starter grinding with remote start, 03 xterra
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=109712
Printed Date: May 05, 2024 at 3:20 PM
Topic: starter grinding with remote start, 03 xterra
Posted By: saleengt2001
Subject: starter grinding with remote start, 03 xterra
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 1:53 PM
i just installed my ebay special Boa remote starter on my 2003 Xterra. i have everything wired up and working but whenever i use the remote start the starter will hang and just keep grinding. you can put the key in and turn it to run and as soon as you tap the brake pedal to disengage the remote start the grinding stops and it idles as it should. is there something wrong with the remote start unit or do i need to check some wires?
also is the radio suppose to turn on with the remote start??
let me know if anyone has some ideas i can test out. i'm fairly good with electronics so i'm not scared to try some "costom" wiring to try and correct this problem
thanks
Ben
Replies:
Posted By: jrilla
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 2:25 PM
How did you connect to the two starter wires? They must both be connected and also remain isolated from each other.
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM
i used 2 relays and triggered them from the wire on the remote start unit.
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 2:45 PM
i'm pulling the power for the relays off the same constant 12V in the ign harness that the remote start uses
Posted By: jrilla
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 4:03 PM
When the vehicle is running by the ignition key, if you press start on the remote starter, will it take over after you pull out the key without grinding?
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 4:34 PM
if i crank it with the key, then press the remote start the grinding will begin as soon as the remote start kicks in.
Posted By: jrilla
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 4:46 PM
It sounds to me like your starter wire is getting a constant output from the remote starter like you have your Ignition output connected to your starter wire. I would Check my connections again.
Posted By: Mike M2
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 5:32 PM
On a lot of RS units, when the starter stays engaged it is because the unit is not seeing a tach wire. Basically, the unit doesn't know the car is yet running thus the starter stays on. This could be your problem. As for the radio, it depends if you connected the second accessory wire(RED / yellow) to the RS.....
-------------
Mike M2
Tech Manager
CS Dealer Services
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 8:44 PM
how much voltage should the tach signal be? i'm only seeing 6-7 volts
Posted By: Mike M2
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 9:31 PM
Tach is an alternating current and will vary in voltage. What do you have the tach connected to and did you program it?
-------------
Mike M2
Tech Manager
CS Dealer Services
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 9:39 PM
heres how i have it wired up
Purple - output to starter, used 2 relays to energize blk/yel and blk/grn wires in harness
Red - 12V, wht/red wire in harness
Orange - acc output, Red wire in harness
Pink - Ign circuit, Blk/Wht wire in harness
Red - 12V, same wht/red in harness
Tach - pnk/blu at Cruise control module (only seeing 6-7 volts when running and doesnt change much with RPM???)
on the second harness i only used the ground wire, brake wire which is working correctly, and the tach wire.
i did not use the following wires at all
park light
alarm disarm
remote activation input
hood pin shutdown
200ma status output
this is the info i'm going off of. it is from the Boa site. some wires are different colors than this site says. the Boa wires are at the IGN cly and the wire colors on here are taken from the first connector down from the IGN harness. the info is the same. i matched all the wires up and they are right on both sites.
12volts WHITE/ Red + Ignition Harness
Starter BLACK / YELLOW + Ignition Harness
Second Starter BLACK/ Green + Ignition Harness
Ignition BLACK/ White + Ignition Harness
Second Ignition
Third Ignition
Accessory Red + Ignition Harness
Tachometer Pink/Blue 6 Cyl At Cruise Control Module
Notes for this item : You need to send a Neg (-) " Start Pulse " on this Wire for the " Clutch Bypass".
Wait to start
Brake Wire BROWN / Red - At Cruise Control Module
Notes for this item : The cruise control module is located above the emergency brake pedal in the driver*s kick. There you can find the tach as well as the brake wire in the gray plug!
sorry for the long post. i'm trying to give as much info as possible!
thanks for the help
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Tach signals are NOT alternating current or voltage - they are pulsing DC signals. They never go negative, something an "alternating" current must do. The best way to verify a tach wire is to use a volt meter that reads frequency (quite a few "cheap" Craftsman meters will do it). Most cars tach signals will read around 11hz at idle and increase with RPM. It sounds like you have the starter relays hooked up wrong - most remote starts should time out after a few seconds (10 at most). If it cranks until you make it stop I would guess you are driving your relays with the wrong signal. ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Mike M2 wrote:
Tach is an alternating current and will vary in voltage. What do you have the tach connected to and did you program it?
the tach is hooked up at the cruise control module in the drivers kick panel. when the engine is running it will stay between 6.7 and 7.0 volts even when i rev the engine
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 13, 2008 at 9:43 PM
KPierson wrote:
Tach signals are NOT alternating current or voltage - they are pulsing DC signals. They never go negative, something an "alternating" current must do.
