using 611t to create a ground when armed
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=112072
Printed Date: June 01, 2024 at 1:24 AM
Topic: using 611t to create a ground when armed
Posted By: phree_refill
Subject: using 611t to create a ground when armed
Date Posted: March 03, 2009 at 9:05 AM
I have 2001 silverado with a directed electronics ready remote deluxe model 23927 remote start that i installed. I recently put a bunch of aftermarket electronics in my truck and i would like to have a little more securtiy than just the door trigger wires to set off my alarm. I was looking at getting a 508D (https://akamaipix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/607/607508D.PDF) field frequency alarm input to give me that added bit of security. I see in the install manual where it says that I need a "ground when armed" output wire in order to hook up the 508D though. Well, my remote starter does not have a ground when armed output on it. It says right there in the 508D manual that if my "security system does not have a (-) ground-when-armed output, then a 611T latching relay may be used to provide one." It doesn't go into any further detail about how exactly to go about wiring up the 611T in order to create one. So thats why I have turned to you guys with your far superior knowledge about such things. :D I have racked my brain trying to think of how i can wire the 611T latching relay into my door locks to provide the (-) ground-when-armed output i need but I just can't quite get it all sorted out in my head. If anyone has any thoughts, advice, or suggestions then I would love to get your input.
Replies:
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: March 03, 2009 at 11:54 AM
Not neccessary, just ground the black wire.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 03, 2009 at 1:31 PM
That would lust leave it armed constantly though would it not? I understand that when i push the unlock button on my remote, it would disarm the alarm input wire on the remote start and thus not allow the alarm to go off when the 508 sends out an alarm signal. But wouldn't the 508 still be sending out a signal to trip the alarm constanly once i was inside my truck and moving around? Lets say i wanted to hook up a voice module as described in the 508D manual. I would for sure need the (-) ground-when-armed output wire then wouldn't I?
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: March 03, 2009 at 1:51 PM
OK, you didn't mention the other products did you, never seen a 611t, doesn't it come with instructions? If not use a double coil latching relay You have your NC, NO and common plus 2 x pos coil and 2 x neg coil. If your locks are neg going, make the pos sides permanent (1amp fuse) and feed 1 neg coil to latch, then feed the other neg coil to unlatch. It's that simple. The joy of a latching relay is that it doesn't draw any juice.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 03, 2009 at 1:55 PM
here is that 611T ( https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/uploads/611t_timed_latch_relay.pdf) I would assume it would work for my application if the 508 referenced it.
Posted By: 91stt
Date Posted: March 03, 2009 at 3:09 PM
what security system do you want to integrate the 508T with? how is the starter disable handled?
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 03, 2009 at 4:19 PM
The Ready Remote 23927 isn't really considered a security system. It is a remote start with keyless entry/ trunk release, panic, parking lights control, and basic alarm. It is a design tech product which is owned by directed electronics. The module is set up so that the tach wire functions as an alarm input wire when tach mode is not selected. It is a negative pulse triggered wire. The only pre-exhisting negative triggers i have in my truck is the door trigger wires. I have them diode isolated onto this alarm/tach wire. When you push the lock button on the remote it "arms" the remote starter module so that if the doors are opened by any other means than unlocking them with the remote itself then it sets the alarm off. This feature is slightly annoying because it doesn't allow me to use my key to unlock the doors without the alarm going off. Anyways, this remote starter module has no negative ground-when-armed wire. It does have a "Factory alarm disarm" wire. The manual says it sends out a breif negative pulse just before starting to disarm the factory alarm. I did not have to hook up this wire for my truck however. Could this wire be what i'm looking for? It has three safety features to shut the remote starter off should a theif try to steal the vehicle once it's remote started. It has a hood pin switch, a brake pedal shut off, and if the vehicle is somehow shifted out of park without the key in the ignition it also shuts it down. 23927 manual (https://www.designtech-intl.com/pdf/manuals/23927.pdf)
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: March 03, 2009 at 4:32 PM
Use your door lock and unlock trigger wires, sequentially to arm and disarm the 611t. Remember to diode them together.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 6:41 AM
On the 611T, it has one input wire for latching and unlatching. It can recieve a positive or negative pulse. The way i understand it is that one negative pulse will latch the 611T and then another negative pulse will unlatch it. Howie, by that logic wouldn't it be possible for me to accidentally unlatch the 611T by simply pushing the lock button on my transmitter one to many times? Or is there a certain way i can wire it in so that ONLY a pulse from the lock wire will latch it and ONLY a pulse from the unlock wire will unlatch it? Btw, i really appreciate your help.
