Printer Friendly Forum Posts - Viper 5901, 95 Pontiac Trans Am

I'm installing a Viper 5901 in my 95 Pontiac Trans Am. I am only hooking up the alarm and not the remote start. I initially thought I only needed to use Harness 1 which included the power, ground, door triggers, etc.

I noticed that there is a Harness 3 that is required too for the starter kill but I'm not sure to what extent. So my questions are as follows:

H3/1 IGNITION 1 INPUT/OUTPUT: Straight forward enough.

H3/2 (+) (30A) FUSED IGNITION 2: ??

H3/3 ACCESSORY OUTPUT: I have this wire but I'm just wondering why the alarm needs this?

H3/6 (+) (30A) FUSED IGNITION 1 RELAY INPUT: What is this and do I need it?

H3/7 (+) IGNITION 2 FLEX RELAY OUTPUT: ??

H3/8 87a OF IGNITION 2 FLEX RELAY: ??

H3/9 (+) (30A) FUSED ACCESSORY/STARTER RELAY INPUT: ??

Thanks guys for bearing with me.

Why not do the remote start...You have the chip(resistor) half way down your key ...right...? There is an easy DIY bypass for those...Or can bypass for good and never have to buy another resistor key...?? There is so many posts on that unit...Have you used the search feature...This unit should be banned unless installed by a shop...The wording is tough...ey...

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M.E.C.P & First-Class
Go slow and drink lots of water...Procrastinators' Unite...Tomorrow!

I have a manual car so I just decided not to get involved with the auto start right now. The wiring seems pretty straight forward for the Main harness and the locks but I'm just not understanding the points I listed above or whether I even need those wires for the alarm/starter kill.

use h3/1, green and purple on the remote start.

Green to keyside of starter wire
Purple to starter side of starter wire.

this is the starter kill.

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Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

Thanks tedmond so you're saying out of that harness the only wires I will need since I'm not installing the remote start are the H3/1 and the green and violet wires for the internal relay on the starter kill?

you'll also need to hook up the thick pink in the primary harness as that supplies ign power to reset the alarm.... otherwise your LED will flash forever.... plus it uses this circuit to monitor whether the vehicle is being hot wired..... this is the only wire in that harness that should need to be connected.....plus of course, park lights, door trigger, power, ground, etc. etc from the 12 pin secondary harness....

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Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer

Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979

Thanks kgerry I think the thick pink wire you're referring to is H3/1 in the remote start harness.

H3/1 PINK (+) IGNITION 1 INPUT/OUTPUT

Please let me know if you're referring to something different.

thats the one

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Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer

Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979

You probably know this, but I didn't see it mentioned, You have to cut your ignitions starter wire. Then connect the R/S green wire to the key side of the cut wire and R/S violet wire to the starter side of the cut wire. This unit is designed to work with a manual transmission. It requires you to go through a shutdown sequence when you park the car to ensure that you haven't left it in gear. R/S is a nice feature, you'll need to get a bypass module if you decide to hook it up.

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Thanks monty the directions were pretty clear regarding cutting the ignition wire and that's what I will do.

Regarding the remote start, it is absolutely a useful feature, especially on this car where the heater takes a long time to warm up and its always a good idea to warm the engine before driving so I usually end up sitting in a cold car waiting for it to warm up.

However, this is my first alarm install and although I haven't started the car yet, I feel confident that i will not have many issues. I would feel much more comfortable, however, having someone around that is more experienced if I am going to install a remote start. I already have the VATS bypassed for other reasons, its a simple resistor that I soldered to the ignition switch.

I may just get quotes on installing the remote switch or maybe after doing some more research I'll feel more comfortable and tackle the remote start at a later time.

The remote starter portion is literally just hooking the h3 harness. If you were able to successfully integrate the alarm portion, remote start is just a few more wires...

OK fair enough. Let me get the alarm working and I'll probably tackle the remote start with some guidance from you all.

ssbowtie1 wrote:

Thanks monty the directions were pretty clear regarding cutting the ignition wire and that's what I will do.

Regarding the remote start, it is absolutely a useful feature, especially on this car where the heater takes a long time to warm up and its always a good idea to warm the engine before driving so I usually end up sitting in a cold car waiting for it to warm up.

However, this is my first alarm install and although I haven't started the car yet, I feel confident that i will not have many issues. I would feel much more comfortable, however, having someone around that is more experienced if I am going to install a remote start. I already have the VATS bypassed for other reasons, its a simple resistor that I soldered to the ignition switch.

I may just get quotes on installing the remote switch or maybe after doing some more research I'll feel more comfortable and tackle the remote start at a later time.

First of all...Do NOT cut the Ignition wire...Rather the starter wire...! Also you might have trouble finding a shop to just hook up the remote starter portion as the price will probably be almost the same...And they might be reluctant that you installed part of it ...(honoring a warranty on labor...If something went wrong...Probably go something like"well you installed the alarm portion and thats what caused the issue,so another $150 please")

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M.E.C.P & First-Class
Go slow and drink lots of water...Procrastinators' Unite...Tomorrow!

