Bad install???
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=1440
Printed Date: April 28, 2024 at 1:32 AM
Topic: Bad install???
Posted By: RAID
Subject: Bad install???
Date Posted: June 22, 2002 at 10:37 PM
A customer had some concerns about alarms and asked if I could help him. He told me his friend wentto a shop and had a Viper installed that had 2 extra sirens and pinswitches and mercury switches galore, with more LED's than a brand new Deville tail light (damn those are nice cars!!). Well the car got stolen and he wants to know how. I suggested to him it could have something to do with the installation, he said maybe they were that good. I explained to him some precautions that are taken into consideration when installing an alarm. Then I asked him more questions about his friends car and he said "all I know is when you look under the dash there is a black box that says Viper 500ESP."Hmm, then he said with a smile "it took no time at all" These are the people that give bad names to the Mobile industryWe all started somewhere, but how can you feel charging someone $375 for a POS.sorry for the long postby the way it was a 1989 Mazda RX-7 with the rotary 13b motor. they found the frame on the E end of Bridgeport. what a shame.
Replies:
Posted By: Velocity Motors
Date Posted: June 23, 2002 at 12:41 AM
I'll have to agree with RAID on the fact that these installers are giving the mobile installers a bad name. Most thieves know that installers place the brain of the alarm system under the driver side dash. We as installers have to be smarter than that and not get complacent in our installs. We have to be able to move with the times and mount equipment in less OBVIOUS places. So what if it takes a little longer to extend the alarm wires to have it installed in the center console. At least this way the customer will have a chance against the bastards out there stealing cars and audio equipment. Sorry, had to vent my frustrations and let some steam out  ------------- Jeff
Velocity Custom Home Theater
Mobile Audio/Video Specialist
Morden, Manitoba CANADA
Posted By: steveholtam
Date Posted: June 23, 2002 at 2:59 AM
You guys are dead on. The technology exists to prevent cars and their contents safe, but cheap installs allow the good thiefs to circumvent the alarms as they know what to expect before starting thier crime. There is a rash of deck theives in my neighboorhood currently. They got me for about $500 in stuff a few months ago. They folded a rear window in and climbed in, cut the deck out, took all my cds and some other stuff, and then when he was done, set the alarm off on his way out, as his get away driver was waiting. I saw them drive off... The car across the street from me, a newer Civic had the trunk opened and the cd changer removed. There was no forced entry. Then a week after that, all four tires and rims, about $1500's worth taken. She did gain two cheap ass jacks though :-( Both these cars had the basic type keyless entry alarms, mine did have a shock sensor. This time, I got the microwave/IR sensor thing that would/should help out on some of this stuff. Another thing I do, which is sad, but I know longer buy very expensive decks. I just get a nice $150 range one or something. They still take them, but at least I can go and buy a new one the next day. I do have my amp bolted down, so thats not going anywhere :-) Steve
Posted By: bud 13
Date Posted: June 23, 2002 at 2:16 PM
I know how raid feels. I had an alarm put in for some good money and they did a !@#$y install. the siren on the shock tower, the brain just stuck in between some wires and a wire harness right next to the plastic foot rest( honda accord) and the extended range antenea wrapped around itself just above my brake pedal! the valet switch was in plain site on the drskp. I know its a honda but damn give a person an install as if it was your car! then i had a system put in and what a nightmare that was, the amp wire was routed thru the same hole as the siren output wire from the alarm and was chaffed. Any person could tell that with vibration and any movement of the amp wire the siren wire could easily be shorted out in a matter of time. the gains on my amp where turned up so much i couldn't get the radio past 15 without distorion. i had freaking whine out the wazzu. i just recently added some things myself to it, a glass mic sensor and a 530t i'll do the dome light sprvsn later and while i'm not claiming to be certified(not yet at least) or an expert at least i hid the brain ALOT better then them and i'm going back and soldering everything once i get the chance( which they didn't do). I wish the guy who got the car stolen best of luckwith his next car/ alarm install. i hope his friend tells him what Raid told him. i learned alot on these forums. next time(if there is a next time) i go shoping for an alarm either for myself or with someone i know i know now to ask some serious ?'s. and if the person gets offened or something i'm out the door!
