remote start and + inputs

Hello everyone,

I have received my remote start and am planning on installing it this weekend.

I am a bit confused about some of the polarity's though. On the wiring diagram that came with the remote start, there are inputs that are (+) and there are inputs that are also (-). What exactly is the difference? Wouldn't a positive input and negative input both have the same voltage?

I know this might sound like a dumb question, it just isn't making logical sense to me.

Thank you!

Also there are (+) and (-) outputs. What is the difference?

What are you installing, and what are you installing it into?

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I am installing an Avital 4103 remote start system, into my 1996 Pontiac Grand Am 3.1L.

1996 Pontiac Grand AM = Passlock1 and Type A door locks...   Gonna needs some relays or a Directed 451M door lock module.

Bulldog Security has some good info and pictures for you :  https://www.bulldogsecurity.com/bdnew/vehiclewiringdiagrams.aspx

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Soldering is fun!

+ means a positive voltage. Usually +12V. - usually just means ground. For example, "(-)unlock" is just a quick pulse of ground.

Please realize your Grand Am has positive triggering door locks, but the Avital 4103 outputs a negative pulse. So you'll want a DEI 451M to interface with them. Plug the 451M into the 4103 instead of the lock/unlock harness. On the 451M, the purple wire with the fuse goes to +12V constant, the blue/black goes to your unlock wire and the GREEN/ black goes to your lock wire. The white and brown will not be used. Tape them off.

Also please be aware your car has THREE ignition wires, but the Avital 4103 only has two positive outputs. So you'll want to use a relay. 85 to ground, 86 spliced into one of the other ignition wires from the avital, 30 to +12V constant, and 87 to your third ignition wire in the ignition harness. 87a will go unused.

I don't have Directechs on this computer, but kreg's post shows the Grand Am doesn't have a third ignition wire, but the12volt's wiring database shows that it does. It's possible it does have it and it's not needed, so most just ignore it?

firebirdude wrote:

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+ means a positive voltage. Usually +12V. - usually just means ground. For example, "(-)unlock" is just a quick pulse of ground.

Please realize your Grand Am has positive triggering door locks, but the Avital 4103 outputs a negative pulse. So you'll want a DEI 451M to interface with them. Plug the 451M into the 4103 instead of the lock/unlock harness. On the 451M, the purple wire with the fuse goes to +12V constant, the blue/black goes to your unlock wire and the GREEN/ black goes to your lock wire. The white and brown will not be used. Tape them off.

Also please be aware your car has THREE ignition wires, but the Avital 4103 only has two positive outputs. So you'll want to use a relay. 85 to ground, 86 spliced into one of the other ignition wires from the avital, 30 to +12V constant, and 87 to your third ignition wire in the ignition harness. 87a will go unused.

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I am not sure I understand what a negative pulse is exactly. Can you elaborate on that please?

The Avital unit just outputs a quick pulse of ground on the lock/unlock wires when you press the lock/unlock button on the keyfob.

On most cars, the door lock wires sit at +12V all the time. When you press the lock/unlock button on your door panel, a quick pulse of ground is sent which triggers the lock/unlock function. Your Grand Am is the exact opposite. Your door lock wires sit at ground all the time and need a +12V pulse to trigger them. The Avital unit doesn't output +12V pulses, it outputs ground pulses. Hence your need to switch it with the 451M.

firebirdude wrote:

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The Avital unit just outputs a quick pulse of ground on the lock/unlock wires when you press the lock/unlock button on the keyfob.

On most cars, the door lock wires sit at +12V all the time. When you press the lock/unlock button on your door panel, a quick pulse of ground is sent which triggers the lock/unlock function. Your Grand Am is the exact opposite. Your door lock wires sit at ground all the time and need a +12V pulse to trigger them. The Avital unit doesn't output +12V pulses, it outputs ground pulses. Hence your need to switch it with the 451M.

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Lol I am understanding it a little bit better but still confused. Thank you for helping me by the way!

So what is the difference between a 12V+ pulse and a ground pulse? Aren't they both output pulses of 12V from the remote start module?

lol I know you're trying, but you do realize +12V and ground are not the same thing, correct?

So a pulse of +12V and a pulse of ground still aren't the same thing. The remote start module is capable of sending +12V pulses and/or ground pulses. When it's not sending a pulse, it's simply "open" (neither positive or negative, it's just an incomplete circuit). It's just unfortunate that Avital (DEI) decided to make the door lock outputs only output a ground pulse. I wish it had a simple jumper like the parking lights do.

I strongly suggest getting a professional involved in your install. Again, not trying to be rude. I've just seen my share of horror come from inexperience. I'd hate to see your car go up in flames for a $100 remote start...

Lol I know I might sound crazy, but I actually have a lot of wiring experience along with experience of working on a cars electrical system. I just have never worked with these door locks before, let me think over the advice you have provided me, and I will throw some more questions at you if I think of some.