Yea I meant to say the starter wire :)

Well I'm glad to say I've successfully installed the alarm. The only thing that doesn't seem to be working is the shock sensor. I do have the alarm zip tied to a piece of plastic between the body and the panel though so that might be a problem. I simply can't find an open surface on the body or under the dash to mount the alarm to.

Anyway, I've decided I might want to tackle the remote start, however I still don't know what the flex relay is or if I need it so if someone would be so kind to elaborate on that and if anyone has any advice on wiring a remote start to a manual I'd love to hear it.

the flex relay is basically a pre-wired relay inside the brain. If you were to think of it as a regular relay the RED / white is 30 and the pink/white is 87. It can be used to trigger extra starter, ignition, or accessory wires.

It looks like you have a (+)2nd ignition in your vehicle, so you will connect the RED / white to 12v and the pink/white to the 2nd ignition wire.

The rest is pretty straight forward. Red to 12v, pink to ignition, orange to accessory, and you already got the starter hooked up.

As for the remaining connections, you should already have the door triggers hooked for the alarm so the only other connections you should need besides the h3 harness are going to be the NSS wire, brake wire, and tach. You also will need to bypass the clutch during remote start, which you can probably do a search on.

Thanks x1le so I guess that means I don't need H3/8 (+) FLEX RELAY INPUT 87A key side (if required) of FLEX RELAY.

All the other wires seem straight forward. The only thing is manuals don't have a neutral safety switch? So do I hook this wire up to the ebrake wire as stated?

I'll do a search on bypassing the clutch to learn more.

Thanks everyone I never thought I'd install a remote start but with your help its starting to seem more realistic.

No problem man.

yep you don't need the pink/black and yes, you would hook the NSS up to your ebrake.

As far as the clutch, it's been covered a bunch of times on the forum, but basically you should have a wire that go's to ground when the clutch is engaged. You just need to send this wire a negative pulse when remote starting. I would use the (-) starter output from the remotestart.

Thanks again x1le.

The main problem I'm having now is how to get +12V to the 3 heavy gauge wires. Each of these wires has a 30A fuse so we're talking a total of potentially 90A! Plus there's the main alarm power which is another 15A. I can't imagine its ok to just splice all these wires into the +12 at the ignition harness, so does everyone just run a large gauge wire from the batt or a dist. block to hook these wires up? My battery is in the front pass side, so I would have to run a long wire to get it to the driver's side where all these wire will be.

That is what I did. I could have tapped into a large 120 amp feed that goes to my smart junction box. However, I have a new car and I still cringe whenever I have to splice a wire. I bought a 3/8" terminal post and attached it to a 1.25" inch wide steel strip. I had a unused stud that protruded from the firewall and attached the strip to that. I ran a 8 gauge wire from the battery to the post. It has an inline fuse near the battery. I ran all my 12 volt wires to the terminal post. I also drilled a 1/4" hole in the steel strap and put a bolt in there to use for my ground wires. Ran a ground wire from the neg battery cable pigtail to that bolt. I have a rubber cap that covers the terminal. A lot of time involved, but I'm happy with the result.
posted_image

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Did you mount the shock sensor...I usually find a big harness and zip-tie it to the big wire loom...Ive noticed it being not sensitive and waaayyy to sensitive mounting directly to the metal...Other times it has worked fine...But usually right to a big fat loom of wires...!

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M.E.C.P & First-Class
Go slow and drink lots of water...Procrastinators' Unite...Tomorrow!

Well I called a couple alarm install shops today and they all told me that when installing the remote start its ok to splice all those heavy gauge wires into the red ignition harness so all my +12v will come from the 12 gauge power wire in the ignition harness.

tommy I was under the impression that the shock sensor was built into the 5901. I found a place on the ventilation ducting that I will be mounting the main unit to. Its in the center of the car, so the heavy gague wires will run right to the ignition wires and any other wires won't be too far off. If I have any problems with the internal shock sensor due to the velcro or the mounting location, I'm sure I can disconnect the onboard shock sensor and just hook up another one somewhere else at a later time.

x1le thanks for the info regarding the clutch switch. I put a DIMM on the wires and found that one wire goes to ground when the switch is depressed, so I'm assuming that I will need to use an output from the alarm to ground this wire so the car will start.

Is the proper wire to ground the clutch switch the blue pin 5 wire from the remote start aux harness ((-) 200mA STATUS OUTPUT)? If so, do I need to use this wire to drive a relay or can I connect it directly to the clutch switch wire?

ssbowtie1 wrote:

Is the proper wire to ground the clutch switch the blue pin 5 wire from the remote start aux harness ((-) 200mA STATUS OUTPUT)? If so, do I need to use this wire to drive a relay or can I connect it directly to the clutch switch wire?

status output will have the clutch bypassed until the starter is turned off completely. If you connected the 200ma starter output (violet I believe) it will only bypass the clutch when physically starting the car. And the best way is to wire up a relay for it, but I've seen some get away with hooking directly to the wire.

x1le]s wrote:

atus output will have the clutch bypassed until the starter is turned off completely. If you connected the 200ma starter output (violet I believe) it will only bypass the clutch when physically starting the car. And the best way is to wire up a relay for it, but I've seen some get away with hooking directly to the wire.

