car cranks but no start after alarm setup
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=124606
Printed Date: May 10, 2024 at 1:37 PM
Topic: car cranks but no start after alarm setup
Posted By: marlonism
Subject: car cranks but no start after alarm setup
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 3:00 PM
I had someone from craigslist install a Viper 5701 (with remote start) on my 2000 Xterra last Saturday. It originally had an Audiovox 9232 alarm (basic security) which he had to rip out. But now the car would no longer start using the key or remote. It would crank but the engine would not fire up. I also tried jumpstarting the car but it makes no difference. This car has been working great before the Viper install. I don't think it's the distributor as that is new (installed about 6 months ago). Timing belt/etc also replaced a year ago. I don't have someone to check the distributor/rotor if it turns during cranking.
I am not sure if the guy disconnected the battery during the install so I don't rule out broken fuse/links. My guess is that he didn't as he had to probe the wires.
I noticed that when the original alarm was ripped out, the guy also ripped out a relay. I don't know where this relay came from but it has the following dangling wires attached to it:
30 - BLACK/ white
86 - orange
87 - none
85 - red
87a - black
then there seems to be a diode between 86 and 85.
My question is: Is this relay necessary for the Viper install (i would think if the previous alarm needed it, then the new alarm also might). Could its absence be causing the engine to not fire up? If so, how do I go about re-connecting it? Attached is the picture of this relay that was removed.
Thanks so much. 
Replies:
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 3:03 PM
That would have probably have been a starter cut relay. This is built in on the 5701 and that might be the problem. Surely it's down to your installer to put this right.
-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: kreg357
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 3:15 PM
Another possibility is that the Viper is not connected to the cars' Second Starter wire ( Cold Start Fuel Enrichment ) . Should be a GREEN/ YELLOW wire at the ignition switch. If that wire is connected to the Pink/White wire at H3/7, then verify the Vipers Flex Relay programming is set to Starter2.
Howard is right, return to the installer for repair. ------------- Soldering is fun!
Posted By: tedmond
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 3:18 PM
if you had it installed and now the car doesnt start, you should have him fix it.
The car does have 2 start wires, so make sure he didnt damage one of them OR forgot to plug back the plug for the immobilizier ring.
------------- Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 4:09 PM
Thanks for the reply guys.
I am not sure if the installer was aware of the 2-starter quirkiness of this Nissan. I sent him an email about what I found so far on the web but so far no response from him. He seems like a nice guy though so I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and hopefully he'd get back to me soon. I am preparing for the worst though so I am going to try to understand this more.
I am confused about the starter kill/immbolizer. The guy asked me if I wanted to keep the starter kill and I said yes (he said it's a relay). I don't know if the starter kill is an aftermarket thing and not part of the factory Xterra. A Home Depot copy of the key worked before so I assume that the Xterra has no immobilizer (unless that was part of the old Audiovox alarm?).
howie ll, are you saying that the removed relay is likely the starter kill and that it's not necessary since it's built-in to the 5701?
kreg357, once I verify the wires you mentioned, are you saying that I should select "Option 3 - Starter 2" for the "Flex Relay Function" selection (the other choices being "Opt 1 - Ignition 2", "Opt 2 - Accesory 2")?
tedmond, about "forgot to plug back the plug for the immobilizier ring", may I ask for more details?
I appreciate all the help guys and I apologize if I'm a little slow on these things :-). It's my first time with car security (though I installed amp/speakers/head-unit before).
Right now, I don't want to tow the car to the Nissan Dealership as they would likely just fix it by getting the car to stock form.
Thank you so much!
Posted By: kreg357
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 4:56 PM
Yes for Flex Relay set for Starter2., Menu 3, Menu Item 8 to Option 3. If you can find / see the Viper module under the dash, look for the H3 heavy gauge wire connector. Find the H3/7 Pink/White wire and see if it goes to the GREEN/ YELLOW wire at the ignition switch harness. Also make sure that the RED / White wire at H3/2 is connected to +12v constant and the 30 amp fuse is good.
