Printer Friendly Forum Posts - delay accessory for cold starts

I installed a viper 5904 + dball on a honda odyssey, and am having issues with the starting of the vehicle in cold weather. the remote start wouldn't work at -5 degC yesterday, but i read on another forum, that these LEV/ULEV vehicles, you should turn off all the accessories. So i went back out, turned the A/C system off, and activated the remote starter and it worked. Today, it was -15degC, and all day i made sure the A/C system was off, and it worked everytime.

I read on another forum that the LEV/ULEV messes things up because it is trying to be efficient when starting, and hence the reason not to load up the vehicle with all the accessories. I am quite confused about the relays, which setup should i install to delay the accessory to activate after the car has been started? does DEI sell something, or can this be programmed in the 5904? I do have a bit writer.

not sure if it would work or not but you could TRY setting the diesel wait timer. This won't delay the accessories or anything, but it will turn the accessories on and get the running before trying to start. That extra delay may allow the voltage to "settle" from everything turning on at once.
May or may not work, but something easy to try.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

You could use a 528t timer, set up to delay up to 3 minutes, it will handle 30 amps, one for each accessory wire.
P.S. I never checked this but shouldn't the ACC output be off until the remote start has successfully engaged?

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Thats a good point. The acc circuit should power up initially but then drop as soon as the starter cranks. Make sure the programming is set for the acc to be off during crank.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

the acc should turn off until the vehicle has started. you must have something wired up incorrectly. temperature should not be a factor at all.

assuming you have a data bypass not key in a box, tach connection, powering correct ign,acc wires, i dont see why it shouldnt work everytime.

when you say at -5 degrees it "won't work" exactly what is happening?

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

Procedure should be thus:-
Activate
Ignition 1
Ignition 2* might even be after starter.
Starter 1 and 2
Engine run, then,
ACC

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Hmmm.. thats weird. B/c I know on all the DEI and Compustar units I've done the acc wire activates for roughly 1 second then shuts off, cranks, and then re-activates... from what i can remember.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Damnation Kenny you want me to put down my tea, go outside in the freezing cold to my car, open it, turn on the radio take the key out and do an R/S. Sod it your probably right.
How about delayed activation for old farts (like me).

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I have the Dball from xpresskit. when it got cold, it would try to start but didn't seem like there was enough juice. read on an acura forum that i should turn it off the ac controls, and it hasn't failed yet. Not sure if it matters but this is the touring model, and has the ECO feature to save on gas.

I have it W2W, tach is at the injector.

I found someone on YouTube achieve the 'AC delay using the 528T' in their odyssey, however, he didn't post how he accomplished it.

I am hoping this will solve my problem.

Did you try just setting the diesel wait timer for a few seconds first? Why spend money on the 528t if that will work. I'm not saying it will necessarily, but its worth a shot. And did you check to make sure your acc circuit was dropping out during crank?

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Old fart says bad battery.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

the car is an 2009, and i keep thinking how could it be the battery? when i first started, i used the virtual tach, but got the low batt message when it would fail every so often. so i went to hardwired tach, and fail rate was even less. Then i decided to cut the accessory 2 wire, to remove the navi/dvd, it didn't fail for over a week. Then this past saturday, during the -5degC, it wouldn't start, it would crank but wouldn't turn over. i got into the van, turned off the ac control, hit the remote start and on it worked. then when it hit -15degC yesterday, everytime i got out of the van, i turned off the ac, and when i remote started on 6 different occasion, it worked everytime. it seems like the less load i put on the system, the more reliable the remote starts.

The only reason i didn't think it was the battery is because whenever the remote start failed, i would jump in, and with the key, never had any start failures. if it is a bad battery, wouldn't it fail with key or remote starter?

I will have to check the ACC volt when i get home from work tonight. and then check battery voltage. Any other suggestions on a test to confirm if the battery is bad? just odd that i never had an issue using the key to start.

Where do you have the unit grounded? Connect your DMM leads to the ground on the unit (right at the connector or as close as possible) and to the 12v input and watch the voltage during the r/s process. If this voltage drops significantly then you either have a bad battery or a bad ground. I know I have heard of a lot of issues with newer honda batteries and remote starters. A local shop has had multiple honda's back because of problems with the battery... so it is entirely possible.

