digital interface/protocols?
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=110302
Printed Date: April 27, 2024 at 12:44 PM
Topic: digital interface/protocols?
Posted By: loneranger
Subject: digital interface/protocols?
Date Posted: January 03, 2009 at 7:49 PM
I'm new to the CAN scene. I was a proffesional mobile technician for ~10 years up until ~1995. I would now consider my self a semi-professional, since I've been away from the industry for so long. Back then, it was pretty much all analog(w2w). However, I would like some knowledge about the interface/protocols that are being used by the aftermarket alarm manufacturers, for communication between their products and others. What are the different interface/protocols being used and what are their names? What are their compatibilties with other manufacturers interface/protocols and any issues? I've tried to do as much specific research on my own(2 weeks) but, there isn't much that I've found. If you want to be either very technical or completely vague, I'm ok with that. I know some techs hold onto their knowledge like a patent and won't license it. :o): I never did that. My brief encounter here in the forums lends me to believe the vast majority of techs here don't either. Otherwise, why would they be here. If you just want to point me to links, I'm fine with that too. I've probably already read them though. :D Give it a shot anyway. if you feel the need. Within the next couple of days to week, I'm going to install(R/S K/E) either a Viper 5301 or 5501 into my 2002 Honda CRV, that is originally equipped with keyless entry and an immobilizer. I going to do this as inexpensively as possible and will not sacrifice security(no key and digital). I've seen at least 2 different interface/prototcols, if I'm not mistaken. I believe one is called D2D/DBI that is used by DEI. I'm not sure if this and the others are proprietary or some CAN derivative. I like what I've seen though, as far as the capabilities of these aftermarket modules and their vehicle integrations. Based on my specific vehicle though, there isn't much integration. :x However, it's old so I understand. Of the applications I've seen, I found 3 modules that I'm leaning towards(Honda SL3, TBSL-HA, and PKH34). My understanding is only one(PKH34) of these provides a more secure installation(disables analog communication) when using the D2D port. It may also be the only one compatible with DEI products, hence my reason for the topic of this thread. I believe it could be made even more secure, if there was some sort of unique(un-cloanable) encrypted communication as well? Of course, if you see any errors in my ways, please feel free to correct me. Basically, helping to answer the first paragraph would give me the information I need to understand the architectures used today and the confidence that my products, whatever they may finally be, will work properly together with my given knowledge. TIA for your time. -LR
Replies:
Posted By: tedmond
Date Posted: January 03, 2009 at 9:02 PM
What are the different interface/protocols being used and what are their names? What are their compatibilties with other manufacturers interface/protocols and any issues? there are many out there. try to grab any of the following bypasses. Fortin, Bypasskits, iDataLink. for the 02 i dont think you will need a canbus unit since most wires would be at the ignition, driver/pass kick and maybe door. i havent had any real issues with digital interfaces but had issues with the honda-sl3 programming, but i realised i missed one wire. also the tach wire output on the units reallly suck. i wrote something awhile back about this issue. most units will now have d2d or datacontrolled wire(saves time) but i still prefer to hardwire all outputs to bypass interface to prevent ant faults through data wire. im sorry if i confused you. if you got more q's feel free to ask.
Posted By: loneranger
Date Posted: January 03, 2009 at 9:50 PM
Thank for the reply. The thread was not how integrate or install modules into a vehicle, nor how to integrate or install RS/alarms into a vehicle. I very competent at this exercise, knowledgeable about the wiring for vehicles, and understand what is available on the buses the in different vehicles. This thread was mainly to get knowledge of the various interface/protocols used to integrate the various products together, that are offered by aftermarket accessory and alarm manufacturers.
Posted By: djfearny2
Date Posted: January 03, 2009 at 10:05 PM
some basics are can bus, which now adays controls the acc, door trigger status, immobilizer bypass etc. output for most cars like audio, vw, dodge, and many more, you have databus, gm lan, however again canbus is starting to be the new trend as it is the most reliable and effective thus far.
a little history, now with these systems car manufactors have the ability to diagnose problems faster than ever before. also to allow onboard computers to be more sophistacated adn monitor a lot more details.