Okay so after looking at some relay diagrams I think I understand how the Type A locks work vs the Type B. Let me know if I am on the right track and correct me if I am wrong.

So the Type A, have 3 wires. One will have 12V+ all the time. When the lock or unlock switch is pushed, the lock or unlock wire will have 12V+, activating the stock relays.

Type B, also have 3 wires. One will be connected to ground. Then when the lock/unlock switch is pressed, the lock or unlock wire will connect to ground activating the stock relays.

Therefore, in my case, my remote start only sends out a negative pulse (completes the circuit), while I need it to send out a 12V+ pulse.

https://www.the12volt.com/relays/page1.asp

And I could use this (first) configuration to wire in two relays for the lock and unlock... or use the 451M?

hey patthehat033, are you near KCMO?

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

Unfortunately no, I am near St. Louis. Are you from KC?

40 miles south of KC

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yuk
quiet rural missouri, near KC.
If your system moves you physically and not emotionally, you have wasted your money.

Ah so we are a pretty good distance from each other! lol

patthehat033 wrote:

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Lol I know I might sound crazy, but I actually have a lot of wiring experience along with experience of working on a cars electrical system. I just have never worked with these door locks before, let me think over the advice you have provided me, and I will throw some more questions at you if I think of some.

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Alright, so the (-) door triggers work like this. This may be recursive, but most of the chassis is ground, or (-). When you open a door, the switch on the door jamb comes in contact with the chassis and feeds a (-) ground back to the circuit. This is what makes the lights come on and show the door ajar light (if applicable) on the dash. This (-) trigger is only half of the circuit. Somewhere in the computer is a relay that is triggered or an IC that monitors the input. Input being the (-).

Back to the car alarm... The alarm looks for a (+) positive feed to trigger its relay. This will tell the alarm the door is open. Instead of the 'brain' looking for (-), it already has (-) and needs (+) to complete the circuit. Of course, this may be your issue - that your car has a (-) trigger.

So when your car has a (-) trigger and you need a (+), the easiest way to fix this is to use a relay. All the relay does is flips a switch electronically by energizing a coil, which creates an electromagnet. In between this electromagnet is a 'plate' that moves when the electromagnet is energized. This creates the circuit.

The electromagnet requires a (-) and a (+) to work. A basic 4-pin relay will suffice for your installation.

The Coil:
Pin 85 - (-) ground
Pin 86 - (+) 12v

The Circuit:
Pin 30 - The load (what will be consuming power or ground)
Pin 84 - The source (where the load gets its power or ground from)

On a 5 pin relay, you have pin 84a. Pin 84a is in a normally closed position, meaning it completes the circuit when it is not energized.

If the coil is not energized, pin 30 and 84a are connected.
If the coil is energized, pin 30 and 84 are connected.

Pin 84 or 84a can use (-) or (+) interchangeably. Depending on what polarity you need of course.

Back to your car... You have a (-) door trigger. Your alarm needs a (+) door trigger. Use your car's (-) door trigger to energize the relay, so hook it up to pin 85. Because this pin is the switch to make the relay work, you still need your (+) to make the coil work. Hook pin 86 to a (+) 12V constant source (meaning it doesn't ever turn off). You also need to provide a constant (+) source for your load, so hook up pin 84 to a (+) 12V source as well. Lastly, your (+) door trigger on the alarm will go on pin 30.

To recap:
Pin 85: Car's door trigger
Pin 86: Positive 12V Constant
Pin 84: Positive 12V Constant
Pin 30: Remote Start (+) door trigger



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No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)

freqsounds wrote:

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patthehat033 wrote:

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Lol I know I might sound crazy, but I actually have a lot of wiring experience along with experience of working on a cars electrical system. I just have never worked with these door locks before, let me think over the advice you have provided me, and I will throw some more questions at you if I think of some.

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Alright, so the (-) door triggers work like this. This may be recursive, but most of the chassis is ground, or (-). When you open a door, the switch on the door jamb comes in contact with the chassis and feeds a (-) ground back to the circuit. This is what makes the lights come on and show the door ajar light (if applicable) on the dash. This (-) trigger is only half of the circuit. Somewhere in the computer is a relay that is triggered or an IC that monitors the input. Input being the (-).

Back to the car alarm... The alarm looks for a (+) positive feed to trigger its relay. This will tell the alarm the door is open. Instead of the 'brain' looking for (-), it already has (-) and needs (+) to complete the circuit. Of course, this may be your issue - that your car has a (-) trigger.

So when your car has a (-) trigger and you need a (+), the easiest way to fix this is to use a relay. All the relay does is flips a switch electronically by energizing a coil, which creates an electromagnet. In between this electromagnet is a 'plate' that moves when the electromagnet is energized. This creates the circuit.