Another thing you can try is to bring the RPM's up slightly (maybe to 1200-1500 when programming tach. This way it won't immediately shut off before the rpms are high enough to keep the vehicle running. I have seen that before especially in cold weather.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Kenny has just about covered everything.
Especially the part about checking the voltage between your R/S grounding point and the constant 12V+ supplies. Do it at the unit.
Plus increasing the revs during programming and of course W2W on the tach, mandatory IMO.
As for you Kenny and that young upstart Ted, I did the test.
Activate,3 seconds,
3 seconds, starts up,
THEN, AFTER engine running, ACC powers up. Clifford G4 + Intellistart.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Hmm... I'll have to check the Python 991 in my car tonight because I could have sworn that my ACC powers up then shuts off during crank. But that isn't going by testing... thats just basing off of my heater controls... which very well could be on my ignition circuit. I'll try to remember to test it tonight and get back to you.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

compustar turns acc, ign, acc off, start, acc back on.

and i would say battery issued. i have a 09 accord and the oem batt sucks. i swapped it out for an optima yellow and never had problems. Trust me, im in the same country as you so i know what the weather does to the honda battery.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

Same vehicle same battery,
Florida 10 years
Virginia, United Kingdom 3-5
Chicago, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Russia, about 3 if you're lucky.
Every cold start (under 35f.) adds about 50% extra load to the battery.
Over here (the UK) car battery people start earning their Christmas bonus from November.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I confirmed it, my Python 991 is:
Activate Starter
Ignition and accessory turns on for roughly 1 second
Accessory turns off, vehicle cranks
Accessory turns back on.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Gents, got home and pulled out the meter.

Reading 12.64 volts at the unit. When i activate the starter, it drops down between 8.5-9.5 volts. then jumps back up to 13.4volts. So when you say voltage drops signifcantly, does 3-4 volt drop qualify?

viper 5904, acc goes on right before the start, drops out, car starts, acc back on.

Yes, that is a significant drop. Where do you have the unit grounded? I would check that first, then check your Constant power connection. If they are both good then you have a bad battery.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

that's a big voltage diff i would say. my battery rests at 12.67 volts, during crank and all ign/acc on lowest it 10.3 volts.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

Tedmond's reading is correct. You've done the equivalent of a "drop" test and the rule of thumb there is that below 10volts is a dud battery.
The other test would be to move all your constant power and grounds to the battery.
Go home, forget remote start, just check the battery the next morning with only the hood open, you should get a reading of 12.6VDC at the battery.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

And...the R/S cycle tells me that my 10 year old Clifford set-up from recycled bits is still the best, WTH would you need ACC till the engine is up and running.
Intellistart apart from programming issues is still streets ahead technically of any other product except Compustar.
That 10 year old time spell is about when the other mob took them over and dumped their designers.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Yea, it makes no sense to me why the acc. comes on for only a second then shuts back off again. My only guess is that internally the relays are powered off the same input and then the starter wire interrupts the acc relay which causes it to drop acc. But that is just a complete guess.

OP. I would do what Howie said first since it will be easy. Temporarily disconnect the hood pin switch (but stay completely clear of the moving engine parts), put your leads directly on the battery and remote start it. This will give you te drop test of the battery itself. If you don't see the significant drop you did before then you know you need to rework your ground and/or 12v constant.

Also, as far as I've seen (maybe I jumped over the post) you still haven't told us where and how you grounded the remote starter.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Thanks for the information.

There is a screw in the wall to the engine, I loosened the screw, and put my ground wires behind the screw and re-tightened. how would i check for a bad ground?

I will have to check the voltages at the battery tonight. Really hoping the fix is the battery.

I hope you meant a BOLT not a screw because screws work loose.
Wrapping loose wires around it is not acceptable, they also work loose.
First as offroadzj and Tedmond will confirm you need a properly crimped and possibly soldered terminal, if that was a 10mm spanner size bolt use an M6 or 6.4mm/1/4" ring terminal, scraping under to bare metal.
How have you connected your cables in the first place?
I see a pattern here.
A couple of ohms resistance either end could explain a lot here.
Taking it to extremes, installing mobile equipment to cars under the old British Standard, we did battery voltage charge tests before and after AND measured the resistance from our grounding point to the vehicle battery NEG. Guess what, few problems. In fact on the earlier (pre-cellular kit) it was mandatory to get both POS and NEG directly to the battery.
P.S. When not sure, I even test grounding bolts!
You've got 2 or 3 in the kick panels.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Exactly what Howie said; always use a bolt and always use a proper ring terminal. Also make sure that you scrape off any paint where the ground will be sitting to make sure you get a solid connection to bare metal.

