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g35 2005 viper 5301 no cold start

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=124902
Printed Date: June 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM


Topic: g35 2005 viper 5301 no cold start

Posted By: hilock
Subject: g35 2005 viper 5301 no cold start
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 1:18 PM

2005 G35 Coupe/standard key

Remote start works great but no "cold start"

I know all about the 2nd cold start wire (green and white) on the ignition harness. I have the G35s GREEN / WHITE second starter wire powered via the flex relay output (H3/6) and have confirmed the viper outputs the juice during remote start.

No issues with the idatalink can interface

Still no remote cold starting. The remote start harness is wired as follows: Any advice is much appreciated

posted_image



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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI



Replies:

Posted By: dcman41
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 2:02 PM
What happens? Do you have the cold start issue when started with the key as well? Does the car crank, and not turn over ? Try to adjust cranking time ? Also make sure you set the flex wire as starter 2 under the programming menu.




Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 2:18 PM
Where did you hook up tach?

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A DMM is a beautiful thing.

MECP Advanced Installer Certified.




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 9:56 PM
dcman41 wrote:

What happens? Do you have the cold start issue when started with the key as well? Does the car crank, and not turn over ? Try to adjust cranking time ? Also make sure you set the flex wire as starter 2 under the programming menu.


I have adjusted the cranking time all the way to 1.2 seconds
I have set the flex relay to option 3 (starter output) and have tested that the flex relay output is actually outputting juice at the proper time.

I have the tach wire conected to the tach output of the "idatalink" (same as flcan I believe)

After some advice from a BestBuy installer, I thinking the tach has something to do with this issue.

I just tried going tach less and still mixed results

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 9:59 PM
Tach input is conected to the "idatalink" bypass module "tach output".

Perhaps I should change the tach input settings on the viper to "tach"

The options on the Viper are as follows 1. "virtual tach" default" 2. Voltage 3. off 4. Tachometer

So far I have tried virtual tach and voltage

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 10:05 PM
hook up an actual tach wire not through the bypass.

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A DMM is a beautiful thing.

MECP Advanced Installer Certified.




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 10:08 PM
Hmmm I was afraid you might say that. I hate to run another wire through the firewall but will if I have to.

Are there any alternatives? Any recommendations on the BEST place to get the tach signal?

Thanks so much for your fast response

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 10:09 PM
I'm also reading about menu item 3-14 "tach mode starter release" do you know anything about this setting? Could this be a factor as well?

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: zerepdivad
Date Posted: December 08, 2010 at 10:30 PM
at an injector or you can get it at the ecm pin 23.

-------------
A DMM is a beautiful thing.

MECP Advanced Installer Certified.




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 09, 2010 at 12:02 AM
thanks again, I'll let you know how it goes

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 09, 2010 at 7:12 AM
Yep, grab tach at the ECU under the passenger dash.


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Kevin Pierson




Posted By: kgerry
Date Posted: December 09, 2010 at 12:44 PM
from my experience... DEI units do not work with Idata's tach O/P......

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Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer

Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 09, 2010 at 5:34 PM
Good News Bad News

The Good:
I changed the engine checking mode to "tach" and there were no problems reading the tach signal from the Idatalink.

The car has been consistently starting all day even after sitting for long periods of time AS LONG AS I UNLOCK THE CAR FIRST!

The BAD:
Now that I have discovered the car only remote starts after unlocking.....Why is that????

For example: If the car is locked and the blue Viper light is blinking the car will crank (for about 7 seconds) and never turn over. I finally figured out that if I hit the unlock button then remote start the car fires up every time.

IS this a normal procedure?? Any suggestions?

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: dcman41
Date Posted: December 09, 2010 at 6:40 PM
The answer is quite simple actually... You need to hook up your keysense wire. Here is a quick test sit in your car arm the vehicle, stick the key in the ignition cylinder, and proceed to remote start the car. If it works then by using a relay, Convert a - to a + and use the 2nd status output on the viper brain.

Keysense / BLACK/ pink / + / ignition harness or BCM, pin 37

Hope this helps and solves your issue.

Also check your orange wire Ground when armed if it is connected to anything. (-500 ma)




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 1:02 AM
DCMAN41,
I can't thank you enough....you are absolutely right! AFter running into dead ends with BestBuy Viper installers and the smaller shops as well you were the only one to diagnose this issue.

You really helped me out, anything I can to return the favor? Any online business I could buy something from...........

I wasn't thrilled that I needed a diode to reverse the polarity for the "keysense" but found a great place to mount it cleanly and got it done. Works like a champ!! Yes my "ground when running" is connected.

