trying to find reason for small fire
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=121397
Printed Date: April 26, 2024 at 12:19 AM
Topic: trying to find reason for small fire
Posted By: r1_pilot
Subject: trying to find reason for small fire
Date Posted: April 17, 2010 at 9:13 PM
Car:2006 Honda S2000
Alarm: Clifford G5 Avantguard 5.1 I was poined to this forum and therefore new here. Earlier last month I had a small fire in my car and after finding the source I am trying to not only fix the problem, but also want to eliminate the source of the problem. Some background: I had this alarm installed by a Clifford approved installer that came with plenty of rec's from S2000 owners. Ever since the alarm was installed in 2008, I've had problems. The car sometimes would loose complete power and shut down while driving, sometimes would not start. It would happen at random, but more often when raining. Fast fwd to last month, we had a very hard downpour in south Florida. I was driving to work and the car shut-down at a light. I tapped the wires under the dash, and the car came back to life. About a mile after, I started smelling burning wires. I was about 1 mile from work, so I rushed and made it there. After that the car was towed to my house. I traced the burning back to two black wires that are spliced into the ignition wire (at least I believe thats what that is). Its a BLACK / YELLOW trace wire going to the ignition switch. The alarm install is a mess, and I want to clean it up myself rather than take it back as I lost trust on this installer. But before I redo this, I would like to eliminate the source rather than patch it up. Here are some pictures: 
And these are the type of butt connectors I was planning on using. They are Molex with glue and they shrink when heated: 
Its it acceptable to use butt connectors, or am I better off soldering? I think it would be quite a feat to solder this with the tight space in the S2000 under the dash. Also, here are my thoughts on how this started: - Installer spliced the loom with a razor and damaged the wire insulation.
- Used butt connectors and did not insulate properly
- I find this part difficult to believe, but somehow water got under the dash due to the rain and shorted the badly insulated wires.
- Burning started.
I would appreciate any input on this. Thanks, J
Replies:
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: April 17, 2010 at 9:15 PM
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: April 17, 2010 at 9:17 PM
Just copy paste those links into your browser and they will show up. J
Posted By: i am an idiot
Date Posted: April 17, 2010 at 9:45 PM
The BLACK / YELLOW wire is the ignition lead from the key. The ony reason I can see that they cut that wire was for the starter kill. Since your car has a manual transmission, cutting the ignition wire and installing Ignition kill instead of starter kill. Chances are they used wire that was too small to handle the current of the ignition circuit. I am not in favor of cutting ignition wires. If you insist on keeping it an Ignition kill, use larger wire, and maybe solder the connections. 
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: April 17, 2010 at 10:08 PM
You are correct, the factory wire is much thicker than the one the one that comes/goes to the brain. It looks like its a Clifford wire. They basically cut the wire and now that wire goes through the alarm brain ... I am going to rewire the Clifford part using thicker wire. Will try to give a shot at soldering this thing. Does soldering provide a better connection or is it better overall to a butt connector? Thanks, J
Posted By: i am an idiot
Date Posted: April 17, 2010 at 10:31 PM
Soldering will make a better connection than the butt connector. For the ultimate connection, you may want to cut the insulation off of a butt connector, strip and tin the wire, insert it in the butt connector and crimp it. Then do the same with the other wire, then heat up the butt connector and apply some more solder into the connector. Do not forget to put the heat shrink over the wire before you crimp the second wire into the connector.