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Soldering is fun!
Posted By: 80085
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 5:02 PM
Correct, 2000 Nissan Xterras do not require a bypass
Posted By: godd dan it
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 6:18 PM
Im the one that did the install. Dont blame this on me. The Audiovox alarm had a starter kill installed, which is the relay in the first picture. The 1st primary starter wire was ONLY cut. I reconnected the starter wire, so I could start the car to test for the tach wire. The car wouldnt start! I didnt even touch the 2nd starter wire and it wasnt cut.
Marlon is leaving out the fact that I didnt start the car before I even worked on the car. (My mistake) How do I know for a fact that the car even started before I touched the car? I dont. The problem is the car doesnt start with the key.
This isnt the first time that I installed something like this......... -------------
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 6:50 PM
Ok guys, it's now too dark and cold outside to look at the wires. So in the mean time, I thought I'd paste my email correspondence below with the installer in case it gives us more information to help in the diagnostics.
--------------------------------------------------
<installer>,
https://www.clubxterra.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7645
If you look at the web site above, someone seems to have the same problem as me. The Nissans seem to have 2 starter wires and people have to use a relay. I noticed that you removed a relay from the car. Could this relay that you removed be essential? How did you hook up the two starter wires?
--------------------------------------------------
installer said:
This isnt the same problem that you have. The relay that I removed was the old starter kill that you had with the alarm. Look at the relay. It probably either says Tyco or Audiovox. These relays come with Audivox alarms and they are for starter kills. Your car wont even start with the key and that is the problem right now. Before I removed the alarm, I should have checked that the car would start. If I knew it wouldnt start, I wouldnt have installed the new alarm. That was my mistake for not checking. Ive been doing this stuff for about 9 years, so I know what im doing.
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<installer>,
The car was fine before the install. My wife arrived from work at 7AM that same morning using that car. I even offered you to move the car if you want. But anyway, I am not trying to imply anything. I know you did your best. I called Nissan and the fix they want to do is to get the car to stock form so I'm not too excited to bring the car to them.
It seems that the Viper 5701 does have the flex relay built-in so we don't need to use a relay to connect the 2nd starter wire. However, the "Flex Relay Function" in the menu defaults to Ignition 2 and that has to be set to "Starter 2". If you can still remember, can you tell me how you wired the 2nd starter wire (GREEN/ YELLOW)?
Thanks!
marlon
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installer said:
First of all, this has nothing to do with the 2nd starter wire or starter kill.
When I removed the old alarm, it had the starter kill relay in. Which requires cutting the primary (1st) starter wire in half. (Thats all it is) When I was installing the Viper system, I reconnected the primary (1st) starter wire back just like stock, so I could test/look for the tach wire. The car didnt start with the key and it was in stock form. I showed you that it was in stock form. It did have wires hanging, but that will not keep the car from starting. I actually didnt touch the 2nd starter wire because your car doesnt start with the key. (Its not cut or anything) So until the car starts with the key, I cant finish it. You did offer to move the car for me, but that doesnt mean anything to me. Until I see that the car actually started, then I know it wasnt me.
Changing the Flex Relay Function from Ignition 2 to Starter 2 is wrong. Ignition 2 needs to stay like that. You have to hook up a relay for the 2nd starter wire and it goes to the wire harness that I left in the Viper box. Like I said, the car wouldnt start even in stock form.
<installer>
--------------------------------------------------
<installer>,
First of all, thanks for the responses. I understand where you are coming from if you think the car was broken in the first place. You also have to at least consider the possibility that the car was OK before you worked on it (why would I install a remote start if the car doesn't start by key in the first place, I'd only be wasting labor cost). Either way, it doesn't really matter to me now as I just need to get the car working and I would hope you would help me with that. I am not interested in finger-pointing as that is not productive.