The electromagnet requires a (-) and a (+) to work. A basic 4-pin relay will suffice for your installation.

The Coil:
Pin 85 - (-) ground
Pin 86 - (+) 12v

The Circuit:
Pin 30 - The load (what will be consuming power or ground)
Pin 84 - The source (where the load gets its power or ground from)

On a 5 pin relay, you have pin 84a. Pin 84a is in a normally closed position, meaning it completes the circuit when it is not energized.

If the coil is not energized, pin 30 and 84a are connected.
If the coil is energized, pin 30 and 84 are connected.

Pin 84 or 84a can use (-) or (+) interchangeably. Depending on what polarity you need of course.

Back to your car... You have a (-) door trigger. Your alarm needs a (+) door trigger. Use your car's (-) door trigger to energize the relay, so hook it up to pin 85. Because this pin is the switch to make the relay work, you still need your (+) to make the coil work. Hook pin 86 to a (+) 12V constant source (meaning it doesn't ever turn off). You also need to provide a constant (+) source for your load, so hook up pin 84 to a (+) 12V source as well. Lastly, your (+) door trigger on the alarm will go on pin 30.

To recap:
Pin 85: Car's door trigger
Pin 86: Positive 12V Constant
Pin 84: Positive 12V Constant
Pin 30: Remote Start (+) door trigger

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Thank you for the lengthy explanation, I appreciate it! However, I do want to mention I am very familiar with how relays function and how to wire them.

I do have a question though, thank you for explaining the door trigger function. Although, do I even need to mess with the door trigger, since I am not installing an alarm on my car? I am just installing a remote start and the unlock and lock functions.

kreg357 wrote:

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1996 Pontiac Grand AM = Passlock1 and Type A door locks...   Gonna needs some relays or a Directed 451M door lock module.

Bulldog Security has some good info and pictures for you :  https://www.bulldogsecurity.com/bdnew/vehiclewiringdiagrams.aspx

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Will I need to bypass the Passlcok1 system? I noticed that on my stock radio it had a theftlock LED light on it. I am guessing that means the chip was in the radio. I have had an aftermarket radio for over a year and the car starts fine, I did not have to wire up the anti-theft system when I installed the aftermarket radio, I don't believe.

With Passlock1, there is no transponder chip.  Instead, the ignition key cylinder uses an internal resistance value to generate a
specific voltage that is sent to the vehicles Instrument Panel Cluster for decoding.  If the IPC receives the correct voltage value
at the right time, it sends a signal to the vehicles Powertrain Control Module that enables the fuel system.  The Bulldog Security
wiring diagram for your car lists the Passlock1 wire colors and there is a photo of these wires at the steering column. 

There are many Passlock1 bypass modules available.  The Directed 555L, 555LW, 556LW modules are compatible with the 4103
R/S but might be hard to find ( DEI lists them as "Retired" ).    Fortin lists their PASSLOCK-SL2 V2 module and iDatalink has the
ADS TBSL PL module.   The Fortin and iDatalink modules do not require cutting the Passlock1 resistance wire.  These bypass
modules will cost between $20 and $40.  If you like relays, have a Digital Multi Meter and an assortment of resistors available,
you could do it the old fashioned way.  Here is a link to instructions / diagram :  https://documents.audiovox.com/700056.pdf

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Soldering is fun!

kreg357 wrote:

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With Passlock1, there is no transponder chip.  Instead, the ignition key cylinder uses an internal resistance value to generate a
specific voltage that is sent to the vehicles Instrument Panel Cluster for decoding.  If the IPC receives the correct voltage value
at the right time, it sends a signal to the vehicles Powertrain Control Module that enables the fuel system.  The Bulldog Security
wiring diagram for your car lists the Passlock1 wire colors and there is a photo of these wires at the steering column. 

There are many Passlock1 bypass modules available.  The Directed 555L, 555LW, 556LW modules are compatible with the 4103
R/S but might be hard to find ( DEI lists them as "Retired" ).    Fortin lists their PASSLOCK-SL2 V2 module and iDatalink has the
ADS TBSL PL module.   The Fortin and iDatalink modules do not require cutting the Passlock1 resistance wire.  These bypass
modules will cost between $20 and $40.  If you like relays, have a Digital Multi Meter and an assortment of resistors available,
you could do it the old fashioned way.  Here is a link to instructions / diagram :  https://documents.audiovox.com/700056.pdf

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Thank you for the information. That is very useful! I have some questions about the diagram you may be able to answer. When it says "Black Bulb Check Wire" is that the same as the "Black Passlock Ground Wire"? Also for the "Ignition 2" and "Ignition 3," would I actually be using "Ignition 1" and "Ignition 2" on my remote start... without the relay on "Ignition 3 (Ignition 2 on mine)"?

Also I noticed some other people bypassing the system without relays, they just put a resistor between the yellow and black wire, can this be done as well?