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 10:51 AM
phree_refill wrote:
On the 611T, it has one input wire for latching and unlatching. It can recieve a positive or negative pulse. The way i understand it is that one negative pulse will latch the 611T and then another negative pulse will unlatch it. Howie, by that logic wouldn't it be possible for me to accidentally unlatch the 611T by simply pushing the lock button on my transmitter one to many times? Or is there a certain way i can wire it in so that ONLY a pulse from the lock wire will latch it and ONLY a pulse from the unlock wire will unlatch it? Btw, i really appreciate your help.
in that case what you should really do is ditch the 611T and go with Howie's original suggestion of using a dual coil latching relay.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 12:15 PM
Ok. That brings me to a common problem i encounter when trying to find these relays. Anyone have a part number for a dual coil latching relay as described in post #4 above? Or a link to where i can buy one that is suitable for my application? I do searches on the internet but mostly what comes up are relays for printed circuit boards or 110 AC. Plus even when i do find ones that i believe are what i want, i'm still not completely sure if they are appropriate for my use. I thank anyone in advance for pointing me in the right direction.
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 12:29 PM
the only termination you will find for the relay you need is going to be PC pin. you will just have to work with it. if thats ok, i can give you some part numbers.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 12:44 PM
Yeah i'm willing to work with one. So long as it is compatible to be used on a 12 volt sytem and won't blow up I'm down.
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 1:02 PM
Digi-key part #255-1618-ND will work fine.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 1:33 PM
Thank you very much ckeeler. If you could help me understand the workings of this relay now i would very much appreciate it. I believe i know how it is to be hooked up to serve the purpose of my application but i just want to clear a few things up. Here is the catalog page for the digikey relay you referenced above. (https://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T091/P2181.pdf) It is in diagram E on the right hand side of the page. Correct me if i'm wrong here: For my application, this relay should be wired with poles 1 and 2 wired to a fused 12 volt constant. Poles 15 and 16 should we wired to my door lock wires that show negatives when locked and unlocked respectivley. Pole 5 should be wired to a chassis ground. And pole 8 will then become my (-) ground-when-armed wire. Do i have it right?
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 2:10 PM
exactly.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 2:36 PM
 SWEET! Hey thanks a lot! While your here and if you don't mind i have a few questions about some of the other relays on that page (https://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T091/P2181.pdf) for my own knowledge in the future. Diagrams 2D and 2F look like they are the exact same relay. Whats the difference in them? And how exactly do they work? Does power acrossed one coil open BOTH of the latches and power acrossed the other coil close both latches? Also, diagram 2B has a relay with a discription over in the chart of "SPST-NO" I know it stands for "single post, single throw-normally open" But how does it function? Does it act in the same manner as the 611T does that i was referencing earlier where one single input on post 16 will open the latch and then another single input on the same post will close the latch? My last question has to do with how much power these things can handle. I know what the coil voltage means but what does the coil resistance, coil current and contact ratings mean in relation to how it functions? What exactly does each number tell me?
If you can set me straight on these last couple questions you will have just opend up a whole new realm of possibilites for me. I had no idea there were relays out there that had these types of functions. Even more exciting is that i will be able to actually go out and find the relays i need in the future without bugging you guys.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Current rating should be on that list but the smaller ones are about 2amps, more than adequate for your requirements.
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 3:13 PM
phree_refill wrote:
SWEET! Hey thanks a lot! While your here and if you don't mind i have a few questions about some of the other relays on that page (https://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T091/P2181.pdf) for my own knowledge in the future. Diagrams 2D and 2F look like they are the exact same relay. Whats the difference in them? And how exactly do they work? Does power acrossed one coil open BOTH of the latches and power acrossed the other coil close both latches? Also, diagram 2B has a relay with a discription over in the chart of "SPST-NO" I know it stands for "single post, single throw-normally open" But how does it function? Does it act in the same manner as the 611T does that i was referencing earlier where one single input on post 16 will open the latch and then another single input on the same post will close the latch? My last question has to do with how much power these things can handle. I know what the coil voltage means but what does the coil resistance, coil current and contact ratings mean in relation to how it functions? What exactly does each number tell me? If you can set me straight on these last couple questions you will have just opend up a whole new realm of possibilites for me. I had no idea there were relays out there that had these types of functions. Even more exciting is that i will be able to actually go out and find the relays i need in the future without bugging you guys.
in figure 2F that relay type has 2 sets of NO contacts. in 2D one contact set is NO and the other set is NC. in figure 2F yes, power across one coil opens both contacts and then power on the other coil closes both. for the relay in 2D one will be open and the other one closed. the relay in 2B will not work like the 611T. it is a latching relay, but once it is latched to unlatch it, the polarity on the coil must be reversed, it will then stay that way until the polarity is reversed on the coil again, latching the relay once more. the contact ratings are how much current they can carry through them.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 3:37 PM
Thanks for the reassurance Howie on how much power this little relay can handle. And thank you very much ckeeIer for your explanations. I understand now. So it seems that the 611T is still very useful in that it appears to be one of the few latching relays out there that will open AND close using only one "pole" and NOT needing the polarity to change. Correct?
