Printer Friendly Forum Posts - Car Stalls After Starting, Python 1400xp

Hello all,

I have a 1996 Buick Riviera. I have had the Python 1400xp Remote starter installed for over 4 years. Over the summer it randomly stopped working. The issue I am having is that the the car would start up fine, but seems as if the rpms slowly drop and the car stalls out. It usually runs for like 5 seconds. It then tries to start the car up 2 more times with no success. I have checked all the wiring and it they all seem to be correct.

I would appreciate any help since winter is just around the corner.

Thanks

Is there any security light on?

The shutdown diagnostic shows 3 flashes - "low or no RPM"

Does anybody know how to test the Heavy Gauge Relay Satellite?

It seems like the fuel pump is not staying on after a RS, and the engine stops. Then won't restart because there's no fuel pressure. It probably isn't a VATS or pass-key issue, because that system will not shut down a running engine if it detects a bypass-error, but will turn on the SECURITY light.

The relay satellite has fuses in its red input wires. Should be 3 of them. Check these first of course. Then follow the heavy wires to where they interface with the car's ignition wires. You're interested in the car's pink, pink/wht or white, orange, and brown wires. (If your radio never worked with the RS, then the brown wire won't be connected to the RS, which has nothing to do with the current stops-running).

Test each of these wires for +12 volts when a RS is commanded. Particularly the pink/wht or white IGN-2 wire. If one output is "dead" you could wire a new external relay for the dead relay within the satellite.

Thanks Dave,

Hope you had a great thanksgiving!

I tested all of the wires, and I am getting good voltage when the rs activates. I checked all the fuses associated with the re, and as well as the fuses for the car itself. The connections were all good and soldered.

I guessed it was the rs itself and picked up an avital 4103. I installed it yesterday and I have the exact same problem.

The shutdown diagnostics keeps showing low rpm or voltage. The voltage when running is 14.5, So I ran the tach wire to the fuel injector. Same problem.

if the key is turned to the on position the rs will start and the car will run perfectly. Once the key is turned off the car stalls out again.

Not being smart, but did you do a tach relearn after connecting the tach wire.

One other thought, what happens if the vehicle is remote started and you keep the idle up to about 1500rpms or so? Does it stay running?

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shafferny wrote:

Not being smart, but did you do a tach relearn after connecting the tach wire.

relearn tach, and make sure you have all ignition wires powered up. you mentioned the car stays running with the key in the on position.

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Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

Hi guys, sorry I haven't responded yet, I stopped getting email alerts for replys.

Anyway, I did the tach relearn, I set it to sense voltage, and I also used the setting to "off" the only difference with that is that the time the starter engages.

All of the ignition wires are energized and have the same voltage (until stall out) during remote start or by using the key.

I will try to rev the engine tomorrow morning and see if that has any effect on it.

I was told that the it could by a problem with the ignition switch in the car itself? I tried wiggling the wires both at the switch and at the firewall and it didn't help.

Not sure where else to check. I pulled up an egr engine code and a tcc solenoid code, those are new, so I assume they are not related, but I figured Id mention it.

Thanks again,

Dave

darinus wrote:

if the key is turned to the on position the rs will start and the car will run perfectly. Once the key is turned off the car stalls out again.

you definitely missed an ignition wire. this particular vehicle has 3 ignition wires. PINK, PINK/WHITE, PURPLE / WHITE all (+)

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Ted
2nd Year Tier 1 Medical School
Still installing as a hobby...pays for groceries
Compustar Expert

tedmond wrote:

this particular vehicle has 3 ignition wires. PINK, PINK/WHITE, PURPLE / WHITE all (+)

It's no different than other 90's GM's.

PINK
PINK/WHT OR WHITE
ORANGE (can be treated as an accy) Is needed for electric cooling fans and HVAC.
BROWN ACCY (radio) (and windows in the Buick)

Pur is a starter circuit in GM's. I've never seen purple as an IGN circuit in any GM. Always starter. There is a pur/white "crank signal" in many 90's era GM's, but it is fused, and energized by the big pur wire at the IGN switch. No action needed for RS installation.

The OP stated that they system worked fine for years, and this is a new condition. I agree that one of the IGN isn't powered (probably the white or pnk/wht, as that is the passkey), causing the problem.

If I read the OP correctly, this isn't an installation error, it's a malfunction.

