable the continued use of the fuel injectors



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Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: January 30, 2008 at 6:55 AM
According to GM, as long as the car is running when you cut the security wire it does eliminate the security system. If you have the car running when you cut the wire, the car thinks that something happened to it during operation...so it will still allow the car to start. My car starts just fine.

I don't think you guys are understanding the problem here. My remote start works all of the time...as long as it is not really cold out. For instance...2 days ago it was in the 30's around here...my remote start worked great. Yesterday, it was 14 below...the remote starter would start the car and shut it off after about 10 seconds, and it would re-try four more times. The remote starter itself works when it is cold out...it just wont stay running.

Please don't respond to this post with any more comments about my security system, it is fine. The battery has been disconnected and it still starts, it starts with the key....it is not my security system that is causing this. I understand that many of you think a bypass is a better way...but that is not how I did it...and that is not the problem.

I would appreciate any other suggestions.




Posted By: Twelvoltz
Date Posted: January 30, 2008 at 6:58 AM
How does the RS system know the vehicle is running? Did you hook it up as voltage sensing or tachometer monitoring?



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Installer, IT support, and FFL. I need less hobbies.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: January 30, 2008 at 7:22 AM
I hooked it up as voltage sensing, but I was considering hooking it up as tach...do you think that would help?




Posted By: Twelvoltz
Date Posted: January 30, 2008 at 7:41 AM
I would give it a try. Tachometer monitoring is the most reliable way to let the RS know the vehicle is running. Give it a shot and get back to us.

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Installer, IT support, and FFL. I need less hobbies.




Posted By: brcidd
Date Posted: January 30, 2008 at 8:18 AM

I agree- that is a classic remote start not running symptom when cold-- go with tach sensing

Now you got me interested-- does the theft light never come on?



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Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: January 30, 2008 at 11:26 AM
The security light on the dash has been on since I cut the wire. The car itself is not acting up, there is just always going to be a light lit up on the dash. I will try the tach wire tonight, and let you guys know. Thanks for all of your help!




Posted By: brcidd
Date Posted: January 30, 2008 at 12:04 PM
That's is what I thought would happen-- this would be a "tough sell" if it is not your own vehicle-- for sure a comeback even if it does work alright...just not professional...and I would not do it......Thanks for your honest input......

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Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: January 30, 2008 at 3:12 PM
Well that's the thing...it is my vehicle and I dont really care.  I can definetly see what you are saying;  I could see other people not liking it, but they can pay the 30 for the bypass module...I just didnt think it was necessary if I could get around it.  I havent tried hooking up the tach sensor yet, but I am still planning on doing it tonight.  I will let you know either way.  Thanks again!




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: January 31, 2008 at 7:04 AM
I tried hooking up the tach wire with no luck. I couldn't find the wire. I tried all of the violet/white wires and white wires coming through the firewall. I also tried the white and violet/white wires at the ignition control and no luck. I tested these wires with a volt meter in both AC and DC. The most fluctuation I got was about .9 volts. I also tried running without the tach wire hooked to anything and the remote start would work, then later it wouldn't. I tried placing the tach wire to the battery positive after the RS started the car, and that would only work sometimes. I don't know where to go from here. Thanks for all the help so far. Hope you guys have better ideas than I do.




Posted By: wrenches
Date Posted: January 31, 2008 at 10:01 AM
For a 1999 Grand Am the tach will be violet/white at the coil pack.

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Think. It's not illegal yet.




Posted By: adamsaudio
Date Posted: February 02, 2008 at 12:30 AM

Where did you ground the r/s unit at?





Posted By: customak47
Date Posted: February 02, 2008 at 10:21 AM
sounds like to me you are using a dei remote starter and the voltage sense needs to be set to low voltage sense or shut the engine checking off.

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My rifle is my friend...




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: February 02, 2008 at 1:05 PM
adamsaudio wrote:

Where did you ground the r/s unit at?




I grounded the RS using one of the bolts on the metal frame that holds the steering column together.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: February 02, 2008 at 1:09 PM
customak47 wrote:

sounds like to me you are using a dei remote starter and the voltage sense needs to be set to low voltage sense or shut the engine checking off.


I am using a wintec lea-825. Even when the tach wire is hooked up, there is no programming for it.




Posted By: corrysmtx
Date Posted: February 02, 2008 at 1:57 PM
can you see the injectors? if you can their should be two wires coming off each one. one wire will be common on each one the other wire will be differnt on each one. Any of the other color wires will work for a tach signal.

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1 12" mtx 9500 4ohm dvc 1 8100d and 1 1501d almost loud enough to cover the sounds of my car dying.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: February 02, 2008 at 2:33 PM
I tried that also, I got like 14.something volts when the ignition came on, then it goes to 0, then back to 14.something when it starts. I thought that would work, but it still didn't accept it. The start was unsuccessful.




Posted By: jaybizz
Date Posted: February 02, 2008 at 3:06 PM
if u don't want to hook up tach than try to go into the program menu and change the setting <5v or >5v before start. if that doesn't work than u gotta hook up tach

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alarm king




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: February 03, 2008 at 8:42 PM
The remote start does not have the option for tach or tachless mode, it automatically senses voltage noise or tach signal.




