Printer Friendly Forum Posts - Rollup when sector violated... Success!

Well for any of you who are interested, I was able to devise a way to get my window module (530T) to roll my windows up when the outer radar sector is violated (by snoopers, rain, etc). The ‘ground when armed’ wire that connects to my window module is what triggers the module to roll up the windows when armed (this wire stays grounded until disarmed). However if I leave the windows down when armed I can ‘trick’ the window module into rolling the windows up by breaking the connection on this wire for a second and then reconnecting it (the module thinks that I have disarmed the alarm and then rearmed it... this does not trigger the alarm at all).

I therefore devised a two relay system. The first relay is a ‘timer’ which (using a capacitor and resistor) momentarily activates the 2nd relay which does nothing but break the ‘ground when armed’ connection for a short interval (using a 1Kuf capacitor and a 10K ohm resistor the interval is about 0.5 seconds which works great).

I have uploaded a diagram of what I set up.
See it below.

I’d be interested in hearing everyone’s thoughts on this. Will this setup have any unforeseen problems? So far its been working correctly every time. I learned a lot about this from information on this site. My thanks to all who contribute and keep it going!

posted_image

that looks like a good idea to me, cool

"themagicone" had a post :

Subject: Posted: December 11, 2002

> Heres something to try! If you have an alarm get a
> motion dector and wire it into the window control. If
> you do it right - if you leave your windows open and
> your car is armed, if someone walks by the windows
> close halfway, if they decide to put thier arm in the
> window it will close the rest of the way. Works great
> on my car and pretty easy to do. Want instructions?
> email me

I responded, his instructions were similar, yours looks great! I'd like to catch a thief in the act.

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rudbwoy69camaro wrote:

"themagicone" had a post :

Subject: Posted: December 11, 2002

> Heres something to try! If you have an alarm get a
> motion dector and wire it into the window control. If
> you do it right - if you leave your windows open and
> your car is armed, if someone walks by the windows
> close halfway, if they decide to put thier arm in the
> window it will close the rest of the way. Works great
> on my car and pretty easy to do. Want instructions?
> email me

I responded, his instructions were similar, yours looks great! I'd like to catch a thief in the act.

I would like to see your instructions as well.

So you are saying that when you use the vent feature of the 530T - and have a radar sensor - the windows wont go up automatically? Would love to be able to have that....

Too bad we can't just electrify the door handles with about 10,000 volts! My vehicle has been violated 3 times! Once with the windows down in my own driveway!

One question -

shouldn't the (-) ground when violated be coming from the sensor? Not the brain? I think I am confused - where does the trigger leg from the sensor connect too?

My alarm is an Alpine SEC-8063... the radar sensor has its own wire harness connecting to the brain. The brain has a separate wire (coming from its main harness) that goes ground when the outer sector is violated.

utc13] wrote:

My alarm is an Alpine SEC-8063... the radar sensor has its own wire harness connecting to the brain. The brain has a separate wire (coming from its main harness) that goes ground when the outer sector is violated.

Oh that would explain it then! Thanks!

Im lookin at the Hornet 554T and I don't think it has a (-) at outer violation!

Here is what "themagicone" replied:

First you need to get a window control that has a trigger that uses ground -when it gets ground ,it shuts the windows. The best one I think are the 530t and 529t from DEI. Then you need a motion dector with dual stage trigers,#520D from DEI also. There is a blue and green wire that come off the motion detector - just wire those to ground to close input and your done. The only thing is that you can't use your close when arm feature otherwise it willignore the ground from the motion sensor. If you have any more questions letme know.