Will it RS and run with the key in the ignition, in the OFF position?

Did it learn the tach when you did the tach learn?

96 Riviera's have Passkey. Is that bypass intact?

TCC solenoid code may be related. There are codes that set if the state on the solenoid control line doesn't match what the ECM is commanding. If there is no power to the trans (white wire), the solenoid state will be 0-volt, but the ECM expects it to be 12V because the ECM is not commanding the solenoid on.

There's some more ideas. If both units do the same thing, I'd begin to suspect the passkey bypass.

Good morning,

Correct, the RS worked perfectly fine for a few years.

The passkey is bypassed with a resistor. When I disconnect that resistor, the engine wont start. I when I reconnect it, the engine starts again ans stalls out. I don't think the Passkey stops a running engine and if it did, the engine should shut off, not slowly stall out, so we can assume that the Passkey is not the issue.

Both units have shutdown diagnostics, and they both show a condition of Low voltage. I redid the tach learn. When the car used to start up, there was no Tach wire connected. I since connected it to the Fuel injector wire and still have the same issue.

Back to the ignition switch, anyway this could be faulty and cause the RS not to get enough current to run the car, but runs okay when switched?

Still haven't figured out the problem. Anyone have any other ideas?

I know this sounds dumb, but check the value of the resistor, and make sure its within tolerance. A failed resistor will cause this problem. posted_image

Thanks for the diagram. I will check it out tonight. Would you happen to know what the tolerance should be for the GM key?

its different for every car i believe. In that diagram it shows you how to measure and retrieve the correct resistance.

Have you checked the system ground wire? Is it securely screwed in to bare metal in the vehicle's kick panel?

Have you left the DMM on the power wires to measure system voltage as the vehicle begins to die?

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Don't be a lemming...

I will test the resistance in the key and the resistor tonight when I get home. I will post my results.

I checked the ground, and it seemed okay. I drilled a new hole and regrounded the system with a self tapper, to the steering column support.

The voltage when the car dies is approx. 12.3. The car starts up and makes around 13-14, the drops to the 12's as he car dies out. If I switch the key on as soon as this condition happens the voltage stays as is for a second, and the car begins to run better, then the voltage goes back up.

Any chance this could be a faulty ignition switch?

I recently threw an EGR and a TCC code. I am looking to swap out he EGR tonight, not sure if that will have an effect on the car, since there wasn't any problems with the car when this began .

Might be a stupid question, but did anyone replace any of the fuses with circuit breakers (they look like black fuses and automatically reset)? Maybe the (+) source is drawing too much power, especially if all 3 heavy inputs are on the same source.

I'm not familiar with these cars. Is there keysense?

Where's the power source for the alarm coming from? (the small (+) constant wire powering the brain)

During the start (while the starter's turning), what's the voltage? Have you tried a new battery, or tried hooking jumper cables while starting? Maybe the battery voltage is dipping too low and confusing the brain.

Is your flex ignition/accessory wire set as accessory?

Just my $0.02!

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No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)

Okay so the resitance in the key, as well as the bypassed resistor is 9.53k.

All of the ignition wires get powered up when the rs engages, including the accessory wire.
I tried added a power line from battery to an ignition wire incase there wasn't enough current, and that didn't help.

The original unit was connected for voltage sense and there was never a tach wire installed. Whe I replaced it with the avital unit I first hooked up with voltage sense since this was the recommended install method for this and stated the tach wire wasn't necessary. Same results with this unit.
Ran the tach wire to the fuel injector wire and did The tach learn a few times to make sure it was done correctly and still the same results.

I tried you give gas when the car starts but the same results.

Okay, so I did a little more investigation, and it looks like the fuel pump is not getting any power while the car cranks.

So either, the ignition wire that feeds the fuel pump is not connected right, or I have another problem.

I connected 12volts to the fuel pump at the relay and the car started and stayed on no problem. Soon as I disconnected the power the car stalled out again.

So does anybody have a diagram to know which ignition wire feeds the fuel pump?

Or should I just run a separate relay to the fuel pump to be activated when th remote starter is activated?

It has to be one of the ignition wires. Double/triple check the fuses on the heavy harness. Also, sometimes the fuse blade doesn't slide into the connector;it slides next to it. Test that you have +12v on the car's ignition wires, not the brain's harness.