I'm also posting my issue to the12volt.com for the people there to help us. The things you mentioned below are valuable in the diagnostics so I'm going to post them as well (for your privacy, I'll take out your name). If you have anything else to add, please let me know. At this point, information is very important so I appreciate your responses to my questions.
Thanks!
Marlon
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 6:59 PM
godd dan it wrote:
Im the one that did the install. Dont blame this on me. The Audiovox alarm had a starter kill installed, which is the relay in the first picture. The 1st primary starter wire was ONLY cut. I reconnected the starter wire, so I could start the car to test for the tach wire. The car wouldnt start! I didnt even touch the 2nd starter wire and it wasnt cut.
Marlon is leaving out the fact that I didnt start the car before I even worked on the car. (My mistake) How do I know for a fact that the car even started before I touched the car? I dont. The problem is the car doesnt start with the key.
This isnt the first time that I installed something like this.........
Dan,
Thanks for responding and standing up!
I am not blaming you. I know doodie happens and it doesn't have to be anybody's fault. I know you did your best. I even felt bad that you had to stay that many hours to try and diagnose stuff so I appreciate your effort.
I hope we won't get into a blame-game as that is not my style. I am still very much interested to work with you on this so we can get my car working. That's all that matters to me.
Thanks and God bless!
Marlon
Posted By: mpe235
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 7:17 PM
First thing we need to do is find out why the vehicle isn't starting. Let's start with the basics. Check all of the fuses. Verify when the ignition is turned on that the bulb for the service engine soon light illuminates during the bulb test. If that checks out you will want to check for fuel and spark. These vehicle are known for problems with corrosion in the fuel sending unit plug that powers the fuel pump. If you find that you don't have fuel you can try wiggling the connectors on the top of the sending unit. Sometimes this will get it started. To get to the fuel sender remove the rear seat bottom and the black metal cover under it. You will have access to the top of the sending unit from there.
-------------
Nissan Master Tech.
Posted By: tedmond
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 8:06 PM
god dan it,im sure you are experianced, but im just really curious about something. Im not taking sides, but just wondering. As an installer, even if i strip an alarm from any car, I never trust their wiring, as i will remove, test the wire for function then connect the new wire.
If you tested your wires, wouldnt you have probed all the wires at the ignition for acc, ign, and start?
this is what has me a little confused.
However, i am interested in getting this resolved to save the image of installers. (not saying youre not a good one or the customer is a basher regarding installers) just want to help everyone get this resolved.
First off, i would start by turning on the ign and listen if the fuel pump primes, if power is present at acc, ign, start wires. If no power is present on a wire, check the fuses.
Since we ruled out bypass, and MPE mentioned fuel pump, DMM the fuel pump to see if it still functions.
keep us posted, thanks ------------- Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert
Posted By: t&t tech
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 8:24 PM
Does this vehicle have any anti-theft system that'e OEM? Have you all checked all fuses?
Posted By: mpe235
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 8:28 PM
The xterra didn't have an immobiliser or antitheft that would keep the vehicle from starting. ------------- Nissan Master Tech.
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 8:51 PM
It's already too dark/cold outside to check wirings/fuse/etc. But I did just put the key at Acc ON and I don't hear the fuel pump (all lights are working including the SES/CEL). But then again, I don't remember it being loud to be heard though. On my Sentra, it is loud enough to be heard. I did notice on the Sentra that if I remove the key and do the sequence again, the pump doesn't make a sound. It's like it knows it was already primed earlier.
I want to check the fuse and the fusible links but I don't know how to check them aside from visual inspection. What specific fuses/links should I check?
Posted By: smokeman1
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 10:00 PM
If I were trying to eliminate fuel or spark, I would have someone crank the vehicle, while I sprayed a SMALL amount of starter fluid into the air intake and see if the engine sputters or not. This would confirm spark and no fuel. Thats just me though.