Yes, use pin 3 (violet wire, 200mA negative starter output) of the 5-pin remote start aux output harness to the wire going from the clutch interlock switch to the starter cutout relay coil. I wired it directly with no relay. Be sure you connect it to the correct switch on the clutch. Most clutches have two switches: one for starter cutout (this is the one you want) and one for cruise control cutout(don't want this one).

Thanks for the heads up joebubba you were right about that. I was using the wrong switch. When I tried looking at the clutch safety switch it seems like its just two wires that complete a circuit when the clutch is pressed in. Taking either wire to ground didn't do anything.

Can I get any tips on how I should use the violet wire remote start output wire to connect these two wires together when cranking?

You would just need to take it the dead side of the switch...So during cranking it see's ground...It doesnt need both sides as one side has ground all the time...And when switch is pressed...passes ground through...So you would need to attach it to the side that is only active during the press...

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M.E.C.P & First-Class
Go slow and drink lots of water...Procrastinators' Unite...Tomorrow!

Oh ok I get it. So to find the proper wire I'll take each wire to ground individually and see which one starts the car. Thanks!

No, just grounding the wire won't start the car. Grounding the wire energizes the coil on the starter cutout relay which then closes the starter circuit allowing the car to be started once the key is turned.

You want to connect the violet wire to the wire coming from the switch that doesn't show a ground (clutch is not depressed).

So just test both wires at the switch for ground and connect the violet wire to the one without a ground.

Thanks joe what I meant to say was I was going to ground each wire and try to start the car without pressing the clutch to know which wire I need to ground.

Ok here's what I've found.

I was wondering why the wires running to the clutch safety switch were so thick and now I know. It turns out that the switch allows +12V to pass through the switch. In fact one of the wires is yellow, which is the same color as the starter wires. It is also 10-12 gauge, the same as the stater wires. I wasn't able to trace the wires, but I think the yellow wire running to the clutch switch is the starter wire.

So I guess I would need to switch to a +12V and apply that to the brown wire, which gets +12V when the clutch switch is pressed. I'm assuming I would use the same violet wire but switch it using a relay. Should I wire the relay using a 10-12gauge wire though when I splice it into the switch wire? Also should I use a diode to protect the relay when cranking without the remote start?

Hmmm. I'm not familiar with the details of your car. I'd have to have a better knowledge of the exact nature of the clutch cutout switch circuitry and wiring to be sure, but it sounds like the clutch switch provides a direct, high current cutout to the starter circuit. If that's the case, then you could use the same wire from the RS (violet) to the coil of a relay to provide a positive feed to the brown wire. You'll need to use a high current relay (30A) which should already have the appropriate gauge wire (you can buy a 30-40A relay at BB for $10, just go to the back and talk to the install guys).

Instead of the above, I believe you could also use either the pink/white wire or the orange wire from the H3 harness connected directly to the brown wire coming from the switch. (Again, assumes the clutch cutout circuit is a high current positive circuit).

Here's a diagram of the clutch wiring:

https://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k28/spudboy2008/cluchsaftyswitch.gif

and here's a picture for reference:

https://i45.tinypic.com/2uhnu4x.jpg

joe, regarding using the pink/white or orange wire from the h3 harness, I have the orange wire connected to my acessory wire. an dmy pink/white wire is connected to the ignition 2 wire. Are you saying I could splice a wire from either of those wires directly to the brown clutch wire? If so is one better than than the other due to carrying less current,etc? Or should I just play it safe and run the relay although it will add alot more clutter.

ssbowtie1 wrote:

joe, regarding using the pink/white or orange wire from the h3 harness, I have the orange wire connected to my acessory wire. an dmy pink/white wire is connected to the ignition 2 wire. Are you saying I could splice a wire from either of those wires directly to the brown clutch wire? If so is one better than than the other due to carrying less current,etc? Or should I just play it safe and run the relay although it will add alot more clutter.

I'm not certain, but I don't believe it makes any difference if you use the orange or pink/white wire (and yes, just splice an extra wire). They both supply a Pos(+) current before the RS sends power to the starter. Maybe someone else with more experience might know if it makes any difference.

Well if no one has objections I'll try to splice the ignition 2 wire tomorrow and report back results.

I got the alarm portion rewired today but I noticed something odd. If I arm the car with a door open, the remote tells me that the trunk is open and a door is open. However if I arm the car while the trunk is open, I don't get any messages that the trunk is open.

I have the neg door trigger hooked up to H1/8 green and the neg trunk trigger hooked up to H1/7 blue.

One thought before attempting to splice into the pink/white or orange r/s wires. Since these wires are already spliced into the ignition 2 and acc. wires, doesn't that mean that if I use one of these wires as a clutch bypass that it will always bypass the clutch since there is no diode separating the ignition and acc. wires from the pink/white or orange wires?

Thanks guys this is one of my last wires left to connect.

Duh, you're right. Probably best to use the relay as described earlier.

Thanks joe for your help.

I've been thinking, since the starter signal is what goes through the clutch switch, maybe its best not to just energize it with 12V. I think one option is to splice the green and violet H3 wires after the clutch switch and reconnect the starter wire that I originally cut.