-------------
Jon
Installer/Help Technician
---coral springs florida---
mecp certification is not always needed. I have it and it has not helped me out at all. my experience out shines it.
Posted By: djfearny2
Date Posted: January 03, 2009 at 10:11 PM
and sorry btw,
your honda does not incororate canbus. your door locks are standard ground triggers the car has an chipped key so you will need to get a bypass for that. some optuons are 556uw which you probably know is a hide a key, waiste))) or you can go with an xk05 from bypasskits.com you will more than likey have to get it programmed from someone with a bootloader. but the xk05 is just for key bypass the door locks and triggers etc need to be W2R connected.
-------------
Jon
Installer/Help Technician
---coral springs florida---
mecp certification is not always needed. I have it and it has not helped me out at all. my experience out shines it.
Posted By: loneranger
Date Posted: January 03, 2009 at 11:52 PM
Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate your input djfearny2, as well as yours tedmond. Everyone can gleen some information from almost any reply. I hope neither of you took/take any offense to my replies. I may be new to the CAN scene but, I'm completely competent about the CAN concept. I'm not an expert mind you but, any information I need on CAN is available, as it's a industry standard. I am professionally knowledgable about vehicle wiring, whether it be analog or digital. I know what is available for integration into vehicles and how it is integrated into those vehicles. I used my scenario in my opening post as a way of explaining where a past mobile electronics technician who may be coming into the industry again is left, in regards to knowledge about the aftermarket alarm and alarm accessories industries internal integration. There really seems to be no source of information about this, even from the vendors themselves. I guess I need to clarify this thread more. It's not about integration into the vehicle. This thread is mainly about the proprietary interface/protocols created and used by the aftermarket alarm and alarm accessories manufacturers, to integrate their products together and their cross-compatibility with others. Specifically, their naming schemes, their compatibility with other manufacturers, and any issues that may arise when integrated together. Current mobile electronics technicians themselves must come across this scenario daily. Note: I wish there was an edit feature in these forums!
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 04, 2009 at 4:23 AM
Yes we do it's frustrating but apart from the need for interfaces we are all at sea here. Don't confuse CAN with data and multiplex (resistive) they are all different systems, also a problem is that for instance, VW/Audi will change the protocols every couple of years. As a general rule, forget CAN on Japanese/Korean cars except for the last two years, as Ted says YOUR vehicle is pretty straight forward, the only part you would need would be a transponder by-pass. Read the posts and see what the pros and the smart youngsters tike Ted are using.
Posted By: chriswallace187
Date Posted: January 04, 2009 at 5:42 PM
Loneranger, there is an edit feature, but it's limited to members with 50 or more posts I believe.
I get what you're saying. I wrote a bit on the subject the other day, incidentally.
From what I'm gathering (and I'm a bit behind too in that all of my installs have been wire-to-wire connection between modules), all of the data connections from remote start/alarm/combo units and data vehicle interface modules are 4-pin RS232. However from what I understand of RS232, it's only a specification for the connectors and has nothing to do with the data itself to be transferred.
As far as the actual data protocol I haven't got a clear answer myself. If you notice in my linked post, there are 3 companies making D2D interfaces(Fortin, Idatalink, Bypasskit). I can't say for sure that they have agreed on a common data protocol from module to module (obviously CAN, J1850, etc. are all industry standards not limited to aftermarket car electronics). Some speculation:
Code Alarm, an Audiovox brand, offers these interface modules, which are rebadged Bypasskit modules.
Audiovox's tech services site, however, has a "FlashLogic" pull down menu with 2 separate options, one marked "Generation 1" which goes to the "Xpressdownload" (Bypasskit) site, and another marked "Generation 2" which goes to this site(Idatalink).
