Printer Friendly Forum Posts - ignition kill relay on alarm not working

I've just installed my alarm which includes an ignition kill relay. I've wired it up to the ignition wire.
It's a basic relay, so both green wires in series to the ignition wire (which i've cut between the connections) one wire to the alarm and one to permanent 12V.

The alarm is triggered in arm when the key is turned to ACC, but then the alarm goes off in ignition position! Also the car starts when the alarm is in arm. Which it shouldn't.

I'm just wondering whether the alarm and 12V wires are the wrong way around?

Thanks for any help.

I think i've wired the alarm trigger and the 12V wires the wrong way around as there is a diode in the middle of them.

Would this be the reason why the alarm turns off when i turn the key to ingition once it's been triggered??

Show us what connections you made to which relay terminals, also you haven't mentioned either make and model of car or alarm.
P.S. NEVER cut the ignition. It's too dangerous, things come adrift whilst you're moving, only cut the starter.
Here's how to correctly wire it:-cut.bmp
Also don't feed from a constant, relay always engaged, = flat battery overnight.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Also connect wire on alarm marked "ignition input" to ignition.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

thanks for that howie,
the car is a 2000 ford fiesta.

so from that diagram, i should have wired the relays switched 12V to the ignition wire (as that is switched) instead of a constant 12V.

I've no idea what colour the starter wire is either, I originally wanted that for the relay but couldn't find it so i just used the ignition.

oh...and the ignition wire is wired up and works correctly.

https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp~TID~58946

just found this, will look for the start wire tomorrow.

the link i just posted says the starter is blk/blu - i'm 100% sure that's the ignition wire that i've used.

@Howie - since i've used the ignition wire as the immobiliser, can i also use the ignition as the relays source of switched 12V?

if so, which end would i connect it to since the ignition wire is cut. 87 or 30?

You shouldn't use the ignition as the immobilizer. If something ever happened and the alarm failed armed it would cut your engine off... and if you are traveling down the highway, that could become a very bad situation. ALWAYS use the starter wire as the immobilizer.

I would disconnect the relay from your ignition wire, solder the ignition wire back together along with the ignition input to the alarm, then re-install the relay onto your starter wire.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

And there should be no doubt in your mind which wire is the 12v constant vs ignition vs starter. Always test your wires to verify everything. Don't just go solely by the diagrams / charts.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

offroadzj wrote:

You shouldn't use the ignition as the immobilizer. If something ever happened and the alarm failed armed it would cut your engine off... and if you are traveling down the highway, that could become a very bad situation. ALWAYS use the starter wire as the immobilizer.

I would disconnect the relay from your ignition wire, solder the ignition wire back together along with the ignition input to the alarm, then re-install the relay onto your starter wire.

thanks. I'm going to do that....solder the ignition wire back together, then, use the ignition for the relays switched 12v, and use the starter wire for the immobiliser.

thanks

If I remember right, most of the info on that referral is correct.
Ignition = black
Starter = BLACK/ blue
Indicators blue and blue/red, either at the steering column or right hand kick well.
Dome or courtesy or interior light light trigger is in the left hand "A" pillar or kick panel.
Lock and unlock wires require two relays but I won't explain that until you tell us what alarm and whether it has a 2 wire or a 6 wire lock unlock system.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

right......I had it wired like this:

The starter wire (BLACK/ Blue) was used for the immobiliser, so they were wired to 87 and 30 on the relay, and the alarm trigger was wired to 85, and the 86 was wired to ignition.
So all correct.
But it still doesn't work.
I checked the relay with a probe, It works fine when power is put through it - from either 85 or 86. When I connect it to the relay plug that's wired to the above ^^ wires, when I put power through 85 the relay doesn't switch, when I put power through 86 It turns the ignition on.

So why then, when I turn the key does the relay not switch & when the alarm is in "arm" why won't the relay switch when I turn the key, as it will still start?