You are better off using a bolt in the kick panel. I don't know what it is, but I sometimes have issues with firewall bolts... but a lot of times what you think may go to the firewall may not be touching actual metal as there is a lot of padding, sound deadening, etc. that will kill your ground signal.

After you check the battery voltage drop, test the resistance between the ground at the unit connector and the battery... or just move the ground to the kickpanel, to a bolt, with a ring terminal and scraping the paint behind the bolt.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

And on many (right hand drive) Hondas the right hand kickwell is empty, the al;arm ECU goes there or with our Cat 1 units we can even bolt them in, there's as I said 2 + bolts and tapped (M6) threads, nice local ground and yes the kick panel is easier to get at than the bulkhead.
Some vehicles "float" that engine bay bulkhead on rubber mounts rather than welding or as a double bulkhead (big Lexus) to eliminate noise etc. Whereas the kick panel is part of the safety cell and inherently stronger, welded better, thus better "chassis" grounding.
Similar to the old adage about not grounding window closers in the door. I did a Nissan once with solenoid door opening, someone else did the wiring and wanted to know how come it worked with the door open but not closed. No comment.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I do mean bolt. I didn't have ring terminals big enough at the time to get it on the stud., but will pick some up if that is the cause of the voltage drop.

All the other cables, i have soldered.

Tonight, i will check for voltage drop at the battery, if it shows the significant drop again, optima yellow battery it is. If there is no drop, I will check the ground by reading the resistance between the negative battery terminal and ground wire.

Thanks, that was the right answer!

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

personally, i sand down the soldered on terminal as well. only because some ship with a coating so just to be safe, i give it quick sanding. Sometimes i dont use factory bolts. Depending on the vehicle (some may disagree) my ground i tap into the bare metal dash bar support. It's welded to the frame so i know it's a solid ground. I drill a hold and put a machine bolt through and tighten it good. Never had an issued with a car returning.

I do this most of the times,but there are vehicles where majority of the wires are at the kick panel; the ground will be run with others, just for a cleaner install, and easy of access. when you scrape the paint, make sure it goes to bare metal, not just a light scuff.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

I have used the bare dash supports in the past, but you have to be careful when doing so. Most are welded, but some are bolted through a rubber washer to allow some movement (my ram was like this) so you don't get a solid ground. But that is rare so you are usually ok.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

I just checked again, my sequence is definitely as follows:-
Immediately Indicators (lights)
1 sec., 2 clicks.
2 secs., ignition.
3 secs., start.
1 second after start and run, ACC.
Just proves how much more sophisticated my 10 year old kludged together AMERICAN designed and made Clifford was against the opposition and I have the option of ign or RPM locking.
Also to answer someone else's post in the relay section, I have 20 minutes not 10 of RAP which I can program off if desired and no RAP after.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

so i hook up the voltmeter to the battery. Activate the R/S, several attempts, drops to 10.1 volts. Get in the van, turn on AC unit, take more readings, drops to 9.5 volts. Turn on heated seats, drops to 8.5 volts. i can only imagine how low it dropped when i had the navi and dvd hooked up on accessory 2.

Sounds like i need an optima yellow? Or is there anything other test i should do before i change the battery?

As for the ground, i put the wires in a ring terminal, found a bare metal dash support bar with holes, so i did like Tedmond said and put a machine bolt/nut.

The ground will be better off this way anyways, but I would have to say you are looking at a bad battery. Optimas are excellent batteries but you don't HAVE to go with that one. Just don't get another Honda factory battery.. haha.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

any aftermarket brand battery will work. an optima is more of a high end battery, but thats up to you to decide.

a battery from walmart, sears, canadian tire, napa will do. oem batteries are undersized.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

Undersized? I changed a Mopar battery from a 2.8L Voyager DIESEL the other week, 380CCA couldn't believe the battery had lasted this long, 5volts on crank!
I replaced it with a 550CCA.
All OEM batteries, just like OEM alternators are made "just good enough".

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

in my vehicle i believe its undersized. its probably just good enough, but you would be shocked by the battery tray size, vs. the batt size itself.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

If it is not your ground or battery, my 951 I just installed in an Acura has an option to keep ACC off during wait to start. Freaked me out because I had inadvertently turned that option on and I got no accessories the first time I tried to remote start until after it had started.

Your unit may have this option as well. This should leave all ACC power off until the car is started.

We have already determined that it is the battery. A voltage drop down to 9._ Volts during start is a rather large drop. One that the battery should not do no matter what the accessory state is during remote start. We have also already confirmed that the ACC is dropping during crank...