Posted By: cva2000uk
Date Posted: June 23, 2002 at 4:10 PM
This kinda thing seems to be all to common now daysthe good thing in the uk is that alarm installs can be checked at anytime buy the vehicle security installation board.every major alarm install has to be certificated by the alarm shop.so if they throw an alarm system on , they have to answer to the big guys.i never throw on anything.i was 15 when i installed my first alarm . and i can even remember the vehicle.I take pride in my installs, as most guys here do.live and learn is my motto
Posted By: CTMobileMedia
Date Posted: June 23, 2002 at 4:29 PM
All the more reason to buy quality products from reputable shops. A good shop will have pics of their installs, including close-ups of solder connections. They'll tell a customer right off the bat that they solder (not t-tap) as a sales tool. And they won't do an alarm install in 20 minutes - even a Honda Civic. If I were a customer, I'd rather wait a day or 2 while someone installs it just to know it's being done right. Dave CT Mobile Media
Posted By: tech_advice
Date Posted: June 23, 2002 at 4:39 PM
I usually put the module in behind the glove box(removal necessary) and the valet switch in the glove box(discretely), for the simple fact that you can't get up behind most from under the dash, and the valet can be locked away.....takes a little longer, but I'd feel like crap if a customer came back to my shop and said some knob stole their stereo and my alarm was diabled in less than 30 seconds.....
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Don't share too many install secrets with your customers, pretty soon they won't need you!!!!!
Posted By: atakinetic
Date Posted: June 24, 2002 at 10:24 AM
I've never installed an alarm or keyless entry...but planning to do so on my g/f's car tonight. Forgive me for asking a stupid question...but why is it important to hide the 'brain' of the alarm? I guess my question really is what does one do to disable an alarm system if they know where the box is...simply cut all the wires?
Posted By: Velocity Motors
Date Posted: June 24, 2002 at 2:14 PM
If you do not hide the alram brain well enough then the thief will easily be able to yank on the wires of the alarm and then disable the alarm. Chances are cutting tools will not be necessary if they can easily access the alarm brain. ------------- Jeff
Velocity Custom Home Theater
Mobile Audio/Video Specialist
Morden, Manitoba CANADA
Posted By: steveholtam
Date Posted: June 24, 2002 at 3:33 PM
As soon as I finish testing my alarm (once its confirmed working), I'm going to go back and redo all the wiring (soldering all connections) and hiding things.
Can I use Cat-5 computer cable, which I believe has eight wires inside for sending the signals and such for the none large voltage connections? This seems ideal as the wires are nicely enclosed in the small grey casing.
I like the behind the glove box idea with the valet button locked in the glove box. Steve
Posted By: mobiletoys2002
Date Posted: June 24, 2002 at 3:57 PM
cool ive seen it done before with cat cable its a cool i dea verry nice but you still wanna hide those starter kill wires verry good and those will be of a heavy gauge so u will not be able to use that cat cable for that . the wires that are of most importance would be the power wires and the starter kill being that with any of those seen it would be verry easy to steal a car.
Posted By: cva2000uk
Date Posted: June 24, 2002 at 6:29 PM
I was wondering what the wiring was like on car alarms in the usa. besides cliffords and vipers. cause i know those.here in the uk good alarms have black wires ..they have paper id tags, so you can id the wires.the id tags are removed after the alarm has been installed.so even if a thief were to find the alarms brain they would have the problem of knowing which wires do what.do you guys have alarms that are simular?
Posted By: Velocity Motors
Date Posted: June 24, 2002 at 10:30 PM
I find that the majority of auto thefts or stereo thefts that have the alarm disabled have the alarm literally ripped out of the dash area because installers are not hiding the alarm brain's well enough. The f@(ker's would not take the time to cautiously find the alarm brain and cut a single wire to disable the system rather they would want the have the least amount of noise while trying to steal the car or the stereo. The all black wires is a great idea if the theif wanted to steal the alarm, but most of the time they want the stereo or the car so off comes the wires on the alarm  ------------- Jeff
Velocity Custom Home Theater
Mobile Audio/Video Specialist
Morden, Manitoba CANADA
Posted By: steveholtam
Date Posted: June 24, 2002 at 11:37 PM
All the alarms I have seen have colored wires, and the companies seem to keep to the basic color scheme. So I guess a smart patient thief could just cut the red (+) power or the black (-) ground wires. Or the siren wire which I think is a brown wire. But like Velocity says, they usually got keep yanking things until the noise stops. Steve
Posted By: GlassWolf
Date Posted: June 25, 2002 at 12:22 AM
okay a few ways it may have been jacked.