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This setup gave me an added bonus this past weekend. I left my windows down (while armed) while I was inside for a few hours... and an unexpected rain shower moved in. The radar sensor detected the rain (interpreted as an outer sector violation) and rolled the windows up! Man, how cool is that! Once again thanks to everyone who contributes to this forum! Couldn't have done any of this without you all!

i was thinking.... what about getting rid of the second relay and hooking the (-) when armed of the alarm to pin 87 of the first relay, then 30 to the window module? it would save you a relay, i think it would work too.. Also maybe it should have something that allows it to only be triggered once per arming so the window module doesnt keep turing on and off, i was thinking if you put a latching relay in for the first one, that way it will only hit the window module once per arming... just some ideas, maybe ill draw up a diagram since it hard to follow someones ideas in text lol

Yep, I was able to get it working last night with only the 1st relay. The ground when armed (from brain) I hooked to pin 87a and the ground when armed (from window module) went to pin 30. All other connections remained to same and it works perfectly still. Thanks for the suggestion XETMES!

yet there is another way to do this. Don't hook up the ground when armed to the window up wire, but hook it to another channel on the remote if there is one left. Then hook up the blue wire off of the prox (508D) with some diodes to the wire that rolls the windows up. That way no relay is even necessary. Then you can roll the windows up or down off of the remote and there is not constant ground on the windows up wire. But make sure to hook up the ground on the prox straight up to the ground when armed wire. Good Luck!

beatnutz wrote:

yet there is another way to do this. Don't hook up the ground when armed to the window up wire, but hook it to another channel on the remote if there is one left. Then hook up the blue wire off of the prox (508D) with some diodes to the wire that rolls the windows up. That way no relay is even necessary. Then you can roll the windows up or down off of the remote and there is not constant ground on the windows up wire. But make sure to hook up the ground on the prox straight up to the ground when armed wire. Good Luck!

Thats great! But a quick question - on the 530T module you have the ability to keep the windows down when arming your alarm. After you do that and the perimeter sensor senses something inside the outer zone and sends that pulse to the window module will it then roll the windows up?

What is the window module that ou hook this up too? Is it the factory motor or is it like an additional alarm feature that u replace the factory motor with? Thanks

HondaTypeSE wrote:

What is the window module that ou hook this up too? Is it the factory motor or is it like an additional alarm feature that u replace the factory motor with? Thanks

The window module we are speaking of is an aftermarket alarm accessory. Gives an alarm user the ability to roll up his/her car windows when armed or the ability to vent or roll down the windows as well. You must have power windows for this to work.

HondaTypeSE: It is an add-on module that interfaces the factory window wires to control the windows.

Fullthrottle wrote:

beatnutz wrote:

yet there is another way to do this. Don't hook up the ground when armed to the window up wire, but hook it to another channel on the remote if there is one left. Then hook up the blue wire off of the prox (508D) with some diodes to the wire that rolls the windows up. That way no relay is even necessary. Then you can roll the windows up or down off of the remote and there is not constant ground on the windows up wire. But make sure to hook up the ground on the prox straight up to the ground when armed wire. Good Luck!

Thats great! But a quick question - on the 530T module you have the ability to keep the windows down when arming your alarm. After you do that and the perimeter sensor senses something inside the outer zone and sends that pulse to the window module will it then roll the windows up?

Anybody?

Fullthrottle wrote:

Fullthrottle wrote:

beatnutz wrote:

yet there is another way to do this. Don't hook up the ground when armed to the window up wire, but hook it to another channel on the remote if there is one left. Then hook up the blue wire off of the prox (508D) with some diodes to the wire that rolls the windows up. That way no relay is even necessary. Then you can roll the windows up or down off of the remote and there is not constant ground on the windows up wire. But make sure to hook up the ground on the prox straight up to the ground when armed wire. Good Luck!

Thats great! But a quick question - on the 530T module you have the ability to keep the windows down when arming your alarm. After you do that and the perimeter sensor senses something inside the outer zone and sends that pulse to the window module will it then roll the windows up?

Anybody?

Well duh - I answered my own question!

Hey guys....great post! This is awesome. I asked this same question a while back, but never really figured it out. I have a earlier model of the motion sensor (I think it's only one stage), that I wanted to have roll up the windows if it detected anything.

Also, I guess you could likewise do this with the shock sensor. If the windows are down, and the sensor is tripped, then the windows go up.

So the latest thing is that you guys were getting this to work with only 1 relay? (and a capacitor and a resistor)

Hmmm....anyone else been trying this?

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Does this installation you have described, override any "crush-prevention" auto-reversing mechanisms in the vehicle?