Since I already cut and spliced these wires, I'd rather not do that again. So if there are any relay gurus, is there a way to splice a relay to the wires going to the clutch switch and using the aux - signal from the r/s , have the relay connect the two wires, essentially bypassing the switch. Then when aux signal is off, have the wires connected back to themselves so I can start the car normally using the clutch switch?

Well, I'm not sure what you interpret "starter signal" to be, but the clutch circuit only sends a pos(+) current (amperage unknown but assumed to be 30A) to the coil of the starter cutout relay (theft deterrent relay). This energizes the coil and closes the relay contacts to allow current to flow to the starter. (I also assume the A1 (yellow/black) wire going to the other side of the coil is a neg (-) current.)

Assuming this is all correct, here's what I would do:

Use a 30A relay. Wire 12V+ to terminal 85 and wire the violet wire (pin 3, 200mA negative starter output) of the 5-pin remote start aux output harness to terminal 86 (or vice versa, doesn't make a difference as long as there is no diode across the coil of the relay). Connect terminal 30 to the yellow clutch wire and terminal 87 to the brown clutch wire.

To the wire that energises when the clutch is depressed use a relay and wire like this

Pin 87and 86 - Ignition!

Pin 85- Negative starter trigger wire from unit!

Pin 30- to the wire that energises with the clutch depressed!

Simple!

Also mr joe, juding by the gauge of the wires in the pictue, i would say that clutch is completing a circuit, rather than energizing a relay, also, 30amps to energize a relay coil, highly unlikely!

Also, to standards, pin 86 on a relay is positive and pin 85- negative!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

t&t tech wrote:

Also mr joe, juding by the gauge of the wires in the pictue, i would say that clutch is completing a circuit, rather than energizing a relay, also, 30amps to energize a relay coil, highly unlikely!

Yeah, that's what you would think, but did you look at the diagram? It clearly shows the clutch wire coming from what appears to be a high current feed off of the starter switch and goes (via the clutch switch) to the coil of the anti-theft relay. I'm confused as to why it has such a high current feed going to a coil.

SSB,

T&T brings up a good point about standard connections across a relay coil. Most coils don't have a diode across them, but using the standard connections will ensure you don't run into any problems.

Thanks alot joe and t&t. I'm a bit confused now due to the conflicting opinions. Do you guys think either option will work?I do believe that there is a relay attached as I can hear it clicking on and off when I try to start the car.

Thanks guys worst case scenario I can just try both options.

Not sure what you mean by "both options". We're both saying the same thing. The only difference is the wiring of 85 and 86 is reversed (use the standard coil wiring as indicated by T&T).

joe, for example you are are using pin 30 to splice into the yellow clutch wire, while t&t did not reference that wire. Also you recommended using a +12V while t&t has me going to the ignition wires, but I'm guessing that doesn't matter since either way there will be 12V during cranking.

If you would care to explain how both of your explanations are the same, I'd love to hear it as I'm still learning. Either way I'll just go for t&t's wire combination which you both seem to agree on and will post up results and hopefully a short vid showing the remote start on the car if it works!

By the way I do still have the pending issue of if I leave the trunk open and arm the car I get a message saying I have the trunk open, but if I leave one of the doors open I get a message saying that the trunk and doors are open. If anyone has any ideas about that I'd appreciate it. I have the doors wired to the neg door trigger and the hatch to the neg hatch trigger.

Thanks again for all the help through my countless questions!

Oh damn, I missed that. I believe my suggestion for pin 87 and 30 is correct and T&T has it backwards.

Ok so just to be certain your recommendation is as follows:

85: violet wire for neg starter output

86: ignition

87: splice into brown clutch switch wire

30: splice into yellow clutch switch wire

I think I get your idea here. What you are saying is when the relay is energized with the neg starter output it will connect the brown and yellow wires, otherwise its business as usual.

As for t&t's recommendation, I'm a bit confused on that but would love an explanation if he wants to elaborate.

Yes, that's correct. And you can splice both 30 and 86 into the yellow wire.

This will give you current running to the coil which will be complete when the alarm sends it's neg signal via the violet wire. This will energize the coil and then the relay will close connecting terminal 30 (yellow wire) to terminal 87 (brown wire), the same action which happens when you push on the clutch.

Thank you joe will report results tomorrow!

Here's a crude diagram:

posted_image

joebubba wrote:

Oh damn, I missed that. I believe my suggestion for pin 87 and 30 is correct and T&T has it backwards.

Nope! That's the way i intended it! Why would you think i have i backwards?

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

It seems like both joe's relay setup and t&t do essentially the same thing which is complete the circuit between the ignition and the brown wire upon output of the neg trigger, so I guess both wiring suggestions are essentially the same.

Thanks joe for that diagram too! I will post results and hope this thread comes in handy later because when i searched I didn't find much info about doing this bypass.