The best way to verify a tach wire is to use a volt meter that reads frequency (quite a few "cheap" Craftsman meters will do it). Most cars tach signals will read around 11hz at idle and increase with RPM.
It sounds like you have the starter relays hooked up wrong - most remote starts should time out after a few seconds (10 at most). If it cranks until you make it stop I would guess you are driving your relays with the wrong signal.
the relays are triggered from the purple (12V to starter circuit wire from the RS) both relays share a constant (split) 12V hot wire and ground wire
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 14, 2008 at 7:13 AM
everything sound right?
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 14, 2008 at 8:12 AM
Can you set the unit to voltage monitoring to rule out the tach wire being an issue? ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: Mike M2
Date Posted: December 14, 2008 at 10:41 AM
The wire you are connected to is the correct wire according to DEI(which by the way lists it as an ALTERNATING CURRENT). As for the starter, MANY do not time out the starter. Both DEI and Avox units will grind the starter if it doesn't see a tach once it has been programmed. Take either manufacturers units in a working car and disconnect the tach wire, they WILL grind the starter unitl it turns off. You could try using an injector wire just to see if it will work for you....
-------------
Mike M2
Tech Manager
CS Dealer Services
Posted By: jrilla
Date Posted: December 14, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Forgive me if I missed something, but the remote starter will not output any voltage on the starter wire when you activate the remote starter when the engine is running, it will just turn on the Acc and Ign wires.
I still think you might have the wrong wires hooked up somewhere. I show the 2 starter wires being BLACK / YELLOW and GREEN/ YELLOW. Did you test the wires before connecting to them? I also show 12v+ as Green and Acc as RED / Yellow. This is a 2003 Nissan Xterra ,right?
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 14, 2008 at 5:16 PM
yes it is an 03 xterra. the wires you listed are at the connector about 12" down from the ignition switch. i connected mine at the ignition switch thus the different colors
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 14, 2008 at 7:32 PM
Mike M2 wrote:
The wire you are connected to is the correct wire according to DEI(which by the way lists it as an ALTERNATING CURRENT). As for the starter, MANY do not time out the starter. Both DEI and Avox units will grind the starter if it doesn't see a tach once it has been programmed. Take either manufacturers units in a working car and disconnect the tach wire, they WILL grind the starter unitl it turns off. You could try using an injector wire just to see if it will work for you....
So you're saying that if my wife hits her remote start (DEI) button on her remote and the unit never sees a tach signal it will crank the starter until she leaves the house 10 mintues later and shuts the remote start off? I find that impossible to believe. If you consider tach signals AC then you would have to consider CAN bus signals AC as well, and even ignition and headlight wires, as they all switch between 12vdc and ground. That being said, I have seen one vehicle that actually had an AC tach signal - it was a WRX that was using some sort of magnetic pick up that created a perfect sine wave (complete with - voltage). Most cars these days use crank angle hall effect sensors that are a pulsing DC square wave. When does the starter start to crank? DEI units turn the ignition on and then wait a few seconds before turning the starter on. So, if you have the starter wire hooked up correctly you should see the ignition turn on and then a few seconds later the starter should start to crank. ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 2:44 AM
Sorry Kevin,I'm with Mike M2 100% on this one, it's happened to me back before I realised how glitched the Wiz was and it lost the tach. (Always manually programme them nowadays).
Posted By: Mike M2
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 6:44 AM
Indeed that is what i am saying will happen. Any experienced installer has had a car come back that has been for service and the first thing the mechanic did was yank the tach wire off the coil or injector to help him find his problem. When that happens the starter will stay engaged the entire time it runs. If you don't believe me, try it once....
-------------
Mike M2
Tech Manager
CS Dealer Services
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 6:48 AM
ok i checked some stuff over. it isnt the starter staying engaged but the bendix seems like it is staying engaged. the starter wires only see power for a couple of senconds max until the truck starts. it is not trying to turn the engine but it sounds like the bendix is being turned by the flywheel still.
what is it that tells the bendix when to disengage? would this be the tach wire? if so can i just connect the tach wire to any of the injectors negative wire??
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 8:11 AM
Interesting I'll have to try it out tonight. In all my years of installing I have never seen this happen. In all my years of engineering I don't see how a reputable company would allow this to happen. Running a starter for 15 minutes while grinding the starter can cause substantial damage to a car - there is no reason a starter should ever crank longer then 30 seconds. The tach wire controls the starter out signal - if the signal is shutting off the starter should be losing power and the bendix should be retracting. Do you ever have problems when manually starting the car? ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: Mike M2
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 5:11 PM
Did you actually check the starter wires for voltage with a DVM to see if it shuts off? I can't see how it could stay engaged without power unless the bendix itself is sticking....