If so, you may want ot put a vinyl sticker next to each window.
"*WARNING: Vehicle is equipped with poximity activated automatic closing windows. Owner is not responsible for bodily harm.*"

There are too many lawyers these days.

wotteg wrote:

Does this installation you have described, override any "crush-prevention" auto-reversing mechanisms in the vehicle?

If so, you may want ot put a vinyl sticker next to each window.
"*WARNING: Vehicle is equipped with poximity activated automatic closing windows. Owner is not responsible for bodily harm.*"

There are too many lawyers these days.

Screw em -

When you walk up to your car and there they are stuck in your windows like a trapped animal - make sure you have a bat with you!

My philosphy - dead men don't tell tales - and neither can they hire lawyers! posted_image

Then again - I would hate to see a child (especially mine) get their hand or arm stuck! posted_image

Hey,
Ok, I'm gonna try to get this to work with the 1 relay, and a shock sensor. No one posted a diagram for the "1-relay" method, so I took a shot just to make sure I got it right. The diagram is below. Here's a couple of questions that I came up with....any answers would be really helpful....thanks!

1. Why are you using pin 87a instead of 87? I'm still learning about relays, that's why I'm asking. I thought 87 had to get the "ground when armed" signal from the alarm to send it to the window module....not 87a.

2. I see that you used a 1K uf capacitor, and a 10K fixed resistor. I've never used either of those before, so I was curious if those will be the specs on the package when I go to Radio Shack to buy them...or is there anything else I need to know? In the very first diagram, I was a little confused on how to install them in the wire. Do they just go inline? Like installing a diode? (I'm also assuming you used the diode?)

3. I would like this to work with both the warnaway and the instant trigger from the shock sensor. Can I just tap both the green AND blue wires from the sensor?

4. Do you still have full functionality of the 530t after doing this? Meaning, 1-touch up and down, the windows roll up on arming, or you can still arm with the windows down?

THANKS!

EDIT: I couldn't upload the picture, so I put it on this website.....URL=https://www.angelfire.com/nj4/cpgoose/530t.html]Click Here[/URL]

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Well, that link didn't work either....here's the link again:

https://www.angelfire.com/nj4/cpgoose/530t.html

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for the answer for Fullthrottle

the outer zone is not connected to the window module. it serves as a warning for people to stay away. only the inner zone is connected to the window module, that way if you get real close to the car the windows go up and the alarm goes off.

Anyone else try this? It works great.

What's up? Sorry if this becomes a double-post...but I posted, and it was there...and now it's not...so I'm trying again.

I'm attempting to accomplish the window rollup using my shock sensor instead of a motion sensor. The diagram below is my attempt at using 1 relay (as previously suggested), and the shock sensor. Here are a couple questions, though, that I came across when making this diagram...any help would be great:

1. Why do you use 87a instead of 87? I'm still learning how to use relays for certain applications, and I thought you had to use 87 in this case. In fact, I don't really know why you would use 87a for anything. Help a relay noobie:-)

2. I see in your diagram that you used the capacitor and the resistor. I've never used these before (yet), I've only used diodes. Do they just install inline with the wire, the same as a diode? And when I go to Radio Shack to buy them, will the package just have the same specs for the resistor and capacitor that's in the very first diagram?

3. I'm attempting to do this with the shock sensor when it does a warnaway, as well as full alarm. Should I use both the blue and green wires off the shock sensor?

4. Since you got this to work, does the 530t act exactly the same as it used to? In other words, does it still close the windows when you arm, unless you hit button on the remote first to hold them? Do you still have 1-touch open and close?

Here's my diagram....(I couldn't get the image upload to work, or the hyperlink either....so here's the address):

https://www.angelfire.com/nj4/cpgoose/530t.html

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1. i dont know know either, i dont see why he used 87a, i dont think it would work that way, maybe its a mistype? or maybe he knows somethin i dont...?

2. A resistor will just look kinda like a diode except usually a tan color with color bands that indicate the resistance, the package will say though so you dont need to know how to read the markings. A capacitor will look a little different if you are going to use that value it will be electrolytic (it will look like a small "can" with 2 leads) for these types of caps polarity is important, it will have markings on to indicate the polarity.

3. if you are going to do that you want to isolate them with 2 diodes.