This could also be caused by the immobilizer. You can put the key in the ignition in the OFF position during remote start. It should stay running if if the immobilizer isn't working right.

I don't recommend running a relay to the fuel pump since the key starts the car. It's clearly an issue with the wiring or brain.

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No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)

Thanks, key in and off the car won't start. The voltage all seems correct. I think there are only 2 ignition wires in this system, but the Buick has 3. I have 2 wires connected to one of the outputs. Maybe there isn't enough current to run this particular ignition wire?

You need to use a relay for the third ignition...You are most likely overloading the remote start....

I was leaning towards that. I will try to wire one up this afternoon and post back.

Okay so I am under the dash at the moment and the 3rd ignition wire is PURPLE / white. It is a thin gauge wire maybe 14-16ga. It it connected to the heavy gauge ignition one wire (pink). Both ignition wires have their own ignition wire. I fed the PURPLE / white wire power and tried to remote start and the same thing. This wire has a constant 12v even when the car dies.

So, the fuel pump relay had a thick wire that isn't getting any power while the RS is running. I ran a relay to it, using the 200mA out.

Is it safe to run this way ?

If you're content with the band-aid. You have a bigger problem there. If it worked for the past few years and just stopped working, there's a problem. They don't just stop working without reason. I can't tell you that the relay is okay. All it's doing is masking the overall problem.

The only thing I can say is it's not proper to wire a relay to the fuel pump for obvious reasons. The car's ignition wires and immobilizer handle the fuel pump cut-off, so the problem has to be with one of those two.

I would highly encourage not wiring the fuel pump relay this way for your own safety.

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No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)

Correct it worked for a few years then quit. I replaced the unit and the same problem.
By running the relay to the fuel pump, isn't more of a bypass then a band-aide? The vats has been dosconnect with the original install.

By powering the fuel pump relay, you're energizing whichever circuit has not been energizing through a smaller gauge wire. Most fuel pumps have a 10 amp fuse, which means the wiring is usually 14 or 16 gauge. Sending 20-30 amps over this wire (and ultimately powering other circuits) will cook it and could set fire. What I'm trying to say is, a relay wire is too thin to power whatever circuits are not getting power in addition to the fuel pump relay.

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No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)

That much I gathered. I tried to match the wire gauges to avoid that, with a 10 amp fuse. I had the car running in like this for over 2 hours and all the wires are all cool.

I will try to find a wiring schemating for the ignition to see which circuit controls the fuel pump. Ultimately I would like this unit to run the way it should, but this is a temporary work around until the weather warms up.

I assume this relay is powering up the missing circuit.
What I was thinking of doing is actuating this relay to activate that circuit, then trace the live wires in the ignition.

once I find those I will move the relay to power up from the beginning of the circuit, as opposed to the end.

But I think I am getting closer to solving the problem.

If you absolutely need the remote start, I would recommend using a 5 pin relay to take it off the original circuit. Cut the wire after the relay that goes to the fuel pump.

85 - +12V fused (200mA)
86 - 200mA ground output from alarm' ignition, the thin gauged wire
87 - +12V fused (10A, check the owners manual to be sure)
87a - fuel pump relay side
30 - fuel pump, pump side

This way, you're completely isolating it from the rest of the car.

Be sure to stripe a diode across the coil of the relay so you don't cook the brain.

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No question is stupid or not worth asking. You were once a noob, right? :)

Back in November, in post #6 in this thread I suggested that the fuel p[ump was not being powered during a R/S. I was right. I know these cars. I'm quite familiar with 1996 Riviera, as I maintained one for a neighbor for 10 years. Just for the record I'm an ASE Master, certified in all mechanical areas. I've been wrenching cars, boats and yachts for almost 50 years. I am VERY familiar with GM wiring and engine strategies.

Very first thing:
Does it start and run normally with the key?
If = YES it is your connections from the R/S to the IGN wiring that are at fault. It is NOT the car. There is no single wire from the IGN switch for the fuel pump. The pink and white wires do it all.

I also see conflicting reports. You say "fuel pump not powered during crank". But the initial problem was "starts, but dies-out [from lack of fuel] after it quits cranking". These are two different sets of symptoms, with two different causes. Which is it? In the first, it shouldn't even start, because the pump was never on. In the second, the pump was on during cranking, but turned off.