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

alright folks, i went out and purchase a spiral grid battery from canadian tire with 750CCA. Results: starting van with a/c on, drops to 10.1 volts. Starting van with a/c and heated seats, drops to 9.8 volts. So i still have the occasional fail, but not nearly as many as before with the old battery.

I would still like to put a DEI 528T to delay the accessory on start. Looking to accomplish what this gent did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URM0Lp02Iwk

If anyone have ideas on how to wire, please let me know. I am going to purchase the 528T.

what speed do you have your blower motor? i always tell customers to put it on low or mid at most.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

That still doesn't sound right. The battery voltage should not be dropping that much on start. Are you checking the voltage drop during remote start or with the key? And are you checking it at the battery or at the unit? Have you tried running a temporary 12v constant and ground from the battery with a larger gauge (12awg) wire to see if it still drops? You can simply run it outside the car just for the test and then if it works deal with going through the firewall.

If it does in fact just draw that much power and the battery is making it better, then you can try changing the settings to see if you can make the accessory wait until after the vehicle has started to kick on.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

OK, here goes.
You have 2 ACC wires, find the one that controls the HVAC.
One might control the HVAC, wipers and washers.
The other just the radio.
You don't even need the second any way so lets call the one you need ACC 1.
Cut this wire.
With the 528t join the ignition side to ORANGE.
Car side to YELLOW.
12v+ to RED.
BLACK to ground.
BLACK/ WHITE to your status output wire or factory disarm if the unit has one.*
BROWN don't use.
Set the timer to about 15 seconds, you can tell by watching the internal relay contacts move.
*The second method is safer but whichever you use diode inline, band towards the R/S.
Just a thought but are running an amplified audio system? If so definitely try disconnecting ACC 2 from the R/S before you buy a 528t.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

The van is set to auto temp, so the blower kicks in high. I test the at the battery, put my leads in, close the hood, put the meter on the windshield. Get in the van, hit the remote/starter while playing with the accessories.

OLD Battery: A/C- 9.5 volts, Heated Seats-8.5volts

NEW Battery: A/C-10-.1 volts, Heated Seats- 9.5 volts

If i turn off the A/C, i have never had a failure. Which i don't mind living with, however, the Mrs, will often forget to turn off the heated seats, and likes the van warm. I believe it is the silly ACC before starting is the real issue here. Wife has an 06 acura TL, with a viper 5902 installed by a DEI dealer. She always leaves the heated seats and auto temp set high, and mentioned she has a few failures as well. Last night, it happened on the TL, and she called. I told her to turn the key to the ACC, turn off the A/C, remove the key, and activate the remote starter, and it worked.

Howie, I have already disconnected the ACC2. For the wiring of the 528T, I have the thick Accessory Output soldered to the ACC1, i should leave that connection alone? Then cut the ACC1, and hook up the yellow/orange wire. Should i be concerned with soldering the smaller gauge yellow/orange wire to the thick ACC1 wire?The viper 5904 does have a -200mA status output that i am not using, so i will connect that to the BLACK/ white wire, do i still need the diode?

Connect after your join, yes to the diode it's a precaution.
Yellow/Orange? I don't know the year of your vehicle bit neither Directwire for Canada or the US list that colour from 05-11.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Would it matter if i connect the 528T yellow/orange wires to the point A or point B? posted_image

No but since there's electronics involved stick to my list, it's proven.
Orange = 87a
Yellow = 30
Brown = 87
Red = 86 or not relevant
Black = 85 or not relevant
BLACK/ white =85 or 86 if you cut the blue loop (don't in this application).

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Howie,

I am going to go by your suggestion, but just wanted to clarify where to tap in. I have a picture with point A and point B.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/IwrTupigbCej-d4xrlfCm9kZWJgHhHRQDrpibi5nr7A?feat=directlink

Can you also recommend diode number?

1N4004.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I have just ordered the 528T on ebay, should get it in a week or so. I will pick up the diode. 2 more questions: do i have to fuse the 12volt red wire? fuse size? And if you would kindly look at the picture in the link above and advise if it makes a difference which side i tap the 528 on the ACC1 line.

That drawing doesn't really tell you anything!
Look at this:-
acc_delay.bmp

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Now here is a question Howie. Why cut the factory wire? If it is starting fine with the key then why not just connect the acc from the r/s to the 528T, then the 528T to the accessory wire in the car???

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

As per the wiring info on this site, i connected the ACC1 at the plug in the left kick panel. I am not sure if i should connect the 528T closer to the plug in the panel, or on the other side. No idea where the switch is.