-------------
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Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 10:48 PM
mpe235 wrote:
First thing we need to do is find out why the vehicle isn't starting. Let's start with the basics. Check all of the fuses. Verify when the ignition is turned on that the bulb for the service engine soon light illuminates during the bulb test. If that checks out you will want to check for fuel and spark. These vehicle are known for problems with corrosion in the fuel sending unit plug that powers the fuel pump. If you find that you don't have fuel you can try wiggling the connectors on the top of the sending unit. Sometimes this will get it started. To get to the fuel sender remove the rear seat bottom and the black metal cover under it. You will have access to the top of the sending unit from there.
mpe235, thanks! I believe you are talking about recall #04V230000 "THE FUEL PUMP TERMINAL ON THE FUEL-SENDING UNIT CAN DEVELOP A CRACK IN THE PLASTIC MOLDING. THIS CAN CAUSE THE TERMINAL STRIP TO CORRODE UNDER SOME ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS".
I had that recall done about half a decade ago (it was reported in 2004). I assume it will not recur once you had the recall done.
I will still investigate fuel or spark, after I check the fuses/links tomorrow.
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 22, 2010 at 11:02 PM
smokeman1 wrote:
If I were trying to eliminate fuel or spark, I would have someone crank the vehicle, while I sprayed a SMALL amount of starter fluid into the air intake and see if the engine sputters or not. This would confirm spark and no fuel. Thats just me though.
"starter fluid" as in the bottle you use to burn charcoal for barbecue?
Posted By: godd dan it
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 12:25 AM
Dont worry. I dont want to finger point. Thats not what I want to do. I strive to make my customers happy. I removed the alarm and started off fresh. Tested/checked my own wires. We did check all the fuses and they all looked good to me. I rarely ever blow fuses and im using a multimeter, not a test light. There is power to ACC, Ignition, Starter...etc. I checked it all. Just to clear things up, it tries to start with the key. So the starter is working. If it didnt....wouldnt you just hear "clicking"? Im not a mechanic, but I do know a few things here and there. Maybe its fuel or spark issues? I honestly never had anything like this happen before. I think its just a coincidence.
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Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 4:00 AM
My sympathy goes to both parties here, as an installer I know that sinking feeling in your stomach when this happens.
Always test everything on a running car before starting work on it.
Once did an install on a 95 E36 BMW Coupe, apparently lovingly rebuilt by the owner, didn't pre-check, half way through the left window stuck down. He insisted it was my fault, I made him take it to a BMW dealer who found he'd mounted the window module from the 4 door sedan rather than the coupe version. Red faced customer but phew!
The point about a pretest is that if you get a problem you've some where to start from rather than "it all worked fine before you started working on it".
Frankly wiring up the second starter or not is totally irrelevant at this point. Is there key power to both starter wires? Also please check ALL fuses.
-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 4:05 AM
I'm also guessing here but methinks the second starter "primes" the fuel system and enriches the mixture till it senses, either via a pressure switch or tach that the engine is turning over then cuts out.
-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: mpe235
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 5:59 AM
The corrosion in the fuel pump connector can reoccur. Fuel pumps also fail on these. If you test for power and ground at the top of the sending unit and you have both you can also try banging on the bottom of the fuel tank with a rubber mallet. The fuel pump is at the bottom of the tank.
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Nissan Master Tech.
Posted By: smokeman1
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 6:17 AM
Not the kind you put on charcoal. The kind you can buy at an automotive store, PepBoys, AutoZone,, or auto section of a WalMart ect, ect. It comes in a pressurized spray can. Used a lot in the cold Wisconsin winters. Even some spray carb cleaner will do the same thing.
-------------
When all else fails, Read the Instructions
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Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 8:59 AM
godd dan it wrote:
... The 1st primary starter wire was ONLY cut. I reconnected the starter wire, so I could start the car to test for the tach wire. The car wouldnt start! I didnt even touch the 2nd starter wire and it wasnt cut. ...
godd dan it, let me just confirm if I understand you correctly. Do you say that the 2nd starter wire is still uncut and that it's still connected to its original factory harness/connection (and NOT hanging)? (If so, then it wasn't needed by the previous alarm's starter kill?)