This to me suggests that at least Idatalink and Bypasskit share a D2D protocol, though I can't say about Fortin. I'd really appreciate it if someone who knows more than me could chime in on the subject. ------------- C Renner's Auto Electronix
My service is cheap, quick, and good - pick any two
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 04, 2009 at 6:02 PM
Chris the problem is you and I , wouldn't say know more but we are all struggling because no -one tells us anything, my post this week about Peogeots was simply that as per usual I ended up telling DEI how to do it! It's left to people like us to work it out, trouble is we have to pay the bils when we get it wrong. The dealer's here are a waste of time unless you contract to them, they know nothing, certain CAN conversion kits, no names arfe I gather a waste of time, they just don't do what they are supposed to do and I still prefer hard wiring because somewhere that CAN/data etc is going to come out of a control unit as 12volts+ or-!!. An example is picking up the VSS on late Mercedes, all the text books give you CAN high low either at the gearbox management or ign switch BUT pin one usualy blank on the traction control is an analogue, I'm not sure of the reliability factor of all these processors, the manufacturers only do it to save weight to decrease fuel consumption and the copper wire saved plus easier diagnostics. To take this to it's giddy and rather ironic conclusion, there are 8 CH47 helicopters sitting uselessly in a field in England. They are much needed in Afghanistan but Boeing haven't released the servicing software!
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 04, 2009 at 6:05 PM
I owe an apology on my last post, let's give credit to young Ted, Mr. Luongo, I am an idiot and CKeeler who coiuld all probably work this out.
Posted By: chriswallace187
Date Posted: January 04, 2009 at 6:56 PM
howie II wrote:
To take this to it's giddy and rather ironic conclusion, there are 8 CH47 helicopters sitting uselessly in a field in England. They are much needed in Afghanistan but Boeing haven't released the servicing software!
Gay...I'd be doing all kinds of "social engineering" to get that software if I was the military guy working on those choppers. Hell, if the Nigerians can get people to actually respond with valid information, what's stopping me lol?
On the subject of CAN and J1850, is there anyone reading this who could post a link to documentation of those standards(hint: loneranger)? I've never found anything available on CAN for under $100 or so. J1850 I've read the data transmission protocol(well, for GM's Variable Pulse Width version at least), but never got a good read on the message codes for example.
------------- C Renner's Auto Electronix
My service is cheap, quick, and good - pick any two
Posted By: robertsc
Date Posted: January 04, 2009 at 7:09 PM
Posted By: tedmond
Date Posted: January 04, 2009 at 9:15 PM
howie ll wrote:
, as Ted says YOUR vehicle is pretty straight forward, the only part you would need would be a transponder by-pass. Read the posts and see what the pros and the smart youngsters tike Ted are using.
im flattered howie :)
Posted By: loneranger
Date Posted: January 04, 2009 at 9:36 PM
[QUOTE=chriswallace187]... However from what I understand of RS232, it's only a specification for the connectors and has nothing to do with the data itself to be transferred.[QUOTE] It's actually a specification of the interface used for communication. It's a serialized interface. However, the protocols used for the interfaces of the manufacturers is not made available. Probably for security reasons, as any genreal knowledge of the protocol would easily defeat the "secure" mode. I know that ADS(Automotive Data Solutions) is working hard to provide compatibility with the D2D/ED2D protocol. I'm not quite sure what the E in ED2D stands for. I'm guessing it stands for Encrypted, as the newer modules allow their interface to be "secure" as well.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 05, 2009 at 4:00 AM
I think we have to get friendly with Nav-TV in the US and Sailes Marketing in the UK!!!
Posted By: loneranger
Date Posted: January 05, 2009 at 4:18 AM
I just received word from a friend  that the "E" in "ED2D" stands for "Extended". Select DEI modules now retrieve more data from the vehicle interface(bus). The aftermarket interface on select DEI modules offer "secure" mode, though. I guess their protocol is their encryption.
Posted By: loneranger
Date Posted: January 05, 2009 at 11:02 PM
I spoke with ADS today. Automobility in Canada is the only authorized distibutor anywhere, with the iDataLink-D2D/ED2D cable. However, it will be available by February in the States I'm told. ADS has a firmware flash for the DBI(D2D/ED2D) protocol availble, if you want to experiment designing a custom cable.
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