There are three IGN wires. Orange, Pink and White.( I do not see a "pur/wht" wire in the diagrams at the IGN switch. In an earlier post, I explained what pur/wht in a GM is. It is NOT to be powered by a R/S.) Orange is important because it powers the electric cooling fans, without it, the car can overheat during a R/S because the fans won't come on. If pink is not powered, it will not run. so your pink is fine.If white is not powered, there is no request to the PCM to fuel the engine. The PCM controls the fuel pump.

Check the white wire again.
If it is 12V in run with R/S, but not during a R/S crank, this is your problem. You probably have the white wire configured as an ACCY output rather than an IGN.

If the white wire is not powered-up during CRANK, the fuel pump will not be enabled.

Take off all the band-aids and work-arounds. Figure out what the real problem is. Probably that you have the output feeding the white wire programmed as an ACCY, and it needs to be IGN.

Thanks, I will look again tomorrow.

The white wire is a thin gauge wire?

Yes. White wire is thin gauge

There are fuses under the back seat. You might for grins check them.

Is your car Supercharged? The fuel pump wiring is different. Knowing will help me look at the correct diagrams for your engine.

I'm curious, and it will help me understand what is going on, as to what color wire at the fuel pump relay you connected your "band-aid" to?

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I'm also perplexed by, but haven't overlooked the fact that you had the same symptoms with two different units, and that the original problem came on after years of trouble-free service.

What could it be?

Did the original installer use T-taps? And the replacement unit was installed using the same T-taps on the ignition wiring?

T-taps are notorious for becoming intermittent and problematic with time.

It is supercharged.

The heavy gauge wires are soldered together. There are a few taps, but to the brake switch and stuff like that.

I can't remember a white wire in the ignition, but hey after looking at all these wires, I could be forgetting.

With both units I have the same problem. Everything seems to be powering up, and I get voltage over all the wires. The older unit had a satelite relay, this new one is self contained with the relays. Originally I thought one of those relays In the satelite relay went, so I decided to swap out the unit altogether.

The wire that can be programed should be set to ignition. When I changed it to accessory , the car did turn over just cranked. I switched it back, so it should be programmed correctly.

This white wire sounds like the one, I just don't remember seeing it!

I just looked at the diagrams again. The "white" wire can also be a pink/white. But there's definitely 2 IGN wires needed to make it run.

The orange wire (cooling fans AND HVAC) should be powered as an Accy.

The brown wire is for power windows, radio, and wipers. Not ultra-necessary for these to be powered in an unoccupied car. BUT.

If the brown and orange wires are powered in the original installation, there has to be an additional relay installed somewhere.There are only 4 outputs in the satellite relay, but there are 5 wires at the switch that need to be powered if everything is powered-up during a RS. (Including STARTER).

Perhaps this additional relay is utilized for the wht or pnk/wht IGN 2 wire, and has gone bad, or its power source has blown a fuse?

Another possibility for the malfunction to be present with both units.

Hello, I'm in the ignition now, there is no thin gauge white or pink/white wire.

Here is a purple and white and that is connected to the remote starter and energizes. This is the ignition wire I believe you're referring to. It gets energized without the fuel pump relay I added in.

These are my wires:

Heavy: brown Orange yellow red RED / white pink pink/white
Thin: green GREEN/ black PURPLE / white BROWN / white black red

davep. wrote:

I just looked at the diagrams again. The "white" wire can also be a pink/white. But there's definitely 2 IGN wires needed to make it run.

darinus wrote:

Hello, I'm in the ignition now, there is no thin gauge white or pink/white wire.

These are my wires:

Heavy: brown Orange yellow red RED / white pink pink/white

Are these wire colors for the wires in the car, or the wires of the old satellite relay going TO the car?

In all my posts, I'm referring to the wire colors of THE CAR.

IF these colors are for THE CAR, it looks like you have a HEAVY pink/white, but not a thin one. So it's heavy. OK. Be sure the HEAVY pink/white CAR wire is powered-up in R/S..

Correct, those are all the Car's wiring from the ignition switch wiring harness.

The heavy Pink/white is connected to the RS on a separate dedicated wire. This wire does power and up show 13.4 volts.

If I disconnect this wire, and try to RS the car it wont even attempt.

For doodies and giggles, I ran an additional constant 12v line direct from the battery to the Pink/white wire and tried to start remote start the car, hoping to provide more amperage, and still the same condition.