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 9:27 AM
Hey guys,
The Xterra is actually my wife's car so I've been really busy driving her to/from work in Jersey traffic (plus kids to school) which deprives me of the time to look more closely at her car.
Anyway, I'm in the office right now so I can't look at the car.
So far I have the following action items:
1. check fuses/links
2. check for fuel (including suggested spraying of starter fluid, probing fuel sender connection)
3. check for spark
4. verify with installer if 2nd starter wire is (a) hooked up to original factory harness/connection (b) hanging. Right now I can't check as most wiring is covered with electrical tape.
Thanks for all the help!
Posted By: dasbogie
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 11:33 AM
just a silly question because it happend to me on an install, were any vacuum lines disconnected or unplugged?
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Advanced
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 1:58 PM
dasbogie wrote:
just a silly question because it happend to me on an install, were any vacuum lines disconnected or unplugged?
i don't think so but I'll double-check when I get home. I suppose the only thing that was done in the engine bay was the siren.
Posted By: godd dan it
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 6:57 PM
marlonism wrote:
godd dan it wrote:
... The 1st primary starter wire was ONLY cut. I reconnected the starter wire, so I could start the car to test for the tach wire. The car wouldnt start! I didnt even touch the 2nd starter wire and it wasnt cut.
...
godd dan it, let me just confirm if I understand you correctly. Do you say that the 2nd starter wire is still uncut and that it's still connected to its original factory harness/connection (and NOT hanging)? (If so, then it wasn't needed by the previous alarm's starter kill?)
The 2nd starter wire is uncut. Actually not even touched. The previous alarm's starter kill was hooked up to the 1st starter wire, which is the correct way to do it.
No vacuum lines were unplugged or anything by me. Only thing I did under the hood was change the siren. -------------
Posted By: swiftp92
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 7:17 PM
I don't know if someone already mentioned it here but i've read from a source that there are car alarm system that have a kill switch. A kill switch is actually a small switch that you hide somewhere in your car that when you flip it on doesn't allow gas to get to the car making it inoperable to a thief. i hope this would help you about your starter problem.
Posted By: godd dan it
Date Posted: November 23, 2010 at 7:34 PM
swiftp92 wrote:
I don't know if someone already mentioned it here but i've read from a source that there are car alarm system that have a kill switch. A kill switch is actually a small switch that you hide somewhere in your car that when you flip it on doesn't allow gas to get to the car making it inoperable to a thief. i hope this would help you about your starter problem.
That wasnt done. I seen where all the wires went on the car from the alarm. Marlon said a dealership installed the alarm....they dont do those types of things. A fuel cut off is kinda dangerous. -------------
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 24, 2010 at 8:55 AM
updates folks...
Last night, I re-checked all the relevant fuses and they are all good. I was able to measure about 12 volts at the fuel pump fuse when ON. I also got voltage at the fuel pump relay but could not hear the fuel pump.
This morning, I removed the cover under the rear seat to expose the fuel sender shield. Then after that I removed the shield to expose the connectors. I was gonna test the connectors but they kind'a look difficult to unhook. So I thought I'd do the start sequence again to see if I could hear the pump better. Now, I can hear the pump for about 5 seconds when ON (or so it seems). The sound is very faint though so I am still not sure (hopefully it wasn't the CD player looking for a CD). Later, I'm gonna have my wife turn ON the car for me so I could put my ear very close to the pump. I'm almost positive though as the sounds seems to stop at the same time that the fuel pump relay "clicks" (I felt it with my hand).
If I confirm that the fuel pump makes a sound, is it safe to say that it's not a fuel problem?
I am going to check for spark next. I still need to do some more research as I have not done that before and I have no idea how to do it in daylight. Any tips would be appreciated (preferably with just one person testing).