4. not for me :)

As far as i know that will work, just change that top wire to terminal 87, i still think though that you might want to add a latching relay or something so it will only activate once per arming, but i guess this wont really be a problem unless your alarm goes off a whole lot, then again if that happens you have bigger problems lol

good luck

1. hey xetmes, thanks for answering all of my long questions. I'll send utc a private message to look at this post, maybe he'll answer why he used 87a instead of 87.

2. thanks for the descriptions. I think I'll be able to handle the resistor, but still a little curious about the capacitor. Just want to make sure I don't get a computer capacitor, or a car audio one ;-)

3. I guess I can just tap both wires from the shock sensor, and bring them both to the same terminal on the relay? When I diode isolate, should the stripe face the shock sensor?

4. When you said "not for me", is this because you've had bad results....or because you haven't hooked this up?

I was thinking about the latching relay part, but my alarm doesn't really go off that often. I could install a switch or something to cut power to the relay. This way, if I'm going to park somewhere for a long period of time (or even just park with the windows shut), I can disable this whole feature. If I park with the windows open, then I'll enable it. sweeeeet.

Thanks (sorry for extending the questions) :)

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Sorry about not posting the 1-relay diagram, I’ve been away for a while.

In regards to my setup, I have an Alpine SEC-8063 alarm with the integrated radar sensor. This sensor plugs right into the alarm brain with its own harness. The sensor has 2 zones, one outer (that projects outside the vehicle) and one inner (inside the vehicle). The brain has its own output wire that goes to ground when the outer sector is violated.

The brain also has an output wire that goes to ground when the alarm is armed (this wire stays grounded until disarmed). This wire is normally hooked directly to the (ground when armed) wire of my DEI 530T window module. It uses this wire to detect when the alarm is armed and as a result rolls the windows up (which it does by default). With the 530T I also have the option of arming the alarm without rolling the windows up (by holding the AUX and then arming). In this case I wanted the 530T to roll the windows up when the outer sector is violated.

The whole trick to my setup is this. I found out (by trial and error) that if I break the ground when armed connection (between the 8063 and 530T) for a second, and then reconnect it, the 530T thinks that I have disarmed the alarm and then rearmed it (this does not trigger the alarm) and as a result rolls the windows up. Therefore I needed a setup that would momentarily break the ground when armed connection (only for a moment) when the outer sector was violated. The 1-relay setup has worked perfectly for me thus far. See diagram below.

The ground when armed connection between the 8063 and 530T passes through the relay via pins 30 and 87a (this way the connection is normally uninterrupted). The coil connections are fused +12V on pin 85 and the ground when outer sector violated on pin 86. Pin 87 is left open. With this setup when the outer radar sector is violated the coil will energize and the ground when armed connection is broken/interrupted. I needed the interruption to be momentary not constant, so I added the capacitor and resistor circuit. The capacitor allows the coil of the relay to be energized until the capacitor stores a charge, thus de-energizing the coil. The resistor bleeds off the charge of the capacitor when the ground (when outer sector violated) is removed from the other side of the coil. You can increase the ‘interruption time’ by simply changing the value of the capacitor (using a 1Kuf capacitor and a 10K ohm resistor the interval is about 0.5 seconds which works great). These components are readily available at the local Radio Shack.

I hope this helps everyone’s understanding and I hope that everyone who attempts this can get it working. I think it’s the coolest things yet that I’ve done with my alarm.

posted_image

Awesome, thanks for replying....3 quick questions for you:

1. Did you still use a diode across pins 85 and 86? If so, did you just install the diode across the wires on the relay's wire harness?

2. I'm going to purchase the capacitor and the resistor, but I don't understand how they "install". I've never used them before, I've only used diodes. I guess what I don't understand is how you've installed two items on the one wire? Did you just cut the wire in half, and install them both inline? Stupid question, sorry.

3. Have you seen any adverse effects after having done this? Just curious if there were any drawbacks.

Thanks again...I can't wait to try this. I'm going to try with the shock sensor, so I guess I can tie into both the green and blue wires of the sensor.

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Just to clarify what the capacitors look like, I found three that were 1k uf (I think). They are Cat# 272-1047, Cat # 272-1032, and Cat # 272-1019 on this page from RadioShack.. Which type did you use?

posted_image

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Yes I did use the diode across the coil. I always use a relay socket when I use relays and I can get sockets with the diode already installed. See link below.