-------------
Mike M2
Tech Manager
CS Dealer Services
Posted By: robertsc
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 5:17 PM
i know with all the vipers i've had that have had the tach wire cut they only crank for a second or two then retry two more times i have never seen one crank and crank i think the max crank time on a viper is 8 seconds also measuring the tach wire i found that my fluke with frequency measurement is more reliable than trying to measure ac voltage
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 5:31 PM
i got the problem figured out.
the starter output was on the wrong prong on the RS. the diagram they sent with the unit was wrong and it was giving the starter wire a constant 12V when the RS was powered on.
i switched the wire positions and it cranks like it should now. the starter wire was on the (output to ign2) prong
there is still one issue i have found. when i crank it using the RS and then get in the truck and put the key in the ignition and turn it to the run position it will attempt to engage the starter for just a fraction of a second. i just tap the brake just before i turnthe key to remedy this for now till i find a solution.
THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP GUYS!!!!!
this is a GREAT forum with some expert installers!
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 7:58 PM
Now that you got it working time to upgrade to a remote start that you'll actually like! I spent 45 minutes today trying to reprogram a remote to a BOA system. Once the remote was finally programmed I got to enjoy the amazing 12' range. How is the range on your unit? ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 8:10 PM
KPierson wrote:
Now that you got it working time to upgrade to a remote start that you'll actually like!
I spent 45 minutes today trying to reprogram a remote to a BOA system. Once the remote was finally programmed I got to enjoy the amazing 12' range.
How is the range on your unit?
LOL, mine isn't that bad. i started it from over 60 ft away. my truck is only parked about 10ft from my home so the range doesnt have to be too far.
i'm looking to put a RS on my wifes 07 Accord also. any recomendations? i know i need the transponder bypass from DEI. what is a nicer RS so she wont have any problems?
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 8:43 PM
I've always been a big fan of the Valet 562T. However, if you're happy with the Boa stick with it. I just put a 562T on my wife's CR-V and I really like it. ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 9:10 PM
The results are in: Despite the fact its 20 degrees outside and dark I went out and cut the tach wire to the DEI Valet 562T in my wife's 2008 CR-V. I remote started the vehicle and the starter cranked for no more then 3 seconds then shut down. A few seconds later it cranked again for no more then 3 seconds then shut down. It tried a third time with the same result. This is by no means a full test but does at least show that the newer DEI systems, upon seeing no tach siganal WILL time out and shut down. My Dad has 550ESPs installed in two of his vehicles - if I can get my hands on one I'll snip the tach wire to see what it does. They are both fairly older units and I'm now curious to see what happens. ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 9:29 PM
did you have to use the transponder bypass on your CRV?
how much more difficult is it to program?
Posted By: Mike M2
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 9:30 PM
The starter giving a quick grind when you turn the key on is a common problem found only on the Xterra. There used to be a Directed document showing how to wire a relay to solve this problem but i can't find it. Basically what you do is wire the relay to kill the starter wire(on the switch side of the RS connections) that is controlled by statis output wire. You may find a thread here that explains it better. If needed, i can make up a diagram.... As for the removed tach wire, i haven't installed Directed in years. I think the last ones we installed were the Automate 556A and that would hold the starter on. We now install Pursuit(Avox) and even the new stuff does this as i had one a few months ago that Carmax disconnected the tach wire on an 05 Explorer with the same result. It is possible the newer DEI units don't, dunno. ------------- Mike M2
Tech Manager
CS Dealer Services
Posted By: saleengt2001
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 10:06 PM
LOL, it would be a problem only on the Xterra!!:D thats just my luck
Posted By: tedmond
Date Posted: December 15, 2008 at 11:30 PM
i installed a few myself and havent seen the unit crank more than 5 seconds. maybe its cuz im too new to th field and havent seen or installed any units that would overcrank.
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 16, 2008 at 6:26 AM
saleengt2001 wrote:
did you have to use the transponder bypass on your CRV?
how much more difficult is it to program?
I used one of the "universal" modules from bypass kits for the CR-V. It was simple to install and program. The only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that it is only "universal" if you have a programmer. Mine came loaded with Toyota firmware and I didn't have a programmer. I ended up finding a local shop that flashed it for free for me so it wasn't a huge deal, just a bit inconvenient. They do sell kits that are already programmed to work with Hondas so make sure you verify what you are buying doesn't need to be flashed! ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: advanced
Date Posted: December 16, 2008 at 5:38 PM
I had the same problem with a 2003 Nissan Xterra. I've also seen it in a Nissan Maxima-can't remember the year. The diagram you provided should properly isolate the 2 starters, if wired properly. Check your wiring carefully. What I did is connect the remote start starter output to the 1st (main) starter wire. I also used this 1st starter wire to power a relay on pin 86 & pin 87. Pin 86 goes to (-) status output wire. Pin 30 goes to 2nd starter wire. This worked perfectly. There's several other ways of doing this & achieving the same results. https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=87398&KW=eliminate+starter+grind+altima ------------- Good Enough Isn't!
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