Thanks!
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: November 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM
Though of pulling the pipe off either the end of the fuel pump or up on the engine bay to see if it's actually shoving any gas through?
-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 24, 2010 at 9:39 AM
I'll try to trace the fuel line if I could find a tire-like valve somewhere to see if it squirts fuel. I actually opted not to do the fuel filter replacement myself since it seemed to messy, but if I have no choice, I'll unplug the tank side.
Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: November 25, 2010 at 1:48 AM
that's called the fuel pump priming. it primes when you first turn the key then turns off until the car starts then it's on constantly.........
Why would you need the pump pushing fuel to the rail if the car is not on?
-------------
A DMM is a beautiful thing.
MECP Advanced Installer Certified.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: November 25, 2010 at 3:41 AM
Thanks Z I wasn't sure of the sequence, I also thought modern fuel injected engines used that primer as a start-enrichment device delivering fuel under high pressure, then cut out or down when tach was sensed, maybe I was wrong.
-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: mustyk@att.net
Date Posted: November 25, 2010 at 9:20 AM
I've been in this situation before. Car starts before I worked on it and doesn't afterward. I feel your pain on both sides. I was a master mechanic long before an installer. So I think you should go back to the starter fluid into the airhorn (or air filter box) trick. It sounds like yoiu already established you have fuel pressure so check for spark. If the car attempts to start after you spray starting fluid (not B-B-Q starter) then you do have spark.
-------------
thetopinstaller
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 26, 2010 at 5:04 PM
Ok updates...
Today I finally got a chance to check for spark. I inserted a test light (Lisle 20610) in between spark plug #1 and the plug wire (it's a V6 with firing sequence of 1-2-3-4-5-6). I didn't get any light at all during cranking. I also tried changing to a brand-new wire, still no joy. If you guys think that test wasn't enough, should I try testing with a brand-new plug grounded directly to battery (like if old plug is fouled up and can't close the circuit)?
So it seems that at this point, we have fuel (or at least it's pumping fuel) but no spark.
The ignition (I imagine) is connected this way:
primary starter wire -> brain
2nd starter wire is still uncut (connected like factory)
ignition -> brain
There shouldn't be a problem if the 2 starter wires go different ways, right (2nd is direct or factory default, primary goes thru brain)? I assume this is not any different from the previous alarm where the primary wire is connected thru a (starter kill) relay, is it?
Anyway, I'll investigate the spark a little bit more if I can check for power along the route before the plug wires.
Posted By: mpe235
Date Posted: November 26, 2010 at 5:24 PM
Is there a tach wire for the remote start that is connected to the distributor?
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Nissan Master Tech.
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 26, 2010 at 7:31 PM
mpe235 wrote:
Is there a tach wire for the remote start that is connected to the distributor?
The installer said he needed the engine running to find where the tach wire is. Since the engine could not start, I assume the status of the tach wire is whatever it was when the Audiovox PRO9232 was still there (which, if the 9232 didn't need it, then it's likely that the tach wire is still factory connected). But i'm just guessing here.
Posted By: godd dan it
Date Posted: November 26, 2010 at 10:19 PM
I didnt hook up the tach wire because I need the engine running to verify the wire. The Audiovox alarm doesnt have a tach wire. A tach wire hook up is only for remote starters.
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Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 27, 2010 at 7:45 AM
Updates...
When I opened the distributor cap, I was able to confirm that the rotor spins when the car cranks.
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: November 27, 2010 at 12:38 PM
updates...
i unplugged the H3 harness and shorted the green and violet wires (which in turn should configure the primary starter wire to bypass the alarm). The same problem and symptoms exist. It would crank but no start. Note that if the H3 harness is completey unplugged and the mentioned wires are not bypassed, the car doesn't crank at all.
I also tried uncapping the distributor and I can see the rotor spinning on crank.