The resistor must be installed in parallel with the capacitor. I don’t have a picture handy so see the (very) rough sketch I drew below. Just twist the resistor and capacitor together as shown and then install this assembly ‘inline’ on the relay wire.

I have seen zero drawbacks with this setup thus far.

The capacitor I used is…
Radio Shack
1000µF 35V 20% Radial-lead Electrolytic Capacitor
Catalog #: 272-1032

Link to relay socket with diode

posted_image

Excellent, thanks for the information and the diagram. Now I know which capacitor to get, but I'm not sure which resistor. I know you said 10k uF, but there's a couple of those on Radio Shack's site. Is this the correct one?? Thanks for the link on the relays, too...I'll use those from now on. For the meantime, can I install a diode from wire 85 to 86 on the relay harness?....like this?.....
posted_image

Thanks again for the help...I really appreciate it. I attempted the diagram, too...

posted_image

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Crap, the pictures come up when they want (there's two diagrams in that last post). If you want, you can copy and paste the link, then they should show up.

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Resistor:
Radio Shack
10K ohm 1/2W 5% Carbon Film Resistor
Catalog #: 271-1126

hey, thanks again utc....

Did you also put a diode on the orange wire? I'm already using it now for the starter kill as well as the 530t, both of which needed a diode. Are you also using one for this application?

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Hmmm, I've been thinking a bit more about this (scary, I know). I was curious what would happen....

1. The windows are down and the car is armed
2. Someone bumps the car, and the alarm goes off
3. The shock sensor sends the signal to the relay, and the 530t receives a .5 second pulse and closes the windows
4. What's to stop the shock sensor from sending the signal again and again in the 30 seconds that the alarm is sounding? Unless the sensor only sends a quick pulse the moment there's a shock, and that's it?

I guess the reason I was thinking about this was becase I was wondering if this could work with the doors, instead. In other words, you park with the windows open, and someone reaches in to unlock the door. But there's really no "signal" that's sent, right?.....just that the alarm sees the door open, and the siren goes off. Then I was thinking I could hook up to the siren instead of the shock sensor.....but then the siren would keep trying to send the signal to the 530t, when I only want it to go on the first try.

Ok, I'm babbling....any ideas on what I'm thinking?

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I'm starting to think this won't work (with the shock sensor that is). Doesn't the shock sensor send out pulses even when the car is disarmed? In other words, I've seen the light blink on the sensor when I tap it while working on the car (and it's disarmed). I hope this wouldn't make the windows roll up while the car is running (and not armed).

eek.

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FWIW - If you use DEI 529/530 window module with a 508D field disturbance sensor, and want to roll-up on the warn away, you won't need the cap/resistor since the warn away is pulsed.

Basically, the way I run my alarms are to always have it roll-up the windows upon arming. However, if vented, I want the windows to roll-up if someone breaks the proximity. I prefer to roll-up on the warn away because a would-be merely needs to grasp the window firmly to stop the roll-up because of the built-in load control circuitry, and he's free to grab whatever is in reach without setting the alarm off. So, with triggering a warn-away roll-up, you buy a few seconds of time, depending on your field setting, before reaching to grab the window.

So my solution is as follow using a single relay:

Pin 30: (-) when armed from alarm brain
Pin 87a: window module trigger wire
Pin 87: not used
Pin 85: pulsed (-) warn away of the proximity sensor
Pin 86: +12V fused

In this configuration, Pins 30 and 87a are closed when the coil is not energized and this allows the windows to roll-up on alarm via the (-) when armed from the alarm brain. Because DEI window modules work off a constant ground, you need only break the ground path to get them to reset. So, when the pulsed (-) of the proximity sensor is triggered it will energize the coil and break the ground for a few milliseconds. The pulse quits, the contacts return to normally closed and the windows roll-up! Even if your windows are rolled up, and the proximity is broken, it'll attempt to actuate a roll-up, but it's no matter with the inherent circuitry of the window modules. This should also work for generic window modules using constant grounds and field disturbance sensors with a warn-away pulsed (-).