Hmm picked up a Bosh 20/30A relay and harness from a local alarm install shop today and found something interesting:

Here's a pic of the relay and plug:

https://i50.tinypic.com/2guchup.jpg

https://i49.tinypic.com/34i4gut.jpg

The middle wire corresponds to 87a and the one at the bottom is 30. Left is 86 and right is 85. Should I depin the middle wire from 87a and plug it into the 87 plug or is this some kind of reverse relay that connects 87a and 30 when energized? Also the 20/30A is all the shop had, should I be ok with that?

Hmmm...That's a new one to me. I'd just splice to 87a instead of 87.

That will be fine! Since you are going to be using the NO circuit! You can depin the 87@ wire and slot it into pin 87! That relay is wired for the NC circuit which is mostly used in immobiliser circuit applications! When de energised 87@ and 30 are connected, when energised the connection breaks from 30 to 87! Also note the diode, so you must wire as per my instructions!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

Ok I'm back with new problems. I decided to just jump the clutch wires for now just to test the remote start. When I turn the car I press the valet button within 5 seconds and the led will not turn blue indicating that the tach signal is learned. I know I have the right tach signal and I have the remote programmed for tach signal in the remote start menu.

When you say "turn the car", you mean you started the car, correct? Did you press and HOLD the valet switch?
You could try switching the tach threshold jumper and see if that helps.
Are you absolutely certain that you have the correct tach source and are receiving the signal at the brain?

Do you have the toggle switch plugged in and in the "on" position?

Where have you taken the signal from? Did you test it with a meter?

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

Not sure what source you're using for tach signal. The tach source for a 1995 Firebird V8 is WHITE/ black at the coil or distributor (white for V6). Not sure if it's the same for a 1995 Trans Am:

1995 Firebird wiring diagram

Ok guys it works. I just have the clutch safety switch bypassed for now but the remote start seems to be working well. The only issue I'm having is for some reason I have to press the alarm neutral switch off then on each time before I can have the r/s be ready. Hang tight a vid is coming up!

ssbowtie1 wrote:

The only issue I'm having is for some reason I have to press the alarm neutral switch off then on each time before I can have the r/s be ready.

Could be due to the clutch being bypassed full time, not sure.

You do understand that each time you want to enable the MT mode you will have to perform the following steps starting with the engine running:
1. place gear in N
2. push and hold brake pedal while engaging e-brake.
3. release brake pedal.
4. push remote start button on remote within 15 seconds.
5. remote should play a tune.
6. turn key off (engine keeps running).
7. open door
8. close door
9. arm system (doors lock, car shuts off)
10. remote plays a tune, MT icon shows on remote.

You have the neutral safety switch input hooked up to your e-brake wire, correct?
And the e-brake wire rests at ground? (ground signal with the e-brake engaged?)

https://www.#.com/watch?v=XVZESDqN1tY

Will post results of the clutch bypass switch tomorrow.

the # is y o u t u b e not sure why it changed the link.

spaghetti!

haha just kiddin man. glad you got it workin. wasn't too bad, right?

In the video, I couldn't tell if you were engaging the e-brake while the brake pedal was depressed.

Also, probably a little late, but I found this link which might be informative:

alarm install for F-body

Hey guys so I tried to wire up the relay like previously mentioned and the remote start didn't work. So I disconnected the relay and the remote start seems to have stopped working.

I can manually start the car without any issues. I can also put it in Manual mode and I get verification that the r/s is in manual mode. Once I exit the car and close the door and lock the car, the car turns off as to be expected.

When I press the r/s button, I see the accessories turning on. Then I hear the relay clicking that would send power to the ignition wires, then everything turns off. It tries it again 2 times then the lights flash 5 times. The manual says 5 flashes could have to do with the Brake being on, but the brake is fine, plus if there was something wrong with the brake, the system wouldn't allow me to enter manual mode before exiting the car.

Off hand, I'm guessing you don't have the relay wired correctly. The system is receiving the remote start sequence from the remote and the accessory circuits are powering on as designed, but something is preventing the starter/starter circuit from engaging. I would agree with you that the brake wire and e-brake wires are connected properly.

You had a couple of problems earlier. Just to update us, can you answer these questions?

1. How did you do resolve the tach learn issue?

2. How did you resolve the previous issue you had when the clutch was byppassed? ("....for some reason I have to press the alarm neutral switch off then on each time before I can have the r/s be ready")

But my bet is that the relay is not wired correctly. I'd double check your relay wiring.

1. I had the wrong wire before. Found the right wire and it worked fine.

2. Not sure I've fixed this issue yet, but I have some good leads. I think it has to do with my e-brake light being on all the time. This is because I haven't bled my brakes yet and the proportioning valve is sensing an error.

I removed the relay and have just been trying to start the car the way I used to and its not working. I changed the remote start to auto mode, just so I don't have to deal with the shut down sequence until I fix the issue. I also tried other modes besides tach, such as virtual tach, voltage, and even tried turning the tach options to off.

Here's a vid I made. As you can see when the starter should be getting power, everything just dies. It tries again 2 times then I just get the error.

https://www.#.com/watch?v=sF3piKWQhOU

As usual the # is y o u t u b e

Could it be that the main module is dead?

ssbowtie1 wrote:

2. Not sure I've fixed this issue yet, but I have some good leads. I think it has to do with my e-brake light being on all the time. This is because I haven't bled my brakes yet and the proportioning valve is sensing an error.