Posted By: lowpriceaudio
Date Posted: April 18, 2010 at 2:30 AM
For one I dont see why they would split a ignition wire and run it into the brain. Normally the brain has starter kill built in and they split the starter wire so the vehicle will not start when the alarm is armed. Second, The water getting to the connectors is probably a boot on the firewall removed and not reinstalled properly or at all which allows water to run down the engine harness wiring under the column. Anyway if you want to do it right factory approved strip back the wire one inch flat wrap and twist wire back together , Solder and Heat Shrink to Complete. ------------- eric
Posted By: i am an idiot
Date Posted: April 18, 2010 at 6:06 AM
They cut the ignition wire because his vehicle has a manual transmission. For maximum security, Ignition kill is the only way you can keep them from stealing the car. From a safety and reliability standpoint, there can be problems. I guess that the next time I hear of a dealership wanting to charge someone 1200 dollars to replace a wiring harness, i should point out the factory approved repair method.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 18, 2010 at 6:55 AM
The first though is WTH is this alarm doing in the US? It's English market only, actually it's a dealer fit only and we are trying to trace the source, there seem to be a lot of UK guys having problems with this alarm because they are trying to install themselves. It's a dealer or contractor like me known to DEI install only. Incidentally we are mandated to solder those wires. Ours come with a large plug containing both Ignition (BLACK / YELLOW on Hondas) and Starter cuts (BLACK/ white) again mandatory, in fact they are sided the ignition key side is also the ignition sense wire. Looking at the photos it looks like there was too much current flowing through those crimped butt connectors. The BLACK / YELLOW ignition join is the one causing the problems. If I can cut and post I'll show how it should be done
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 18, 2010 at 6:59 AM
Failed, sorry another thing I've noticed recently with this particular unit, I've installed 5 in the last month is that the ignition relay is failing! I've seen similar burn marks on the Clifford factory plug!
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 18, 2010 at 10:35 AM
Sorry, mistake, 5.1 is the US version, 5.5 is the UK version, overall the same product, my other comments about relay failure still stand.
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: April 18, 2010 at 6:24 PM
The harness is $350 from Honda, the whole dash has to be removed. Right now I am on the fence as to whether I reinstall the alarm or just swap the harness for a brand new one. If you look at the last picture, everything is removed from the car in order to remove the dashboard. J i am an idiot wrote:
I guess that the next time I hear of a dealership wanting to charge someone 1200 dollars to replace a wiring harness, i should point out the factory approved repair method.
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: April 18, 2010 at 6:30 PM
howie ll wrote:
Sorry, mistake, 5.1 is the US version, 5.5 is the UK version, overall the same product, my other comments about relay failure still stand.
Howie II, The alarm was installed by a DEI dealer/approved installer. He was highly reccomended, even though now I doubt he did much of a good job.
If you can send those instruction to me via email, I would really appreciate it. r1pilot@gmail.com is my email. Do you think swapping the wire to a thicker gauge would help? I too think there was excessive current going through there. The funny thing is that the connector melted before the wire. I guess the connector's insulation melts at a lower temperature than the wire insulation ... I have to drive this car 6000 miles to California and back and would hate for this problem to crop up in the middle of the trip. Thats why I really want to get to the bottom of it, or else swap the harness and just get rid of the alarm altogether.
Thanks, J
Posted By: i am an idiot
Date Posted: April 18, 2010 at 7:10 PM
There is no way that harness needs to be replaced. That comment was directed at the factory approved method of repairing the harness. Trust me, if you solder it in the method I suggested, and use proper size wire, there is no way you will have any trouble with it. The small wire was your problem.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 19, 2010 at 2:43 AM
All you need to do is to remove those butt connectors, solder and sleeve those wires together. The black wires on the on the UK version are 2mm+ = 10-12 gauge, more than adequate. Remember on the UK Cat 1 versions I'm doing starter and ignition virtually every time* and as I showed Mr I. in an email, I always use that method and never had any problems. Those wires are rated at a constant 30 amps EACH, your ignition switch gets a 50amp fuse to handle EVERYTHING. If those butts weren't crimped with a proper crimp tool i.e. ratchet action in excess of about $70 to buy, the movement and vibration would cause arcing etc. Strip the looms and look for any shorting across the cables. A loose sliver of wire can do the damage.
* On UK Focus BMW and some others cutting the ignition also kills the starter so I only cut the ignition. As I said before I've had problems with the internal relays also causing the arcing effects but that shows up at the AG's white plastic junction box, not the ignition lead joins if done correctly.
Posted By: Velocity Motors
Date Posted: April 19, 2010 at 7:43 AM
My suggestion would be to remove the system completely, re-install another system, solder your conncections and if your wanting to reinstall the ignition kill, install it in a location that is easily accessible by you but still having it very well hidden.