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 3:50 PM
phree_refill wrote:
So it seems that the 611T is still very useful in that it appears to be one of the few latching relays out there that will open AND close using only one "pole" and NOT needing the polarity to change. Correct?
yes. to work like that, an electronic solution is needed as there is no mechanical relay that will work like that.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 3:59 PM
I hate to be a persistent pest but now i have another question. I have never dealt with such small relays that have poles designed for printed circuit boards rather than connecting wire directly to them. I assume the best way to go about connecting my wires to each pole will be to solder my wires to them. I mean, there really is no other way is there?
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 4:07 PM
I tend to place them in a vice and solder a number at the same time alternatively you want to be upside down under the dash and try soldering them...not.
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 4:10 PM
i like to purchase the sockets that they fit into and just solder and heat shrink my wires to the socket so that if a relay ever has to be changed, just pop it out and put in a new one. (the sockets have the same type of pins that you will have to solder to as the relay however) just like an IC socket.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 4:38 PM
I'm very excited now! I just realized how i can "turn off" my after market alarm using my key rather than having to push the unlock button on my remote all the time. Listen to what i have come up with and tell me if you see any faults in it. Ok i go ahead and get this dual coil latching relay all wired in. I have now just created my own (-) ground-when-armed wire that functions right along with my remote start keyless entry. As i currently have the alarm set up, the door trigger wires are diode isolated straight to the alarm input wire of the remote start system. So the only way to NOT have the alarm go off is to ALWAYS use the remote to unlock the doors. Well my truck has a door lock cylinder wire that sends out a negative pulse when i turn the key to the unlock position in the drivers door. I tap into that door lock cylinder wire and run it to the post on my dual coil latching relay that also hosts the negative unlock wire from my remote starter module (diode isolate both the door unlock wire from the remote starter module and door lock cylinder wire from my truck). Now every time i turn the key in the door lock it unlatches the dual coil relay just like what pushing the unlock button on my remote would do. Now that i have a ground-when-armed wire that can be controlled by either the key in the door or by the keyless entry, I remove my door trigger wires off of the alarm input wire of the remote starter. I take the (-) ground-when-armed wire that i created with the latching relay and run it to post 30 on a regular bosche style relay. I run a 12 volts constant to post 85 on that bosche relay. I run the door trigger wire to post 86 on that bosche relay. And i run the alarm input wire of my remote start to post 87 of that bosche relay. I wire both door trigger wires up the exact same way. Now the only way the door trigger wires will set off my alarm is if the (-) ground-when-armed wire is "armed" and the doors are opened by any other manner than by "disarming" this ground-when-armed wire (so basically the alarm will go off if the doors are not unlocked by either my key or by the remote on my remote start) So what do you think? Sorry to be long winded but i was just trying to describe in detail what i was trying to say to hopefully eliminate confusion. You guys see any flaws in the that setup?
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 5:00 PM
Dream on, the bosch relay will flatten your battery overnight. secondly, all they have to do is "force" your doorlock? Great, thirdly why not disconnect the door key swithc wire so it only works on the remote.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 5:21 PM
The coil on the bosh relay will not be energized. It will not draw any power. The only time it will be energized is in the instance that someone breaks into the truck and opens the doors. The door trigger wire will then produce teh power acrossed the coil.
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 5:32 PM
are you worried someone could just force the lock cylinder on the door to turn?
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 5:46 PM
No not really. How hard is it exactly to do that? Theifs around my area usually break in by busting windows or other more damaging entry methods. My girlfriend's convertible had the top cut on it and they just crawled down through that.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 04, 2009 at 5:56 PM
Plus as i stated in my original post and the reason i started this thread, i needed this ground-when-armed wire so i can install the directed 508D radar field sensor. If i get that installed and adjusted correctly, anyone that is close enough and stands around the vehicle long enough to "force" the lock will surely set off this radar alarm input. In theory they would anyways...
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: March 05, 2009 at 1:45 AM
Sorry I read your post wrong that's why we've been fighting to standardise, such as 86 ALWAYS being coil pos, when you said door trigger I wrongly read it as door LOCK trigger. I would have used door CONTACT. Still think involving door lock is stupid, eg wasn't there an issue a year or so ago with all GM product having the same keys? It probably only takes a well placed screwdriver to have your door lock away.
Posted By: phree_refill
Date Posted: March 05, 2009 at 7:25 AM
ckeeler wrote:
i like to purchase the sockets that they fit into and just solder and heat shrink my wires to the socket so that if a relay ever has to be changed, just pop it out and put in a new one. (the sockets have the same type of pins that you will have to solder to as the relay however) just like an IC socket.
Where can i find these sockets at? Does digikey sell them also?
Posted By: ckeeler
Date Posted: March 05, 2009 at 8:46 AM
phree_refill wrote:
Where can i find these sockets at? Does digikey sell them also?
yes they do. they may list it as a related product that you can click on when you look up the part, or it may even show them or at least list the part numbers on the data sheets for the relay you are looking at. try pulling up a relay you are interested in, and then check the data sheet.
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