Couldn't you read the diagram or didn't you even look?
Armed out from alarm to 85.
Ignition BLACK to 86 with diode 1N4004 between 85 and 86, band to 86
Key side to 87a.
Starter side to 30.
87 NOT USED.
Now it's down to you.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

howie ll wrote:

Couldn't you read the diagram or didn't you even look?
Armed out from alarm to 85.
Ignition BLACK to 86 with diode 1N4004 between 85 and 86, band to 86
Key side to 87a.
Starter side to 30.
87 NOT USED.
Now it's down to you.

I printed out the diagram actually, I didn't realise that it made a difference which side 87a and 30 went to. Could that be the problem I they are the wrong way around?

The plug that goes into the relay was sent with the alarm, the thing in the middle of 85 and 86 looks more like a resistor that a diode. It has colour bands around it - which makes me think resistor...

No, unless you're installing a remote start but you wrote 87 and that's wrong, it's 87a and 30.
By convention 87a is the key side and 30 the output or in this case motor side, it helps to stick with the conventions, then problems can be more easily solved.
The resistor is sometimes used instead of a diode, not polarity conscious but less efficient, sounds like the alarm the make of which you still haven't mentioned is a right POS.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

It's only a 4 pin relay so there's no 87, only 87a.
The alarm is a Cyclone 916D5A-15A.

Don't carry on, it probably won't even work, another unknown brand Chinese POS. The relay is the give-away.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

It's all installed already, the 2 stage shock detection works, the ultrasonics work, the remote central locking works, car finding works and so does panic feature. Not bad really.

Except no ignition override yet you say you've wired it in.
BTW I was wrong, it's a UK company.
A whole alarm for the price of some else's dual zone prox. Does that tell you anything?

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I can't knock it for the price!! It's not exactly going on an Evo 8 or Impreza!

I'll swap 87a and 30 around and let you know if it makes a difference.

OK, do that.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

That won't change anything. You mentioned that it is only a 4 pin relay. I have never seen a 4 pin relay that had an 87a (normally closed). All 4 pin relays I've seen are normally closed relays and will not work for your need. YOu must get a 5 pin relay and connect the 87a and 30 terminals.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Actually Kenny some POS Chinese alarms have those relays, 87a and no 87, that's why I thought the OP's alarm was Chinese other wise he hasn't looked or wired it properly just like his wrong assumption with the ignition wire.
The wiring is probably all wrong, hence no ignition override, just like a colour blind person with dyslexia failing to test and verify.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

Wow... I've never seen a 4 pin relay with an 87a. Gotta love those Chinese POS systems.

Regardless what vehicle the system is going into, I'm sure the car is worth more than the $100 or so you are saving. By cheaping out on the system, you run a very high risk of frying your electrical system when the system fails (not if, when). You will end up paying for that little bit you saved plus some. It's worth it to get a quality system and never have to worry about it.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

The 87a and 30 were wired correctly - 87a was keyside and 30 was starter side.

The wire to the alarm from the relay doesn't ground when armed. It's positive. Think that's why the relay is always on.

Every other alarm known to me except Scorpion 20 years ago and the Irish CEL had a NEG output when armed.
Pull the wire from the alarm, arm the alarm and see if it either goes to ground (-) 0v or to 12V+.
If it goes to 12v+, that wire goes to 86 and you ground 85.
Or RTFM.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

No,sorry that won't work either you've definitely wired something wrong.
Could you copy and paste the alarm's wiring or just type them out wire colours and the alarm manufacturer's list?
The very fact that you can activate the alarm tells me you've done something wrong here.
Also offroadjz post about cheap alarms, he's absolutely right, back in the day Rolls Royce only used Clifford Alarms and Alpine Audio, so do most installers, does that tell you anything?

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

By the way there's also an easier way to immobilise a 2000 Fiesta.
Look at the fuse box, a fuse marked I believe "engine" control, or engine relay control pull that or cut the output and she's a dead-un.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

@howie - I will upload a picture of the wiring instructions for you tonight.