I am also getting battery voltage at the 2-pin connector attached to the distributor on the ON position.
Note that there have been a lot of start attempts so once in a while I jumpstart or charge the battery, still no joy.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: November 27, 2010 at 1:18 PM
Fuel pump or engine management or factory immobiliser. Does this car have a Security light on the gauge cluster? Also charge up the battery then disconnect 1 terminal and short the battery leads together, refit the terminal then try again.
-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: November 27, 2010 at 1:25 PM
Just had another thought, maybe there IS a factory immobiliser and it was by-passed back in the day by simply "mullering" an original key to remove the chip which would have been "fixed" (preferably using an epoxy glue) to the plastic antenna ring around the key hole on the ignition switch. The only sure way to find out is to drop the steering column housing and see if there's a round plastic cover to the ignition switch barrel around the keyhole with two or more wires coming off it.
If the chip has dropped, believe me you will never find it!
-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: 80085
Date Posted: November 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM
I don't know if this solution will work for you, but you are having the same symptoms I was having with a 2007 Mitsubishi Endeavor that I worked on a few days ago. I found that the car was no longer starting, it would crank, and almost start, but just wouldn't start. I had turned the ignition on/off numerous times to try and program the compustar remotes but I was not having any luck. My mechanic came by last night, and he diagnosed that the engine was flooded. So doing that multiple times flooded the engine. I thought I broke something else. So all he did was take some pliers, pinch the fuel line, got me to floor the gas pedal and crank the car. I did this for about 10 seconds, and then the car started. What a relief. I wanted to hug him, cuz I wasn't sleeping well the last few nights, kept thinking about what I might have possibly broke and what out-of-pocket costs I would have to swallow.
Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: November 27, 2010 at 7:28 PM
From the details in this thread it sounds to me like the alarm work is not related to the problem.
I would try the inline spark tester on all 6 cylinders to see if you get a spark on any of them. If not, I would replace the coil. However, before replacing the coil I think I would pull a plug out, visually inspect it, and ground it to the block and test it the old fashioned way (just to be sure). I'm assuming that this vehicle has a spark system that consists of a coil, a distributor and spark plugs and I'm assuming that the signal to the coil from the ECU is present and working.
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Kevin Pierson
Posted By: godd dan it
Date Posted: November 27, 2010 at 11:19 PM
How much gas is in the car?
I know ive had starting problems before with my car and I know other people that had problems too. All came down to it being the gas. Either bad gas, maybe some water in the tank...etc. If the tank is kind of low...maybe fill up a gas can and dump some new gas in. Maybe that will do the trick. -------------
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: December 01, 2010 at 8:30 AM
Updates...
Finally took the car to a Nissan dealership. They charge $99 for the diagnostics. I got a call this morning saying that they would need $369 to diagnose it further. They said the car is not getting spark and fuel, and they mentioned fuel injectors (but the representative I'm talking to in the phone seems clueless as to what he is saying). They would need to take out the alarm in the diagnostics (completely remove it all the way to make it stock) and then if they find out that parts need to be replaced, the cost of the parts will be added to the $369.
They are now asking me if they should go ahead. The sad part here is that the car was running really smooth before the install (no signs of any trouble, though things have a tendency to crap out on the worst time).
<sigh>
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: December 01, 2010 at 9:02 AM
Oh and the reason why I went to the Nissan dealership instead of to my mechanic is because the dealership replaced the distributor a few months ago. It cost around $600 so I was thinking that if the problem is with the distributor (which also houses the camshaft position sensor, power transistor, ignition coil), at least they would fix it under warranty.
So now I am torn between two choices: let Nissan fix it or tow it to my mechanic (I would lose $99 diagnostics and cost of towing).