Of course, if i could just tap into the R/S ACC1 line as Kenny has mentioned, none of the above matters, and that would be nice and easy.

You're absolutely right, that's the problem with thinking up stuff on the fly posted_image

6EF_acc_delay.bmp

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Gents, i had a couple of failures this weekend even with the A/C off. I currently have it on Tach, and it doesn't appear to crank long enough, it tries 3x, and fails, then sends a low tach signal error message. If i get in the van, and use the key, i notice it requires a little long holding then what the R/S tries. With the key, never had a failure.

I am thinking i have two options: either increase the tach mode starter release with the bitwriter, if i set it to max of 20, will that help me with the crank time? Or i just go to voltage sense and increase the crank time for more reliability?

try voltage sense for now and increase crank time. see if that helps.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

Another trick I've learned is to bring the RPM's up slightly before programming tach. Depending on the air temperature at the time of the install, the engine may not have required a cold start RPM increase... therefore the r/s is sensing the RPM and cutting off before the vehicle can run itself. Don't bring it up too high otherwise you'll have the exact opposite in the summer, but just a few hundred RPMS should do it. I usually program it around 1200rpm depending on the vehicle.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

the manual states to program when the vehicle reaches the lowest possible revs, but i always program on a cold engine. yet to have a problematic vehicle.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

Exactly. On a cold engine, the rpm's are usually higher. However if the install was done in a heated garage or with a warm engine, you won't have that initial increased RPM and that can cause issues.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Surely I've mentioned at least increasing the revs during programming before on this marathon post, even if I forgot the obvious "extend the crank time" routine.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Confirm January 16th. was any action taken by the first poster?

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I know the original poster may be past this already, but why wouldn't turning menu 3 option 10 to off not accomplish what he needs.

This turns ACC power off during wait to start. So even though it is not a diesel, the ACC will remain off until the vehicle cranks.

Why the need to cut more wires and add another timer?

I'm not familiar with that option, but does that only turn the ACC off if the wait-to-start wire is connected or does it not matter if the WTS is connected or not?

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

From the 5904 manual

10. Accessory during Diesel Start Delay

1. On: the Accessory outputs (H3/3 high current and H2/22 low current) will be ON during diesel start delay

2. Off: the Accessory outputs (H3/3 high current and H2/22 low current) will be OFF during diesel start delay

So whether the start delay is based off of the wire or the delay it should leave ACC off. Accidentally turned it off when installing a 951 into my Acura and freaked out when I didn't have any ACC the first time I tried to RS.

So I know it works with the 15 sec delay and assume it would work with the option set to WTS wire. It just will not bring up the ACC until the unit tries to start.

Opelap, your last sentence :-
"It just will not bring up the ACC until the unit tries to start".
Is self defeating and entirely moot, the desired result is to have ACC on AFTER starting.
I still think the combo of increasing revs during programming, extend crank time and the already purchased new battery is the answer.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

howie ll wrote:

I still think the combo of increasing revs during programming, extend crank time and the already purchased new battery is the answer.

^^This!!

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

howie ll wrote:

Opelap, your last sentence :-
"It just will not bring up the ACC until the unit tries to start".
Is self defeating and entirely moot, the desired result is to have ACC on AFTER starting.
I still think the combo of increasing revs during programming, extend crank time and the already purchased new battery is the answer.

Well I assumed since the ACC is shut off during crank already, that would be the end result. Maybe my sentence was not clear.

So if the RS does not power the ACC until the delay is over (which could be instantly with it set to WTS wire right?) and the RS cranks immediately after the delay, then I would expect the behavior of the car to have no ACC until after crank.

Not so? Just trying to understand

When I set it to off on my unit, the ACC never came up. Now I had other issues at the time so the car would crank but not start, so I did not pay close attention to what happened after crank, but assume that it would have brought the ACC up after it started.

Yes there was some confusion, but the rest of your last post was IMO absolutely correct. My (Clifford G4 R/S) doesn't turn on the ACC until
AFTER the R/S is successfully enabled.
The whole points is my statement about increasing revs and crank time is again, IMO the whole answer.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

When i changed to the new battery, it helped a lot, the failures were less, the battery voltage drops are no longer dipping into 8.x volts..

All tach learning was/is done in warm garage. I did try programming it at 1200RPM, and getting even fewer failures. After reading your posts, i decided to learn the tach at even a higher rpm: 1500 RPM, and the pass 3 days has been good, no failures whatsoever. i guess 1200 is good for some cars, but with this fully loaded van, a higher RPM is required. Waiting for some really cold days to confirm if this is the end of the saga.