I understand what you are saying about cheap alarms, but i really don't have the money for a clifford alarm. I was going to buy a Toad Ai606, which I think would have been the better option. But for £60 working shock, ultrasonics and remote locking is great.

I've spoken to the company I bought the alarm from, and explained what's wrong and what i've tried.

I have to send the brain and the fobs back for testing as the alarm isn't sending a negative trigger to the relay when armed.

And like i've mentioned before, the alarm is triggered in arm when the key is turned to accessory but then turns off in ignition!

I'll still upload the installation instructions for you to look at.

What wire did you connect the alarm constant and ignition input to? Does the alarm constant show 12v regardless of key position? And does the ignition input show 12v when the key is turned to 'on' and then maintain that 12v throughout the starting process?

Finally, where do you have the unit grounded? It sounds like you may have grounded it to a live circuit and the unit is losing it's ground signal when the ignition is turned on. Or the brain is no good and hopefully hasn't already caused extensive damage.

I completely understand what you are saying about not being able to afford the Clifford, but you really need to look at it this way (using random numbers just as an example). Would you rather spend $50 on the alarm now then end up spending possibly $1000+ down the road when that unit fails (again not if... when). Or would you rather just hold off on buying anything until you can afford the Clifford, Compustar, DEI, etc. and end up only spending say $200 total. I speak completely out of experience. I couldn't tell you how many times I had someone come in with some ebay special that was having problems. And every single time it ended up being the unit fried and took out some other piece of electronics in the car. Including one that completely fried the entire ECU at the cost of well over $1000. I would return the one you have and wait til you can afford a better quality unit. Save yourself a MAJOR headache down the road.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

Compustar in the UK Kenny? Lord I wish.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

True. Well maybe someday.

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Kenny
Owner / Technician
KKD Garage LLC
Albany, NY 12205

https://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/grishenko45/alarm/a2.jpg

https://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/grishenko45/alarm/a3.jpg

https://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/grishenko45/alarm/a4.jpg

here are the diagrams....

Lousy photos, could you list wires?
From the first photo use type A NEG locking, top left.
Second photo didn't come out.
Third, the white shouldn't go to the ACC, only your black ignition wire because the yellow Fiesta ACC wire DUMPS on crank.
Also the fact that they are telling you to cut the ignition is a no-no!!!
Try and print the list, I'll give you the corresponding car wires.
Except at this stage I would throw the whole thing away, contact Armour Autos, find a dealer list and buy one of the new Code 1051 alarms for about £70, just released in the UK and does what it says on the box.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

I've wired it up as positive locking, and it works perfectly. I looked up which model fiestas use what locking, and MK4s were negative and mk5s were positive.. I have no issues with the remote central locking.

this is a slightly better image - you can read the wire colours..

https://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/grishenko45/alarm/a5.jpg

What do you mean about the ACC "dumps" on crank?

Should I try to connect the white wire to the ignition wire instead of the ACC and try the starter kill again?

Never mind I've just looked properly at the picture, this effort was better, just cut the starter instead of the ignition coil or even the fuse I mentioned in an earlier post.
Also refer to my original starter cut diagram.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.

The starter is cut and currently wired exactly as your cut diagram.

Other 4 pin relay diagrams for starter kill, say to loop 86 to 30, would this work?

Also there is no ground for the alarm, except the siren ground.

hang on....think i've just realised what i've done wrong. can't believe i've not missed it either, i've wired the ground (- battery on the diagram) to the ACC.

At least you found it having probably fried the first alarm.
Ref. the wiring, I think I already alluded to that on page 3.
Crikey 5 bloody pages based on mistakes and not listening.
Read my signature lines please.
No key switch side to 87a and starter side to 30.
Ignition to 86 and white from alarm to 85.
Running a constant wire to 86 will drain your battery over night if the alarm is left on.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.