Print Page | Close Window

Viper 791XV remote start, auto headlight

Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=39457
Printed Date: March 28, 2024 at 6:02 AM


Topic: Viper 791XV remote start, auto headlight

Posted By: Derekc
Subject: Viper 791XV remote start, auto headlight
Date Posted: September 20, 2004 at 11:15 PM

Viper 791XV remote start + auto headlight.

I observed something and I would like to ask for your opinion.
I have a Lexus GS300 that a Viper 791XV was installed. I always have my headlight switch set to auto or on. (When set to on, it will still shut down after a minute or so after key is removed.)

The issue is the 30 sec count down of shut off of the head lights starts after you remove the key and open + close the driver door. This is the design.

Now, at night, when I remote start the engine and decide to let it run for 10 minutes and have the remote start automatically shut off. The headlight will stay on forever because it is waiting for the dirver door to open and close.

I had one or two times that I remote start the car evening time and end up decide to not go out. and let it stop. Next morning the battery dies.

Am I right explaining why the battery died? Any suggestion to prevent the car from happening?



-------------
DC



Replies:

Posted By: sroth140
Date Posted: September 20, 2004 at 11:44 PM
use a relay to inturrput the headlights. if your car is 98+ you can find the (-) trigger for the headlights relay under the steering column, RED / black. try taking one side of the RED / black to 87a and the other to 30. take the orange (-) ground when armed from the 791 to 85 and 12v constant to 86. whenever the alarm is armed the relay will break the headligh wire. so if you start it the lights will stay off, when it times out the lights will stay off.

it should work from there, but you might have to inturrupt the headlight wire somewhere else because of the auto lamps. one more thing you can try is setting the parking brake. with some cars that turns of atuo/day time running lamps.

-------------
MECP certified installer




Posted By: Derekc
Date Posted: September 20, 2004 at 11:54 PM

sroth140,

Good idea but I was hoping to preserve the 30 sec delay to turning-off headlight feature for walkway Illumination. Wouldn't adding a relay to the ground-when-armed or parking brake cuts off the headlights immediately?

But still it sounds like the only solution unless I "remember" to drive the car when I remote start it after dark.



-------------
DC




Posted By: sroth140
Date Posted: September 21, 2004 at 12:44 AM
well, if that relay worked where it was it would disable it. if you really wanted to get creative you can buy a timer relay from DEI and use a (+) or (-) trigger to run the lights from your open 4th or 5th channel. just wire that in to the 30 terminal (or 87a depending on if thats the relay or switch side)of the other relay, if you use that at all.

-------------
MECP certified installer




Posted By: Derekc
Date Posted: September 21, 2004 at 12:56 AM

I see. Thanks for the comment.

I wish I knew this issue and included it as a considering factor when I was deciding if I should add an after-market alarm to my car.  Well, I am sharing this here so those who wants to install an remote start alarm with auto-headlights should include this factor.

2nd thing. Sometimes when I am sitting inside the car waiting for, say, my wife to pickup food - 5 minutes, I want to shut off the engine and keep the doors closed and listen to the radio, so I turn the key to ACC to listen to the radio. The alarm will be set after 30 sec and if I do anything like open the door or start the engine or move myself too much, it will trigger the alarm and I would be like stealing the car.  How come the alarm doesn't start arming only when the key is not in ON nor ACC position? Or my installer made a mistake wiiring?? Can this be fixed or is there any work around (valet mode)?



-------------
DC




Posted By: sroth140
Date Posted: September 21, 2004 at 9:47 AM
when its set for passive arming (arming its self after 30 sec or so) it arms when the ign is turned off. accy doesnt matter because the alarm isnt wired to watch the accy wire. you cant steal a car by turning on the accy circuit, so alarms dont have an input for that zone. they watch ign because that runs the computers and is first in line when you turn the key to crank the car, but the starter wire is cut to prevent that from happening while armed. the only thing you can do is crack a door or turn the vehicle off and press the valet button, then go to accy.

-------------
MECP certified installer




Posted By: kgerry
Date Posted: September 21, 2004 at 3:47 PM
couldnt you just wire rearm to pulse the drivers door pin, similar to shutting down a RAP circuit?

-------------
Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer

Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979




Posted By: JWorm
Date Posted: September 21, 2004 at 8:12 PM
As kgerry said above, hooking the rearm wire to the drivers door trigger will shut off the headlights when the remote start shuts down. You might need a relay to make the pulse strong enough. Or you could just keep your headlight switch in the off position.

As far as the alarm setting when listening to the radio while your wife runs in the store....do the following.

Stop....turn car off....wife gets out and closes door. Turn key to igniton for a couple seconds, and then turn it back to accessory. As long as you don't open and close any doors, the alarm won't set.
If you happen to have domelight supervision hooked up to turn your domelight on when you shut off the ignition, the above won't work. Is domelight supervision hooked up?

And what year is your GS400?




Posted By: Derekc
Date Posted: September 21, 2004 at 11:16 PM

For the auto-headlights problem:

kgerry and JWorm:
I just reread the installation guide. H2/2 Grn/White factory alarm rearm wire provides a (-) pulse when the remote start shuts down. If I use this pulse to send a door trigger, then the auto-headlights will start counting down 30 secs to turn off.
But the car is always armed for this whole process, wouldn't sending a door trigger set off the alarm? posted_image

sroth140:
Cutting off the headlights by a relay driven by the ground-when-armed wire seems to be the answer. But I have to trace the wire so that it will go beyond the auto-headlight control. For that I have to reread the wiring diagram to see where I can add the relay. It might not have easily accessable. And needing to add a delay relay so that I can have the 30 minutes walkway illumination seems to be too complicated to the already-complicated headlights circuit.