-------------
Jeff
Velocity Custom Home Theater
Mobile Audio/Video Specialist
Morden, Manitoba CANADA
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: April 19, 2010 at 8:29 AM
The fact that you can be driving down the road and suddenly lose ignition power points to a loose connection (poor crimp). Loose connections create resistance, resistance creates heat. If you are connecting large high current wires in a vehicle environment the splice should be properly soldered. Crimp connections have two weaknesses - vibration and corrosion. As Howie said as well if the installer wasn't using the right crimp tool there is a good chance of a failure. I would simply cut out the crimps, solder them, then keep an eye on the wiring and monitor it to see if it gets warm at all. If it does, the wire size is too small. ------------- Kevin Pierson
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: May 19, 2010 at 11:15 AM
After a whole month, I finally finished the installation. I do not have much time to spend on the car and I wanted to do this right. I wish you guys would have seen this installation ... I am amazed at how some people go through life having such low standards regarding their work ethic.
Anyways, everything but the siren works. I checked the connections and they are all fine. My only concern is that in order to feed the wire through the firewall grommet, I cut it and then soldered back together inside of the car. Did I screw up when I cut the wires? I know the connections are fine, but I am not sure whether by cutting the wires I somehow rendered the siren useless. Maybe the added resistance due to solder?
This is an avantguard 5.1 G5 installed in an S2000.
Thanks for the input.
J
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: May 19, 2010 at 11:54 AM
Not that, if it has the back up battery Siren 4 wire lead like the UK 5.5, I cut the lead all the time to shorten it!
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: May 19, 2010 at 12:09 PM
Yes, it has the 4 wire siren with the battery backup.
I will check continuity again. Thanks,
J
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: May 20, 2010 at 1:30 AM
Questions:-
1) Does the siren NOT chirp on arm disarm but sound on alarm trigger?
2) Or not at all?
If 1) Siren's internal batteries have failed, replace the siren or the batteries, except by the time you've found a replacement (rechargeable) battery pack, it costs out cheaper to replace the siren. Been there!
If 2) There should be a 2amp fuse on the feed from the alarm to the Siren, adjacent to the alarm unit. Make sure it's intact.
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: May 20, 2010 at 7:11 AM
The siren does not sound at all. It was working a month ago.
The plugs are all tight, the fuse is good. The only thing I am not 100% sure I did correctly is that there is another plug between the plug that goes into the brain and the fuse. This second plug was left without being plugged into anything as I could not find where it went.
I can see the parking lights flash on arm/disarm and the LED. If I hit the car the factory horn beeps.
Also one more question, the sensor that plugs into the MUX outlet. It was on the floor under the carpet by the seat. I need to relocate it as the wire is not too long. Is there a specific way it has to be mounted?
Thanks for all the help.
J
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: May 20, 2010 at 8:32 AM
If it's a white Y plug with a male and female, the male plugs into the alarm CPU. same end as the antenna but opposite side, rust coloured siren plug to first port, next one in(Also marked As Wizz net port). Female connector goes to Intellistart.
Posted By: dswift
Date Posted: May 20, 2010 at 4:25 PM
*ahem*
Pop pop that Clutch!!! haha
lowpriceaudio wrote:
For one I dont see why they would split a ignition wire and run it into the brain. Normally the brain has starter kill built in and they split the starter wire so the vehicle will not start when the alarm is armed. Second, The water getting to the connectors is probably a boot on the firewall removed and not reinstalled properly or at all which allows water to run down the engine harness wiring under the column. Anyway if you want to do it right factory approved strip back the wire one inch flat wrap and twist wire back together , Solder and Heat Shrink to Complete.
------------- "dont ground out!"
Posted By: r1_pilot
Date Posted: May 22, 2010 at 6:35 PM
I feel like a moron, but after about checking and rechecking everything, it seems that the siren wire got disconnected from the brain. Siren problem fixed. Does anyone know what that sensor that plugs into the MUX outlet is all about? Is it a shock sensor and does it matter how and where it is mounted? Thanks for all the help, J
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