Posted By: Twelvoltz
Date Posted: February 04, 2008 at 6:45 AM
To test for the proper tachometer reference you need to set your meter to AC voltage. Hook the black lead of your meter to ground and probe the wire you think is the tachometer wire with the red. If it is the proper wire you will see a noticeable fluctuation of voltage directly related to engine rpm. In the 99 Grand Am you can grab the tachometer wire at the ECM under the driver's dash to the left of the column, it will be either white or PURPLE / white. Going under the hood for the tachometer the wire will be at the ignition coil.

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Installer, IT support, and FFL. I need less hobbies.




Posted By: pbrian37
Date Posted: February 06, 2008 at 1:47 PM
i really don't understand this forum. you ask for help and you decline to listen. these people are giving you good advice. First, use some sort of bypass kit on your car. They are correct. It cannot be removed. After you have done so, let everyone know what method you used if the problem persists.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: February 06, 2008 at 7:41 PM
pbrian37 wrote:

i really don't understand this forum. you ask for help and you decline to listen. these people are giving you good advice. First, use some sort of bypass kit on your car. They are correct. It cannot be removed. After you have done so, let everyone know what method you used if the problem persists.


If it cannot be done, why does it work when it is warm out? I am not trying to decline any advice, but I have already eliminated the factory security on my car and the RS will work under certain conditions. It works perfectly when started normally, and works perfectly after I have driven my car at some point in the day. Just not when it has sat for a long period of time in very cold weather. Unless this is some feature of the factory security that I am unaware of, I am convinced that it is not the fault of the factory security. If it never worked, I would believe it was the security problem, and if it didn't behave differently now than it did when the factory security was enabled I would believe it was the security problem.




Posted By: corrysmtx
Date Posted: February 07, 2008 at 2:46 PM
it really sounds like a passkey issue tho. You said you didnt have to use any sort of a bypass you just cut the security wire?

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1 12" mtx 9500 4ohm dvc 1 8100d and 1 1501d almost loud enough to cover the sounds of my car dying.




Posted By: brcidd
Date Posted: February 08, 2008 at 9:34 PM
I had a Cobalt earlier this yr that would remote start one out of ten times and stay running- traced it back to improper security bypass-- I think you have the same issue- just that timing is everything- just because it works most of the time doesn't rule out the possibility it is not bypassed properly- That bypass box is only $7 off Ebay (GMATTii) and is a "dial-in type" to get the resistances correct.  I spent several hours on the Cobalt because I was convinced it was bypassed correctly since it did occasionally start....I have been doing r/s for 15 yrs and have never bypassed a GA by cutting the security wire-  The security light being on tells it all as far as I'm concerned....

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Brcidd - Engineer That Does Remote Starter Installs on the side.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: February 09, 2008 at 8:17 PM

Since everyone has been so insistant that it is a bypass issue...I tried it.  It did not work.  The only thing that was different with the bypass was the fact that my security light was off.  With the bypass the car still wouldnt start and stay running when cold, and after running at least once that day it would run fine.  It is not that my car is inconsistent  with the remote starting....in fact, it is very consistent.  The remote works when it is warm out or when the car has been run at least once earlier in the day.  It consistently starts and shuts off after 10-15 seconds when it is cold out or has not been run at all that day.

I appreciate all of your responses...however, I am now 100% convinced this is absolutely not a security issue.  It didnt make sense for it to be a security in the first place, and now I have confirmed it.  So again, I would appreciate any other advice for this remote starter...but it is not a security system or bypass problem. 

Additionally, I again realize that cutting the security wire is not the standard way of bypassing the system.  However, according to GM...the manufacturer of my car, it works and is a much cheaper option to a bypass (which I did not find for less than 40) if you dont care about your security light being on. So please, stop telling me that this is so terrible; I am respectfully disagreeing and asking you to stop posting comments to that effect.

I understand that many of you dont agree with how I originally bypassed my security system...so I did it your way, and it still does the same thing as before.  Now do you believe me? 

Any new suggestions are most definitely welcome, but please do not post the same tired suggestions.  I just want a functioning remote start, and continuing to post about my security system is not getting me there.

Thanks again.





Posted By: adamsaudio
Date Posted: February 09, 2008 at 9:11 PM
I have asked this before and it may have been over looked. Where did you ground the remote start? If you don ground it to the kick panel in the car you will have trouble with starting in the cold. The remote start uses the ground as a reference to tell if the car is started. If you have a weak ground or a dirty ground your car will start sometime and not other.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: February 09, 2008 at 9:29 PM
I did see your post before and I do think you have a very good point. That is going to be my next attempt. Thanks to "Twelvoltz" advice I finally found my tach wire. I have been testing in DC not AC. I am going to see if this has fixed the problem first, if not, I will be changing my ground connection.




Posted By: bluelu00
Date Posted: February 10, 2008 at 2:26 PM
I hooked the tach wire up last night. This morning it was 10 below outside...and my remote start worked without a problem. I think this problem is finally solved...thanks for all of the help.





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