So were you still having to sequence the toggle switch before you could enable MT mode?

joebubba wrote:

So were you still having to sequence the toggle switch before you could enable MT mode?

Yes but I do believe that once I bleed the brakes and the ebrake light is only engaged from the ebrake then that should fix the issue but I can't say for sure because I haven't tried it yet.

Well, the best thing would be to fix the known issue (having to cycle the toggle switch) before you start chasing a new one. They could be related or not.

Do you have a diagram of the e-brake circuit?

Confirm:

1. you've verified that the e-brake connection(wire going to the alarm) gives a negative signal when the e-brake is on and gives no signal when the e-brake is off?
2. you've verified that the brake wire to the alarm gives a positive signal when the brake is pressed?

joebubba wrote:

Well, the best thing would be to fix the known issue (having to cycle the toggle switch) before you start chasing a new one. They could be related or not.

Do you have a diagram of the e-brake circuit?

Confirm:

1. you've verified that the e-brake connection(wire going to the alarm) gives a negative signal when the e-brake is on and gives no signal when the e-brake is off?
2. you've verified that the brake wire to the alarm gives a positive signal when the brake is pressed?

Yes and Yes

In fact I just went outside and disconnected the proportioning valve plug and the ebrake light now only turns on when I pull the ebrake. I put the car in Manual mode and did not have to turn the neutral switch on then off to get the car in Manual mode. However once I leave the car and try to start I get the same problem as posted above.

Its interesting that once the relay that should energize the starter turns on, it seems like everything just dies as you can see in the vid. I'm starting to lean towards the brain being dead. All my connections are soldered, so there's no way anything worked loose and I just double checked them. Also the car starts just fine without the remote start :(

OK, now i'd go back and jump the clutch switch, then try a remote start again.

joebubba wrote:

OK, now i'd go back and jump the clutch switch, then try a remote start again.

That's what I've been doing. I completely removed the relay that I tried to wire up If you look closely in the vid, you'll see that I have the clutch switch jumped just like I did in the last vid when everything worked. Basically I have everything wired and jumped exactly like I did when I made the last vid that showed everything working.

Well, I'm stumped. Are all of your heavy guage wire connections soldered? Double check all connections, something has come loose or the brain has gone bad.

Are you back to MT mode with tach signal enabled?

joebubba wrote:

Well, I'm stumped. Are all of your heavy guage wire connections soldered? Double check all connections, something has come loose or the brain has gone bad.

Are you back to MT mode with tach signal enabled?

Yes and the MT procedure worked just fine. Foot on brake, ebrake up, foot off brake, press r/s button, turn off car, get out and lock. The car then turns off but when I try to start it back up it does the same thing as you see in the vid.

Every single connection was soldered. Heavy gauge wires and all. All connections are solid. Are Viper alarms known to go bad like this? I'll see if I can get a replacement brain and will report back with results.

They can go bad, but not very often. I really doubt that is the problem, but it could be. My bet is the clutch.

Are you absolutely certain that your clutch switch is properly bypassed? Have you tested the brown wire for a positive signal using a test light or DMM?

We can assume you have the correct wiring on the heavy gauge harness because it did RS at one point and nothing has been changed on that harness, correct?

If all connections were soldered the whole time and you've double checked to be sure they are still good, then I'm guessing that either the clutch is not correctly bypassed or the brain has gone bad.

My car did the exact same thing when I didn't have the clutch bypassed. I could enter MT mode, exit the car (or open and close the door), arm the system (car shuts down) and then try a restart. The accessories would come on, but no start.

Hook a DMM or test light up to the H3/ #4 (Violet) wire.

Try the RS. Do you get a positive signal coming from that wire at any time during the RS process? If not, then start the car with the key and check the green wire for a positive signal. If you have a signal on the green and none on the violet in the above tests, then the brain may be bad.

If there is a signal on the violet wire, then the starter cutout relay is blocking the start signal coming from the remote start (the coil is not being energized).

If there is a signal on the violet wire, then try the start again, but this time stay in the car (just open and close the door before arming). After the RS is armed, manually push in and hold the clutch, then try the RS.

This test should be valid whether or not the clutch is properly bypassed.

joebubba wrote:

Hook a DMM or test light up to the H3/ #4 (Violet) wire.

Try the RS. Do you get a positive signal coming from that wire at any time during the RS process? If not, then start the car with the key and check the green wire for a positive signal. If you have a signal on the green and none on the violet in the above tests, then the brain may be bad.

If there is a signal on the violet wire, then the starter cutout relay is blocking the start signal coming from the remote start (the coil is not being energized).

If there is a signal on the violet wire, then try the start again, but this time stay in the car (just open and close the door before arming). After the RS is armed, manually push in and hold the clutch, then try the RS.

This test should be valid whether or not the clutch is properly bypassed.

I hooked up a DMM to the splice where the violet wire and the starter wire that goes to the starter connect. When I manually start the car, I see 12V there. When I try to r/s the car, I never get 12V there. I'm guessing the car turns off before that happens.

I'll check the green wire tomorrow.