Again,
let me know if there is something I can do to return the favor

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 3:35 PM
Quick question: Does Viper forget the learned "tach" signal when battery is disconnected? My current theory is that the Viper does forget.

Any advice is appreciated.

I had problems cold starting today but did not yesterday. The only change is that I unhooked the power to the viper yesterday. So I just relearned the "tach signal". I"m still getting the tach signal from the interface, but Viper has no issues learning it.



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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 3:45 PM
No, the Viper shouldn't ever forget the tach signal. Rewire your tach signal to the fuel injector at the ECU and you won't have any more issues. Getting tach from a data module is not near as reliable as getting the tach from an actual tach signal.

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Kevin Pierson




Posted By: dcman41
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 4:37 PM
Ive never encountered any issues running virtual tach on any of the cars ive done. As far as your cold start issue goes, did you make sure to hook up the RED / black, RED / white, red Heavy Gauge wires? As those are used to power the ignition, starter, and flex output wire. Does the cold start issue occur when you start the car with the key too? Or is it only when you attempt to remote start the vehicle ? Does the car crank and not catch or does it not do anything at all ?




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 5:21 PM
All of the heavy gauge wires are hooked up as outlined on page one. I even tested that the flex relay is outputing the "second starter signal". Yes the Red, RED / black, RED / white are all powered and even have seperate wires going to the battery.

The cold start issue, does not happen with the key.

If the car is set to the "tach" input it will crank but not catch. When set to voltage it will crank only for a sec or less and not catch.

Now that I have solved the "keysense" issue. I may give the "virtual tach another shot. Since when I previously tested that function I still had the "keysense" wire not hooked up.

By the way I have been looking at the ECM harnes and there are lots of wires and no way to identify by # (you mentioned pin 23). I did look at he coil wires and see there are some common wires and uncommon. I have read any of the uncommon wires will provide the tach signal.

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 5:25 PM
I should mentione the remote starting has been inconsistent. Sometimes it starts but most of the time not if it has sat for very long. Yesterday it seemed to start all day long as long as it was unlocked. Then of course I found out the keysense issue was why I had to unlock it first.
Anyway just a quick FYI I"m going to try the virtual tach as promised.



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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 5:50 PM
DCman41 and KPierson first let me say thanks so much for your help and patience.

I do believe this is still related to the lock unlock feature. Even though I now have a relay hooked up (negative trigger) to the "keysense". I noticed I heard a click of the of the relay just after the last remote start. My new theory is that the negative signal to the relay powering the keysense is sometimes slow.

By the way I"m Using the virtual tach for the moment

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 6:18 PM
Ok I isolated the problem finally.

The bad news is this is a "keysense" issue.   Because the car starts just fine when unlocked first.

So since I have a relay wired up to the neagtive triger on the viper what is the problem?

1.) Odds are probably slim its the viper causing the issue with a slow negative output
2.) I have the relay powered from the same wire that powers the 2nd starter (this source wire goes straight to the battery w/fuse)

Theory: When car is cold and en gauges the second starter wire, this causes a voltage drop to the relay. This would explain whey the relay shows that its outputing after the car starts but apparently not while "cold starting"

Anyone agree disagree before I try powering the relay from an alternate power source?


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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: dcman41
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 6:27 PM
Did you wire the relay according to the first diagram on this page? https://www.the12volt.com/relays/page1.asp

Changing the power source will not fix the issue. Did you use the second status output wire on the brain? If you used the same status output that you used for the bypass, chances are you are getting feedback. Unless you diode isolated..




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 7:04 PM
Yes I followed the diagram on the page you posted for the negative trigger relay.

I did not use same status output as the one going to the bypass.

As for the output on the brain, I used the aux harness #5 Blue -200ma "STATUS OUTPUT". The install manual states this is often used for the keysense.

If the power source will not fix the relay powering the keysense, then why is it the car will power the keysense if the car is warm and not using the second start wire input (the second start wire input being where the relay is currently powered from).




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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: dcman41
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 7:19 PM
If you used the solid blue color on the 5 pin harness for -status output for the keysense, then what wire did you use to connect the bypass to for the status output ? There is an additional blue/white wire on the alternate 5 pin harness that has the following wires, BLACK/ white(neutral safety), violet white(tach), brown(brake shutdown) gray (hoodpin), and blue/white (2nd remote status output).




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 7:58 PM
I do not have a "status output" going from the Viper to the Bypass. The only wire between the Viper and bypass is (with the respect to the bypass) "Ground output when running" "Arm" "disarm" "Trunk" "-door stats"

I can put this into a chart as well.