Posted By: godd dan it
Date Posted: December 01, 2010 at 7:00 PM
Sorry to hear. I hate how dealerships always want to blame the alarm and/or remote starter. I worked at Honda and whenever there was a problem with the car, I only had to disconnect the alarm system or atleast put it in valet (if they didnt know how to). That was because I worked there. If you dont work there....the dealership will want to remove anything that is not stock. Maybe you should have never told them that you just had an alarm installed. You did tell me that you had an alarm installed by the dealership (the one I removed). Would they even know the difference? Maybe...maybe not. -------------
Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: December 01, 2010 at 11:31 PM
So.... if they go ahead and pull the remote start and whatnot and come to the conclusion that it's the distributor or something unrelated are they going to pay to have the remote start unit reinstalled?
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A DMM is a beautiful thing.
MECP Advanced Installer Certified.
Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: December 01, 2010 at 11:34 PM
also what in the hell? you payed 600 dollars to have a distributor replaced but got a random guy off craigslist to do your alarm remote start install?
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A DMM is a beautiful thing.
MECP Advanced Installer Certified.
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: December 02, 2010 at 12:25 AM
IT'S WORKING NOW!!!
The Nissan dealership said they were not getting fuel pressure and spark so they have to do a full diagnostics on the ignition. All the readings were good and the parts they suspected all checked fine (distributor, pump, injectors, ECM, etc). Finally, what they did was to disconnect the remote start and then they were able to start the car.
The labor is $396+tax for a total $423. There were no parts needed, they just disconnected the remote start and everything worked.
I still don't know exactly what they mean by "disconnected the remote start", or what specific wires they have to re-configure back to stock. I'm hoping to be able to talk to the mechanic later to ask what fix they did to the connections. In other words, I don't know how my test of unplugging the H3 harness and shorting the primary starter wire input/output on the harness was any different.
The alarm brain is still mounted, and the Viper remote can still lock/unlock the doors so I think it's still partially installed. I am currently at a loss as to how to proceed from here (whether to proceed completing the remote start, completely remove the alarm, or leave things as they are with the hope that the partial install won't show problems down the road).
I'm out about $643 all in all plus about 10 days of driving wife to/from work, and kids to school so this has not been a pleasant experience so far.
Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: December 02, 2010 at 12:27 AM
i don't buy it.
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A DMM is a beautiful thing.
MECP Advanced Installer Certified.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: December 02, 2010 at 12:31 AM
They wouldn't have done anything different from what YOU did marionism.
Like Z said, I don't buy it either.
Probably something completely different like a fuel pump relay or engine sensor failing.
Bye the way Z, was it you they were having a (humerous) go at on IML recently?
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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: December 02, 2010 at 12:32 AM
huh? i always harass the people asking to be taken off the list. what exactly are you talking about?
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A DMM is a beautiful thing.
MECP Advanced Installer Certified.
Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: December 02, 2010 at 12:39 AM
When you pointed out that the picture was a Kia, made with Mazda bits and branded a Ford, about a week ago. I'm just joining the anti DEI tech rant, interesting thread.
The people who ask to be removed are obviously the same ones as those who post on this site asking for tech info who haven't looked to see that their vehicle is quite clearly listed in the vehicle wiring section.
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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.
Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: December 02, 2010 at 12:42 AM
can't say i recall saying anything like that... i usually say wooweee or mwuahahahaha at the people asking to be taken off of the mailing list. a majority of them go to my spam though.
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A DMM is a beautiful thing.
MECP Advanced Installer Certified.
Posted By: marlonism
Date Posted: December 02, 2010 at 12:50 AM
The bill that I paid shows no parts in it, only labor. So that means there's nothing wrong with the physical parts (unless we have 2 coincidences: the problematic part breaking on the day of the install and then starting to work again during Nissan's diagnostics).
The service representative did mention, when I asked him if it's possible to only re-configure the wires necessary for ignition, that the whole alarm has to be completely removed since it's "grounded all over" but I don't really know what he meant by that. I don't really expect details or accuracy from a representative, unless he is quoting the mechanic word for word. (Note that they didn't really end up removing the whole thing.)
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