This has gotten me thinking...since everything worked fine then everything stopped working after I tried to hook up a relay to the clutch switch, is it possible that the violet starter output that I used to turn on the relay somehow saw 12V from the starter output and led to a short which fried the brain?

I hooked up the wires the same way t&t and joe listed. I had:

86 and 87 spliced into each other and both wires connected to the yellow clutch wire.

85 was the purple neg starter output

30 was the brown clutch wire

86 and 30 were opposite from what joe told me but I doubt that would have caused any issues since 86 and 30 should be interchangeable.

Can a relay be bad and cause current to flow to pin 85?

ssbowtie1 wrote:

....is it possible that the violet starter output that I used to turn on the relay .....

....85 was the purple neg starter output

Just to clarify: The wire going from the alarm to the relay should be the THIN violet wire (pin #3) from the 5-pin Remote Start Auxiliary Output harness (small gauge wires). Probably just a matter of wording, but you say purple in one line and violet in another.

Did you try to remote start while sitting in the car pushing in the clutch?

And no, highly unlikely the relay was damaged.

ssbowtie1 wrote:

...I hooked up a DMM to the splice where the violet wire and the starter wire that goes to the starter connect. When I manually start the car, I see 12V there. When I try to r/s the car, I never get 12V there. I'm guessing the car turns off before that happens.

I'll check the green wire tomorrow.

No need to check the green wire if the car is starting with the key (sorry, wasn't thinking).

If you're not getting power coming from the H3/ #4 violet wire during the remote start but the accessories are powered during the RS, then it sounds to me like there is a problem with the brain.

I know I'm stating the obvious here, but I haven't seen it mentioned in your posts. Have you checked the fuses in the 12 volt heavy H3 harness? One of those goes to the crank relay in the Viper. If it was blown no crank would occur in RS.

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joebubba wrote:

Just to clarify: The wire going from the alarm to the relay should be the THIN violet wire (pin #3) from the 5-pin Remote Start Auxiliary Output harness (small gauge wires). Probably just a matter of wording, but you say purple in one line and violet in another.

Funny you mention that wire because in the install manual its referred to as a violet wire but in the quickstart guide that comes with the alarm its referred to as a purple wire. Yes though, this is pin #3 in the install manual and I believe pin #13 of the 18 pin harness on the alarm.

Also, I am essentially starting the car with the clutch in. What I've done is taken a piece of electrical tape and wrapped it around the switch so its always pressed. That's how I've performed all of my testing before when the r/s used to work.

monty, I checked all of the fuses and they all seemed fine. I even pulled them out just to be sure nothing was blown and they all looked fine.

[QUOTE=ssbowtie1][QUOTE=joebubba] Hook a DMM or test light up to the H3/ #4 (Violet) wire.

I hooked up a DMM to the splice where the violet wire and the starter wire that goes to the starter connect. When I manually start the car, I see 12V there. When I try to r/s the car, I never get 12V there. I'm guessing the car turns off before that happens. Have you checked the RED / black H3/9 wire with a meter for constant 12 volts. I'd check it at the Viper connection.

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ssbowtie1 wrote:

...Also, I am essentially starting the car with the clutch in. What I've done is taken a piece of electrical tape and wrapped it around the switch so its always pressed. That's how I've performed all of my testing before when the r/s used to work....

Well, again, I'm just an amateur, but please don't fall into this trap and assume that just because the switch is depressed you have current going to the brown wire.

You need to actually test the brown wire for current, not assume that because you have the switch depressed all is good. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not criticizing. I'd also point out that earlier you said you were certain that the tach wire was connected properly and as it turns out it wasn't. Trust me, I've been there, done that, and been red in the face because I'm assumed I had it right, rather than testing the connection.

I still don't think that your current problem is the clutch switch. As long as you don't have power coming from H3/#4 during the remote start sequence, there is something else besides the clutch switch causing the problem.

To ssbowtie 86 and 30 on a relay are not interchangeable! 30 and 87 are! 85 and 86 are once there's no supressing diode present! Not 86 and 30!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

Now if you are not getting output from the viloet during R/S sequence something else is wrong! Check your nss wire, brake wire and your hood switch connections, control modules rarely go bad without cause! Take a meter and verify do not assume! Then post back! Re-run all programming procedures to ensure all settings are the same!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

Well guys after much frustration I'm going to have to throw the towel in.

I warrantied out the alarm and got another brain. I hooked everything back up and manually bypassed the clutch safety switch and everything worked fine as before.

So instead of bypassing the clutch by using a relay as mentioned earlier, I decided to just run the green and violet H3 wires after the clutch safety switch.

Here's the diagram for reference:

posted_image

I cut the brown wire and connected the green wire to the key side and the violet wire to the starter side.

To my dismay, suddenly the same problem I had earlier returned. The car would go through the remote start sequence but completely die when it came time to crank the starter. Exactly as shown in the video a few posts back.

So I concluded that somehow my alarm brain is getting fried, since the new one worked when manually bypassing the clutch switch, but suddenly stopped working after trying to wire the clutch switch bypass.

Anyway thanks everyone for the help, its just so frustrating to have something not work without having any idea as to why it is.