Concur on the wiring harness you mentioned. The 2nd remote status outputs is currently not in use.

You may be on to something here..............
I have the Viper H1/12 orange "-ground when armed output" connected to the bypass "ground output when running" I never felt confident on this connection but at the time it seemed to make sense (new guy perspective of course).

Look forward to any advice......I"m thinking you will recommend I connect the 2nd status output to the bypasses "ground output when running".

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 10, 2010 at 8:32 PM
Yes Yes, I think I made a very stupid mistake. I'll just tested hooking up the status output from the viper to the by pass "ground output when running" and so far so good.



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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 12:04 PM
Ok All is well and thanks again for your patience, I know it was a rookie mistake.

I'm so glad this is all working so well now!! Could not have done it without all the support.

The idatalink door status does work and I just tested it to confirm. Although when I set the viper to unlock the doors with ignition nothing happens. I know the door status must be received by the viper for this to work and it does receive the negative door status.

Any thoughts???

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: dcman41
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 2:52 PM

I have the Viper H1/12 orange "-ground when armed output" connected to the bypass "ground output when running"

That right there my friend is your problem. Get rid of the orange wire you do not need it. You need to connect the "ground output when running" also known as -status output from your bypass to the blue -status output on the viper brain




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 3:37 PM
You are absolutley correct. I re wired last night just as you said and have not had a problem since.

Although I wish the viper new when my car was locked.

Right now if the car is locked and I remote start Viper unlocks the doors. So when I get out of the car with the doors unlocked viper still thinks the car is locked.

Even if I hit the lock button nothing happens because Viper thinks the car is locked.

Of course if I hit the unlock first then lock it will lock the doors.

I do have the door trigger ground hooked up to the viper and tested that the signal is there.

Any suggestions?

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: dcman41
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 7:05 PM
cut the wire that you wired to the keysense wire, I dont believe it is needed anymore since the ground when armed wire was causing the no start condition. After cutting the wire going to the keysense from the relay, try to arm/disarm the car. Just something to try.




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 8:16 PM
For the Lock and Unlock you should run the wires in to the doors, this will allow remote window control (like the factory remote had, plus you can do remote window up). The data interface 'may' not let you lock the doors when the ignition is on. Also, door status and door locks are two completely, unrelated parts of the alarm.

I don't quite follow you about the door locking issues - are you saying that when you remote start the car the doors unlock and stay unlocked? If so, you should be able to use the 2nd starter output of the remote start to relock the doors. Just make sure to isolate it so that it doesn't lock the doors when you crank with the key!

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Kevin Pierson




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 9:28 PM
BLUF: The first thing the car does when remote starting is unlock the doors. If I could prevent this the problem would be solved. Below is the current scenario.

1. Car parked, locked and Viper Blue light is flashing
2. I push remote start
3. car unlocks
4. Car starts (Blue light still blinking)
5. Doors remain unlocked
6. I get in car drive (blue light stops) then exit the vehicle (Blue light returns to blinking)
7. Exit car Push lock.......confirmation chip sounded, doors do NOT lock because Viper thinks the car is locked already (Blue light blinking)

Yes, I need to run the wires directly to the doors, I do miss the window down function. Although I have movers coming in two days so I'll have to put that on hold for a bit.


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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 9:35 PM
That doesn't set the alarm off???? You should need to disarm it before you get in and drive off. Otherwise I would think it would set the alarm off.

The doors unlock because you are disarming the OEM alarm before starting. To my knowledge there is no way on the G to disarm without unlocking. Your best option would be to relock using the starter output as mentioned above. You could also try hooking up the factory rearm output, but I don't believe that will rearm until after the remote start shuts down.

Speaking of the remote start shutting down have you connected the rearm output to the door pin to deal with the RAP issue that keeps the headlights on after you remote start? I know this was a problem on the 03/04s and I think it was still a problem in '05. Basically, once remote started if the headlights come on in auto they will stay on until a door is open. If you shut the remote start off, or it times out and a door is never open the headlights will quickly kill the battery.

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Kevin Pierson




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 10:09 PM
Once again, your knowledge continues to impress. I just ran into the headlight issue tonight. Had you not mentioned it I probably would have found myself in trouble.

As for the alarm issue, this model Viper is key-less entry and remote start only (no alarm or siren).

Yeah, I figured the doors unlocked because of the disarming action.

I'll have to hook up the re-locking via the second starter negative output. When you say "isolate".......do you mean isolate with a diode?

As for "re-arm" I have nothing by that description on my install manual or documentation that came with the Viper. I do have "Arm" & "Disarm". Is this "re-arm" function called by another name??


