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fused 12 volt connections?

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=121281
Printed Date: April 27, 2024 at 3:03 PM


Topic: fused 12 volt connections?

Posted By: hawks
Subject: fused 12 volt connections?
Date Posted: April 11, 2010 at 2:53 PM

I have a basic question I wanted to hear some opinions on from the pros here.

When connecting a relay or low drawing sensor or something along those lines is it okay to tap into a power source (that is already fused) powering another part of your system say like the headlight switch, door locks, window switches or something along those lines.  And, if it is okay would you need to use a fuse where you have spliced into the power source even though it is already fused at it's main power connection.  For example tapping into the power in the door lock wiring to power door lock relays or the headlight switch to power domelight supervision or window wiring to power window modules etc..

Or, should you fuse and run wires to the battery for every relay and sensor seperatley?

Rod




Replies:

Posted By: t&t tech
Date Posted: April 11, 2010 at 4:39 PM

Whenever I add a conection to an oem wire i always fuse it at a lower rating than the oem circuit! The only way I would not fuse an added on component is when i'm replacing the factory unit completely, Example a oem power power lock module that went bad, i would remove the old one entirely but i would re-use all oem connections that would have been fused for that specific circuit, so no need to  be redundant, simply because the new circuit would be replicating the old defective one!



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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 11, 2010 at 4:45 PM
Use an un-fused cable such as the fuse box power supply or an ignition feed constant if this isn't fused at the battery. ALWAYS separately fuse whatever you're supplying.




Posted By: hawks
Date Posted: April 11, 2010 at 5:34 PM

So you would fuse even remote start power connections where you tap into vehicle wiring because I could swear that I saw a post on here some where that said not to fuse those connections.





Posted By: t&t tech
Date Posted: April 11, 2010 at 6:01 PM
Nope! I don't fuse these! I use my discretion! You'll have to use yours also!

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COMMIT YOUR WAY TO JEHOVAH AND HE WILL ACT IN YOUR BEHALF. PSALMS 37:5




Posted By: hawks
Date Posted: April 12, 2010 at 12:52 AM

I have to ask because I am now curious.  Why would you fuse other tapped power connections but not the remote starter tapped power connection.





Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: April 12, 2010 at 2:15 AM
Damn! I wanted to provide a response not covered, but T&T did (but not in his first reply... not that I'm scoring...).

It hinges on your:
hawks] wrote:

hen connecting a relay or low drawing sensor or....
There is often no need nor reason to fuse such loads because either they draw too little current anyhow, else by their nature, for them to go "hi current" means they have already failed.

Such loads include hi-impedance loads such as (many) sensors or meters, voltmeters etc.

So hence the only fusing applicable is for its cable protection.
EG - of running off a 1mA meter off 10A "meter" fuse, run a 10A cable to the meter.
However, since this if often undesirable, use (say) a 5mA fuse and a 5mA cable....
But since this is often impractical or plain stupid, or simply unreliable (extra fuse contacts etc), use a resistor in place of the fuse.

(EG - a sensor's series resistor could be 100x its load resistance for a 1% reading error. The resistor's size needs to be V**2/R - eg, 15x15/R assuming a 15V short circuit at the sensor end. I use 16V else 15V as a max 12 Volt system voltage.)




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 12, 2010 at 3:55 AM
The ONLY time you wouldn't fuse is 1) remote start feeds (not the 5amp line) to ignition where the ignition constant(s) are fuse protected, e.g. Honda, some Toyotas etc. 2) Tapping hazards for Euro cars, (we use amber indicators instead of lights, also OZ Oldspark), source from constant to haz switch, lastly, type A pos locking systems where there is a factory actuator power feed in the same loom, e.g. VW Golf/Jetta Mk lll.




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: April 12, 2010 at 6:11 AM
And as per my reply?

Or are we clashing.... dear buddy Howie.....??

(I did omit non-fusing of self-fusing circuits - eg, when taking THIN wires off the battery etc....)




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: April 12, 2010 at 12:48 PM

I have a slightly different way of looking at this, but it involved knowledge and not "playing it safe".

If, say, you need power behind a door for a window module and the stock window power wire is sufficient in size and current, I would NOT fuse the window module in the door.  The last thing you want is to have to pull the door panel off to replace a fuse, when it would be much easier to replace the window fuse in the OEM fuse box if something were to happen.  Now, as a general rule of thumb when doing this, it is imperative that NO vital circuit is tapped (ie headlights, tail lights, ignition, etc).  You can use ACC circuits like windows, door locks, radio, etc, but nothing that, if the OEM fuse would blow, would leave the car unsafe or unable to operate.

A common place to do this is on RF changers (do people still insall those?).  They would always come with their own fuse and we would always connect their 12v and switched wires to the OEM wires behind the radio.  We would always cut the fuses off because the OEM fuses were sufficent and easy to access.

The remote starts we installed came with fuses inline to the power wires and I NEVER removed the fuses.  If something happened to the remote start wiring you wouldn't want to rely on the OEM fuses, because if they blew the car wouldn't operate, and that would be bad!



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Kevin Pierson




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: April 12, 2010 at 5:41 PM
That's what I call load fusing at the source - typically used in voltage critical situations, therefore minimal fuse or breaker voltage drop is desired (and zero-resistance sensors/breakers are too expensive etc).
Hence the load fuse is places at the source despite a heavier cable that may reduce several times before the load.

That allows for the convenient fuse location though not specifically stated. (I take it as obvious NOT to place protection in inaccessible areas - that includes going thru battery rooms for UPS etc to get to the UPS & battery breakers LOL!)


If it doesn't already exist somewhere, this sounds like a good Master-Reference topic so that we needn't rehash and requalify...
Written by some gifted presenter after we thrash out the guts & examples....




Posted By: hawks
Date Posted: April 13, 2010 at 12:40 AM

Many diffrent opinions and some great answers.  Now let me tell you one of the reasons I asked this question.  I am laying out my alarm install and I have installed a domelight supervision relay and a tilt sensor on a flat spot behind the dash bezel.  Lots of room, easy to get to and close to the wiring I need to tie into.  I noticed that the power wire supplying the light switch is 10AWG so I was thinking that it probably carries more than enough power to handle a tilt sensor with a 1 amp inline fuse and the domelight supervision relay without any problem.  I also don't think that it would cause any problems with the lights since the domelight supervision only operates when arming/disarming and shuts off on ignition and the tilt sensor probably draws so little it dosen't matter.  Good or bad idea?





Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: April 13, 2010 at 2:09 AM
Out of curiosity, when you say "domelight supervision", do you mean switch monitor (which I like) as opposed to voltage drop sensing (which I hate)?

I won't repeat my answer(s) - especially since there is insufficient topology info....




Posted By: hawks
Date Posted: April 13, 2010 at 9:33 AM
I mean power the relay that triggers/switches on the domelight supervision feature on the alarm.




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: April 13, 2010 at 10:14 AM
I, personally, would run a 12vdc wire from the alarm to the relay and tilt sensor.  You are already running wires from the brain to the sensor / relay so adding one more shouldn't be an issue.  I would probably add a 3A inline fuse to the line just in case something happens to the wiring between the alarm and the sensor / relay.  If I added a fuse I would tap the power wire BEFORE the fuse, if I didn't add a fuse I would tap it after the alarms fuse.

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Kevin Pierson





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