1: the criminal saw the BCM and just hopped in and yanked it, then shorted teh starter kill relay and hot-wired it.
2: he popped the hood and cut the battery cable or siren wire. then took his time bypassing the alarm.
3: he used a special type of tow truck with something called a double0eagle rig. this backs up to a car, slides underneath the frame, "bites" the front wheels, then lifts them off the ground just like a big fork.. and off you go. you can jack a car with one of these babies in about 15 seconds. no need to even put it in neutral as it lifts the wheels right off the ground.
I had friends in the towing/repo business when I worked for a local audio shop near DC. heh I learned a lot of neat tricks.
Also how I learned how to make a nearly impregnable alarm system.
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-GlassWolf
Pioneer Stage-4, Orion, DynAudio, Fi
Posted By: steveholtam
Date Posted: June 25, 2002 at 8:50 AM
So I would think that for a high quality safe alarm, the brain would need to be very good, two sirens hidden very good not near each other and all on a backup battery. With a setup like this, it seems it would be difficult to bypass the alarm easily. Steve
Posted By: cva2000uk
Date Posted: June 25, 2002 at 5:48 PM
The alarms that i install are cobras, they are great !!unlike certain alarms that i wont mention, approved cobra alarms have a seperate coded immobiliser. which i might add does not unplug.once wired into the cars fuel and ignition circuit the only way to start the car without the remote and key is to trace the black wires back to the point where they join the cars original wire circuits.this can take hours if the alarm is installed properly.minutes if it is not...ive removed loads of badly fitted alarms in seconds.these cars could have been driven away in seconds.when i fit an immobilser , what i have started doing now is cutting the fuel wire so its almost undetectable .then join the immobiliser wire to it at one end.then i run the other end of the immobilser wire to the rear of the vehicle. along side the factory wiring.and cut the other end of the fuel wire. then i also cut "say the rear wash wipe wire" .and swap the wire with the fuel pump wire.so the idea is if a good thief were to know the colour of the cars fuel wirerather than him find it in the side of the car under the carpet and direct live it.he would direct live the rear wiper wash lolalso just incase .the immobilisers that i fit have anti hotwire circuitry tooso if they are direct lived they go up in smoke . Insurance approved !ive always wondered if the insurance companys that have approved these systems know that the car would go up in smoke too lol  ------------- "you wont like me, when i get angry" .
Posted By: omegamotorsprts
Date Posted: September 17, 2002 at 11:46 PM
a friend of mine owns a business based out of the next town over and for an alarm you will have to drop the car off four maybe a couple of days, but he's been to DEI's alarm training schools and when he extends out wiring he uses only DEI factory wire coloring and you could spend the next month or so and not find the alarm depending on the vehicle, but then agian I've seen alarms that look like rat nest and I was about as scared to reach into the wiring as I would be a rats nest.
Posted By: chasesaccessori
Date Posted: September 18, 2002 at 10:35 AM
I've seen it all and yanked a bunch out. Have you ever demonstrated to a customer haw easy it was to defeat a car alarm? I had one come in braging that joe smo down the street installed his alarm and it cost a bunch less than I would do it for. I got him to agree to let me defeat his alarm with the agreement that I would fix anything I broke or damaged. All I did was remove a corner light bulb, short the bulb conector and set the alarm off. The alarm blirped once and stopped. He then paid me to make it right.
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(owner/installer)
Chase's Accessories
Ridgecrest, CA
in business since 92
Posted By: gferguso
Date Posted: September 18, 2002 at 4:56 PM
 I installed my on alarm and I'm curious as to how shorting out the corner light could defeat an alarm. I'm also concerned because I'm in the process of up grading my equipment. ------------- Gferg
Posted By: Velocity Motors
Date Posted: September 18, 2002 at 6:38 PM
If you fuse the parking light circuit you can not defeat the system with that technique. ------------- Jeff
Velocity Custom Home Theater
Mobile Audio/Video Specialist
Morden, Manitoba CANADA
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