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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 11, 2010 at 10:41 PM
One additional possibley key detail.

This being my first security install, I did not hook up the "lock or unlock wire"

I do have the "arm/disarm" wires hooked up and thought this would be sufficient since "are/disarm" locks and unlocks the doors as well.

What I'm finding out is that often when pushing lock it does not always "disarm" I see menu settings to include "disarm with unlocking" but no menu settings to include "arm with locking".

Conclusion:
I need to hook up my lock and unlock wires.

Does this sound correct???

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: December 12, 2010 at 7:39 AM
Yes, diodes would work to isolate the two signals. I believe you are using the flex output for the 2nd start, correct? If so, you should probably use a relays to isolate as the output is high current and you would need a very large diode.

You could set it up like this:

Second Starter Output:
High current 2nd starter output: Pin 86
Ground: Pin 85
High current source: Pin 30
2nd Starter Output: Pin 87

Relock Output:
High current 2nd starter output: Pin 86
Ground: Pin 85
Ground: Pin 30
Relock output: Pin 87

I'm not sure if the rearm and arm are the same, you would have to check the documentation to see how the arm wire works.

When pushing the "LOCK" button it should "arm", not "disarm".

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Kevin Pierson




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 12, 2010 at 12:52 PM
Thanks for the write up.

Keep in mind I still have the Aux harness available. This Aux harness is all negative outputs.   I have not used any of these wires yet. So I"m thinking I can use the aux harness instead of installing a relay.

Remote start auxiliary output, 5-pin
These signals are provided to drive additional optional relays.
1
PINK/WHITE
(-) 200mA FLEX RELAY CONTROL OUTPUT
This wire is programmed as (-) 2nd ignition output from factory and can be programmed (to drive a relay) as a (-) starter or an accessory output. (See Feature programming Menu 3, feature 8.)
2
ORANGE
(-) 200mA ACCESSORY OUTPUT
This wire works like the main accessory wire and can be used (with a relay) to drive any additional accessory circuits in the vehicle.
3
VIOLET
(-) 200mA STARTER OUTPUT
This wire works like the starter wire and can be used (with a relay) to drive any additional starter circuits in the vehicle.
4
PINK
(-) 200mA IGNITION 1 OUTPUT
This wire works like the ignition 1 wire and can be used (with a relay) to drive any additional ignition circuits in the vehicle.
Note: Wires 1 - 4 on the remote start auxiliary outputs are wired to the (-) triggers for the onboard remote start relays and are not diode isolated. If connecting these wires directly to the vehicle you must place a 1-amp diode in line to prevent feedback from the vehicle.
5
BLUE
(-) 200mA STATUS OUTPUT
This wire supplies an output as soon as the module begins the remote start process. It can be used to activate a bypass module or power the key sense wire in most vehicles to disarm the factory alarm without unlocking.
Note: Check vehicle information to verify if a bypass module is needed or if the key sense wire is needed.

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 18, 2010 at 1:29 PM
dcman41, you are correct, I cut the keysense wire and it was no longer needed now that everything is wired correctly.

Thanks again

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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 18, 2010 at 2:53 PM
KPierson wrote:

That doesn't set the alarm off???? You should need to disarm it before you get in and drive off. Otherwise I would think it would set the alarm off.

The doors unlock because you are disarming the OEM alarm before starting. To my knowledge there is no way on the G to disarm without unlocking. Your best option would be to relock using the starter output as mentioned above. You could also try hooking up the factory rearm output, but I don't believe that will rearm until after the remote start shuts down.

Speaking of the remote start shutting down have you connected the rearm output to the door pin to deal with the RAP issue that keeps the headlights on after you remote start? I know this was a problem on the 03/04s and I think it was still a problem in '05. Basically, once remote started if the headlights come on in auto they will stay on until a door is open. If you shut the remote start off, or it times out and a door is never open the headlights will quickly kill the battery.


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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI




Posted By: hilock
Date Posted: December 18, 2010 at 2:54 PM
The auto headlight issue is the last thing I need to fix on the install. you are correct this is still an issue on the 2005.

Where can I get this "rearm output" and does it only output a signal when remote start is used?

By the way, I have a negative "status output" wire available (now that I don't need it to switch on the relay for the keysense).

I want to resolve the headlight issue but would rather not pulse the door trigger when I'm not using the remote start since it does roll down the window just so slightly.

Any recommendations are appreciated.


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G-35 & FJ Cruiser Remote Start Viper 5301 & Pyton 4203--Alpine touchscreen A/V system w/Camera, Sat radio, SWI





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