2003 civic, avital 4103, multiple problems

I've spent the last couple hours searching, and haven't seen anyone else that seems to have run across this, but I'm surprised. It seems as if it would be a common problem, given the install manual.

I installed an Avital 4103 into a 2003 Civic this past week, including hooking up the keyless entry. Since then, the battery appears to be dying overnight.

Through a little troubleshooting, I think I've pinned it down to an anti-grind relay that's powered whenever the doors are locked via the Avital remote/brain. In other words, all night long.

The install manual says to use the H1/5 Ground When Locked output for an anti-grind relay and also refers to this output at Ground When Armed. It also states "Supplies -500mA ground as long as the system is locked and when the remote start is activated". The problem I'm seeing is, I can sit in the car, hit the lock button and when I turn the key, nothing happens. In other words, the relay is clearly powered, and disabling the key start, even when the remote start is not activated. So the part about "when the remote start is activated" seems to either be in error, or there's something wrong with the brain of my unit? And I'm making an assumption that GWL means a ground is provided whenever the doors are locked, since the manual is not actually clear on this point, but it seems reasonable. Has anyone else come across this?

Further in the install manual, where they show a diagram of the anti-grind relay, they actually show using the Status Output, instead of the Ground When Locked. However, there is a menu item to disable Anti-Grind, which by the description appears to turn off the GWL output. In other words, inconsistency in the manual as to which output to use to trigger the relay.

I'd like to use the 2nd status/Defog as a defog, so I can't use it for the anti-grind relay. And the 1st Status output is currently connected to a Fortin SL3. What are my other options here, to trigger the anti-grind?

Thanks for the help, there are a LOT of knowledgeable people on here!

you can use nti grind relay, and diode isolate it just in case.the same wire that is feeding the fortin mod to trigger your anti grind relay and diode isolate it just in case.

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The best way to predict the future is to create it!

Will I not run into any current problems, using the same output for both the Fortin and the anti-grind? I believe it's only a 200mA output, figure 150mA for the relay, only leaves 50mA for the Fortin.

Obviously something went wrong with my post... It should read that you can use the same wire as the fortin, another option is to leave it wired as it is, but use the vehicle ignition wire on the one side of the relay, so it is only active when the key is on or starting, this will have it dead during rest/no ignition.

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The best way to predict the future is to create it!

The problem is with your +12V to the relay, not with the orange wire. Change your +12V from constant hot to starter wire (or ignition), key cylinder side. This way the relay is only 'on' when trying to start with the key.

85 - Orange Ground when locked
86 and 30 - Key cylinder side of cut starter wire (or ignition)
87a - Vehicle side of cut starter wire (this is also where your heavy purple from the remote start goes).
You should also put a diode across pins 85 and 86, stripe facing 86.

The status output can also be used for anti-grind but would only work as anti-grind and not a starter kill when locked.

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Installer, IT support, and FFL. I need less hobbies.

Thanks to both you guys, that makes perfect sense now! Not sure why I didn't see that to begin with. Again, just going off the diagram in the install manual, they show a "constant +12v" to the relay, but that's with using the status output, where that would work fine.

Clearly they assume some existing experience/knowledge with these install manuals.

Didn't even think of the protection diode, I appreciate that tip!

I originally wired it up with 87a to the key cylinder side, and 30 to the vehicle side. Functionally, it's the same as what you're suggesting, just wondering if there's any particular reason you prefer the other way around?

Thanks again, this saved me a lot of frustration!

cherry3z wrote:

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I originally wired it up with 87a to the key cylinder side, and 30 to the vehicle side. Functionally, it's the same as what you're suggesting, just wondering if there's any particular reason you prefer the other way around?

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Nope, either way is fine...separates the wire when the relay is active, reconnects it when relay is off.

You are absolutely correct about the way DEI writes their manuals. Even though Avital is not one of their protected lines, the manuals are still written assuming you are a "professional".



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Installer, IT support, and FFL. I need less hobbies.

HELP! I'm about at my wits end with this install, and the 7am "my car won't start and I'm late for work" phone calls are getting very trying.

First, the equipment.

• 2003 Civic EX
• Avital 4113
• Fortin SL-3 Bypass
• Anti Grind Relay wired to GWL

Got everything installed and wired after a long 2 days, and the car started fine, both via remote start as well as key, and the anti-grind relay worked as designed.

Gave the car back to the girlfriend, and there were 2 problems;

1)   Battery was largely dead the next morning (at least, after she tried to crank it multiple times). Turns out, I was continually powering the anti-grind relay when the doors were locked via the keyless entry (because of the ground while locked output to the relay). Changed the +12v for the relay coil to come from the ignition wire, which solved the battery drain.

2.)   Second problem, and the reason for the dead battery is she tried to crank it multiple times. Occasionally, the first time you attempt to start the car by key, it will crank but not catch. Obviously the immobilizer is not recognizing the key. We've since figured out if you stop cranking, take the key out and put it back in, it fires right up. But again, this is intermittent.

Today, she's running errands (which included getting a new battery because the last one while having good voltage, was low on amps, not sure if this is a pertinent detail?) and it's been starting fine at each stop. Except the last stop. Suddenly, the car won't start via the key (won't even crank - starter not getting energized). Remote start worked, but shortly after she starts driving she gets a check engine light, the transmission d4 light starts blinking and the transmission is not shifting/driving properly.