Sorry to hear about your dilemma. Hard to believe someone hasn't done this vehicle before and can tell you exactly how to wire it. I'm waiting on a part myself to finish my 5901 install. Door triggers is what gave me fits. Finally found out I needed a module. Did you try it again, wired the first way? Was it still non functional? Might not have Fried it. Maybe someone who has done this vehicle will see this new post. Good luck.

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ssbowtie1 wrote:

So instead of bypassing the clutch by using a relay as mentioned earlier, I decided to just run the green and violet H3 wires after the clutch safety switch.....I cut the brown wire and connected the green wire to the key side and the violet wire to the starter side. ....

No! That is doing nothing for you other than closing the relay when the RS sequence is activated. The violet wire is supposed to provide + to the starter circuit to turn the starter. Instead, it's supplying + to the coil of the relay which does nothing other than close the relay The car will never start this way.

Did you reference that link I gave you where the guy did a RS in an F-body?

joebubba wrote:

ssbowtie1 wrote:

So instead of bypassing the clutch by using a relay as mentioned earlier, I decided to just run the green and violet H3 wires after the clutch safety switch.....I cut the brown wire and connected the green wire to the key side and the violet wire to the starter side. ....

No! That is doing nothing for you other than closing the relay when the RS sequence is activated. The violet wire is supposed to provide + to the starter circuit to turn the starter. Instead, it's supplying + to the coil of the relay which does nothing other than close the relay The car will never start this way.

Did you reference that link I gave you where the guy did a RS in an F-body?

You're right joe, I realized that after I looked at the diagram further. The yellow wire is split into two, one going to the clutch switch and the other to the starter. However, once I tried reconnecting everything back the way I had it and manually bypassing the clutch, the remote start started acting like it did before.

The thing that is frustrating is why the brain seems to die after trying to bypass the clutch. I was just afraid to hook up the relay again and have it fry the brain, but it looks like that was taken care of already lol.

Yes I did see your link by the way. In fact, I used that link as reference before. His car is a 96 with a BCM, but its the same general concept. Unfortunately, he never hooked up a remote start though, just did the alarm wiring.

Are you sure the first brain was fried? I mean, did they test it after you returned it? Or are you just guessing?

I assume you did a successful tach learn on the new brain? And you set menu item 3-2 to option 4?

Well I'm assuming it was fried since when I got the new one, it worked fine until I tried bypassing the clutch again.

First thing I did was pair the remote to the new brain, then tach learn, then made sure I was on the tach option as you stated.

I was thinking about giving Viper a call, but I'm guessing they won't talk to me since I'm not an authorized installer.

Oh and thanks monty, hope your alarm install finishes up well.

Try setting it on automatic transmission and check the violet wire with a dmm during the crank sequence. See if it goes to 12 volts. If it does it probably isn't fried.

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Ok guys somewhat of an update.

I think I burnt out the violet -200mA starter output wire.

Here's how I wired the relay:

86 & 87 go to the yellow clutch switch wire which has constant 12V

30 to the brown clutch switch wire.

85 to the violet - starter output.

Obviously it didn't work so I tried to start the car with the key. I noticed a funny noise was coming from the main unit. I turned the car off and disconnected the violet wire and the sound went away. I put a DIMM on pin 85 and it had const 12V??

Now I thought I had an understanding of relays here but shouldn't pin 85 never see any voltage unless from the violet wire? I wired my trunk release the same way and it works fine, so I don't understand what's going on here? Just to be safe I cut the external diode that was connecting pint 85 and pin 87 and I was still having the same issue.

You had a diode across pins 85 and 87? it's supposed to be 85 and 86, band towards86! If there is no diode present you will get voltage on 85 as it will feed across the coil!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

Sorry I mean between 86 and 85 but the band was facing 86.

The middle wire corresponds to 87a and the one at the bottom is 30. Left is 86 and right is 85.

posted_image

That was the old picture I've since moved the middle wire to pin 87 which is on the top. I cut the diode but I was still seeing 12V even when it was connected. Also, shouldn't the relay have an internal diode?

Why did you eliminate it? That relay has no wire on pin 87!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

t&t tech wrote:

Why did you eliminate it? That relay has no wire on pin 87!

Sorry check the last sentence in my previous post. I edited it with more info.

No the diode is external in this case!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

If I take pin 85 and put it to ground, I can hear the relay working. However, when I hook it up to the -200mA starter wire it doesn't work and if I manually start the car I hear the main module making a weird vibrating noise until I disconnect the -200mA starter wire from the relay setup.

I also used another relay I had laying around that shows the picture of a diode on the diagram, so I'm assuming it has a diode and I'm still seeing 12V at pin 85. I'm guessing its normal to see 12V at pin 85 until you take it to ground? It just seems like when I hook up the purple wire its just constantly supplying that wire with 12V which is damaging the unit.

Why not put a one amp diode inline on the purple wire! Band towards the alarm!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5

I just checked the voltage on the purple and green starter wires and for some reason they have a constant 12V output even when the car is off and the remote start is not activated. This makes my car turn on just by having the key is in the ignition. For some reason no matter what I do there is a constant 12V on those wires.