I still don't understand the technical part of how learning a tach at a higher RPM extendeds the crank time?

Praise the Lord, someone finally listened and took notice. posted_image

Raising the revs doesn't necessarily extend the crank time, you might still need to do that, in lay terms it just makes the ignition/start system "try" harder.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

tach is AC, for example if you program it with a low rev count of say 800rpm. the unit would sense 800rpm or ~13 cycles per second and during start if it "senses" 13cycles it releases the starter.

if you program at 1500rpm, it would look for 25 cycles/sec until it released the starter wire. It doesn't necessarily fully increase start time, more like crank as long as you need, until it finds the programmed tach signal. In simple terms tach = indication to let the brain know when to stop cranking.

i hope i'm right on this one.

-------------
Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

offroadzj wrote:

Posted: January 16, 2012 at 2:08 PM
Another thing you can try is to bring the RPM's up slightly (maybe to 1200-1500 when programming tach. This way it won't immediately shut off before the rpms are high enough to keep the vehicle running. I have seen that before especially in cold weather.

And all could have been solved back on page 2.... lmao. Just busting your balls OP; no hard feelings.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Ooh Kenny that's nasty. I'm the cynical one here and I've already pointed out that I mentioned this on Jan 16th. SO THERE! posted_image

Ted, spot on you explained it better than me and also pointed out as I hope our original poster noted that he might still have to increase crank time.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Kenny, when you first posted that, i was thrown off because "high enough to keep the vehicle running", the vehicle wasn't running. Anyhow, i did read back and tried it on the high end of 1500 as you suggested, thanks for the tip. I still don't think this was a waste, as i still believe that honda battery was no good.

Tedmond, thanks for the explanation.

Howie, i was reading about the crank time, i don't think on the vipers, i can increase crank time while using tach sense. Crank times are only for voltage sense or non-monitoring.

Thank you all for the sticking in here, i have learned so much, mainly, just pay an installer next time :).

Oh I agree that it wasn't a waste, and that your battery was still part of the issue. I just enjoy busting balls when I can. Glad you got everything worked out.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

so i had another fail yesterday afternoon: low tach signal error message again. got in the van, and when i started with the key, i paid attention to the RPM gauge, it would jump as high as 1500RPM and drop to idle at 1200RPM, after a few minutes, it would settle into 900RPM. On 4 different occasions last night, when i started the van with they key, it would always jump to 1300-1500RPM. So i have now learn the tach at 1800RPM, hopefully, i won't ever see that low tach signal error again.

The problem you may have with that is during the summer. You may find the car over-cranking in warm weather since the engine will be warm and not require an initial high rpm. It may not happen, but I would still keep an eye on it.

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Ref: earlier praising the Lord, do you think you could follow my third piece of advice after the battery change and increasing the revs?
Extend crank time!!!

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

P.S. Tach learning at 1800 is ridiculous, don't go more than 1200RPM.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

i am at a lost then, when i start with the key, it jumps to 1300-1500 RPM. If i learn it at 1200RPM, it will not start on some occasions.

If i extend the crank time, can't use the tach, it will be voltage sense only.

Could it be a low vs high tach threshold setting issue? Does the unit you have give you the option (sometimes through a jumper or programming option) for tach threshold?

-------------
Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

X 2 with offroadzj, you REALLY can't change crank time in tach mode?

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

There are no threshold option on my viper 5904.

Howie, per the manual

< lang=KO size=2 face=Futura-Book>< lang=KO size=2 face=Futura-Book>

3. Cranking Time

< size=2 face=Futura-Book>< size=2 face=Futura-Book>

• < lang=KO size=2 face=Futura-Book>< lang=KO size=2 face=Futura-Book>0.6/0.8/1.0/1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2.0/4.0 seconds: determines the starter output duration during

cranking for the ‘Voltage’ and the ‘Off’ Engine Checking Mode options

Unless you mean change the

14. Tach Mode Starter Release
1. Normal: the starter output will release normally during cranking (50% of the learned tachometer
value)
2. Increase: the starter output will release later during cranking (at 35% of the learned tachometer
value)
3. Decrease: the starter output will release sooner during cranking (at 35% of the learned tachometer
value)

If i go with Kennys suggestion plus option 2 of the tach mode starter release, 1200-1500 RPM,

1200+35% =1620 RPM to 1500+35%=2025RPM