At this point, via a phone call I have her shut the car off, and try to start via the key. Nothing. Remote start works, but produces same result...blinking transmission light. While car is running on remote start, I have her try to bump the key to "start" to test anti-grind relay, no grind. Have her perform key takeover and try to bump the start again.......no grind! Clearly that should not be the case, but based on the other problems, I don't think the issue is in the relay. I think something else is preventing the key from energizing the starter.

20 minutes pass, where she's inside and hasn't touched the car. I have her try the key again, car starts fine and transmission problem has disappeared (check engine light is still on obviously, because she has no way to reset the code). I have her repeat this 4 times, and each time the car starts fine via the key. Then I have her try the remote start, and again it starts fine with no issues. Also had her test anti-grind relay and all works as expected. So in other words, the earlier issue has disappeared entirely.

Prior to today's problems, I've checked and double-checked all my wiring connections, and they're all correct as far as I can tell. Also, all connections are soldered (save 1 or 2 minor connections where I used wire-taps, such as horn and parking light flash).

Sorry for the looong post, but I wanted to make sure I was as descriptive about the problem as possible for troubleshooting purposes.

SO, can anyone help me?!? Or point me in the right direction? I'm electrically competent (was an aviation electrician in the Navy, and while I don't remember everything I learned, I'm by no means bumbling around here). I really am about to just give up, this thing has been nothing but problems, but taking it all back out would probably be more work than getting it to work properly! Thanks!

And for a little more info, I got the check engine code. P1705, "short in transmission range switch circuit". Which would explain the key not starting the car.

It seems too coincidental that this problem would suddenly appear on it's own, so how has the remote start caused this short to ground?

disconnect power from the remote start and see if the problem continues. If it does you know its nothing to do with your install. If not then you need to go over everything to verify where the problem is. You can also post a detailed list of the connections you made and we can help you figure out any issues with the install if there is one

Due to the intermittent nature of the problem (seems to always be after I give the car back to her), I'm not sure disconnecting the power to the RS will give me a definitive answer. I can only have the car a day or 2 at a time, and the issues never seem to come up when I have the car.

So, let me give the detailed wire connection list a go, and you tell me if you see any problems. Not sure I'm doing this in a way that's easy to read, but here goes.

Car Wire - Avital Wiring

+12v Ignition Harness (white) - Both red high current 12v inputs
Starter (Bl/Wh) - Purple output to starter circuit
Ignition (Bl/Ylw) - Pink ignition circuit
Accessory (Bl/Red) - Orange output to accessory circuit
2nd Accessory (Wh/Red) - Pink/White flex output, programmed to accessory

Power Lock (Wh/Blue) - Green lock output
Power Unlock (Wh/Grn) - Blue unlock output

Brake Wire (Wh/Blk) - Brown brake switch shutdown wire
Installed hood pin - Gray hood pinswitch shutdown wire
Horn Trigger (Or) - Brown horn output wire

Neutral safety switch input on Avital (Bl/Wh) is wired through switch directly to ground (body bolt on car). (car already has factory starter lock-out, incidentally what seems to be my problem).

I used this same ground for the black Avital ground.


Anti-grind Relay Wiring

86 - Bl/Wh Starter wire from car, key side
85 - Orange GWL output from Avital, programmed to anti-grind ON
30 - Bl/Wh Starter wire starter side and Purple starter wire from      Avital
87a - Bl/Wh starter wire from car, key side
86 and 85 are diode protected, with stripe towards 86


Trunk Release Relay Wiring

86 - +12v constant fused at 5a
85 - RED / Wh trunk release output on Avital
30 - to grounded trunk solenoid
87 - +12v, fused 10a (can't remember right now where I pulled this +12v from)


Fortin SL-3 Wiring

Blue Status output on Avital to Blue GWR on Fortin
RED / Blue on car to PURPLE / White on Fortin
Blue/Orange on car cut, Or/Bl on Fortin to key side and Or to vehicle side
Yellow/Black on car to Yellow on Fortin
White on car to Red +12v on Fortin
Br/Ylw on car to Black - on Fortin


I'm thinking my problem lies somewhere in my relay wiring, but I'm not sure where. Everything works exactly as it's supposed to, until these crazy intermittent issues. And at this point, I'm worried about causing actual considerable damage to the transmission, given the latest issue.

Update

We put a new battery in the car, after finding the old one to be shot. Initially, I thought this had solved all the problems, as everything was fine for a solid month.

Unfortunately, twice within the last 2 weeks she's having the issue with the D4 light blinking again, after using remote start. Just by way of refreshing...........she starts the car remotely, then when she puts the key in the ignition and turns to "run" position, the D4 light starts blinking, and the car does a terrible job at shifting. If she shuts the car off at this point, and tries to start with the key it won't crank. Last time around, she was able to turn the car off and leave it for ~10 mins, at which time it started fine. This most recent time, even after 10 mins she had the D4 light problem.

Has ANYONE run into this? Is there a stray voltage somewhere that's causing the PCM to think it's in 2 gears at once? Can someone PLEASE help me fix this? I've never been more frustrated with a car problem in my life. And it's made worse by the fact it's always when she's trying to get to work, on the other side of town and it's frustrating her to no end as well.