For the "How come the alarm doesn't start arming only when the key is not in ON nor ACC position" problem,

I just tried to sit inside the car, turn the ignition on and then to ACC. Without opening up any doors, it will still count down and arm.  I have no clue why. It is supposed to wait for the last door closed to start counting down to arm. I am reading the manual and still couldn't explain. JWorm, you mentioned if the domelight supervision is hooked up (YES I DO HAVE IT HOOKED UP), then it wouldn't work.  I wonder why it is related to the domelight supervision.

And I have a 2000 GS300.

One more question, I have the IGNITION CONTROLLED UNLOCK turned on. Sometimes it opens all four doors, sometimes it opens only one door. Any idea??



-------------
DC




Posted By: JWorm
Date Posted: September 21, 2004 at 11:45 PM
Since you have a 791XV, the rearm wire sending a pulse to the door trigger will not trigger the alarm at shutdown. If you had a 790XV, it would be a problem. The software in the 791XV will ignore any door trigger immediately upon shutdown. My method will work without problems.

I'm assuming your installer used a green wire in the car for door trigger that goes up to the domelight. It catches all 4 doors but reads the delay domelight. The wire goes between the cars ECU and the domelight.
The wire you need to hit with the REARM wire goes between the door pin switch and the ECU. That is the only way the car wil shut the headlights off. There is a different wire for each door, and I believe they can only be found in the door. The wire for the front drivers door is RED / white. If Toyota/Lexus was smart, they would have made the headlights shut off after a max time of 5 minutes.

Turning off "Ignition Controlled Domelight" in the programming for the 791XV will stop the domelight from turning on when you shut the car off. That will fix your other problem. Since the domelight gets turned on for 30 seconds without opening a door, the alarm thinks a door has been opened. After the domelight shuts off is when it starts the countdown, correct?




Posted By: Derekc
Date Posted: September 22, 2004 at 2:26 PM

JWorm:

First of all, my installer didn't tie the door trigger wire from alarm to the domelight. I ran the four wires from each door and dioded them for him. He didn't connect the dome supervision either.

Last nite I tried to duplicate the problem and I observed that, after turning off and pulled the key, I simply sat inside without opening the door, in 30 secs, it ARMED. I was so puzzled. Then I spent some time reading the manual and here is the clue:

============================================
1-9: Automatic Engine Disable (AED) on/off: AED is a full-time, passive starter disable that works indenpently of the security system. When turned on, the orange, ground-when-armed output (H1/1) will activate 30 seconds after the ignition is turned off. The LED will flash at half it normal rate when the ignition is turned off to indicate hat AED is active and will interrupt the starter in 30 seconds. AED does not occur in Valet mode and can be bypassed using the energency override procedure. The transmitter can be used tto disarm AED, however, the system must be armed and then disarmed, using the transmitter to disarm AED.
============================================

And it is ENABLED BY DEFAULT! So I turned it off to see what it does. Voila! It doesn't start count down until I open the door! That fixed my "wife runs out while I wait in car" problem!

But I am still puzzled what this feature does and why it is enabled by default and how many installer don't even bother turning it off and how many customers out there are bothered by these so-called feature!

When at least one problem is resolved and I stil have question about the remote start with auto-headlight problem. JWorm, you mentioned to use the factory rearm wire to pulse the door trigger wire to the ECU so that when the remote start is timed-out (or when I shut it off), it will simulate a door open+close so that the headlight will start counting down to shutoff. And you explained that the viper software (even the car is armed) will ignore the door trigger during the remote start shutdown (Can someone else please double-confirm this as I can't find this described in the manual??). 
Well, before I invest an hour or so to do this modification, I have one more question.
We are rearming the factory alarm and that does lock the doors and enable the factory alarm and at the same time, we pulse the door wire (diode somewhere ?) so that the ECU thinks a door is opened. Won't that trigger the factory alarm as this would be considered a forceful entry (doors all locked and door open sensed)?

I wonder how many cars out there with auto-headlights and this Viper alarm with remote start (or any remote start) have this problem of headlights not turning off after remote start shutdown ? Isn't that a design problem?? There should many cars out there that have auto-headlights nowadays.  I did search and search and it seems I am the only one.

I can't accept keeping the headlight switch in off as a solution from a consumer point of view. DEI, are you reading this? Will the next version of Viper remote start alarm be improved?? Or can the viper 791XV software (firmware) be upgraded?? And if I have you reading this, can you please explain what the AED is for and why it is turned on by default?

And I still have the problem of the ignition-controlled unlock ON sometimes unlocks driver door and sometimes unlock all doors but I will narrow down why when I have time.

Thanks for your time.



-------------
DC




Posted By: kgerry
Date Posted: September 22, 2004 at 3:51 PM

trust me.... DEI executives are not reading this.... lol

they have more important things to do than troll thru  forums like this....

and actually it was me that suggested you just pulse the door pin wire replicating opening the door, similar to shutting down a RAP circuit.... so JWorm telling you the same thing should constitute your second opinion...

have you checked your owners manual or called your dealer? many perimiter lighting circuits are programmable in how they work ( on time, on/off, etc )

lastly... i am looking at the install manual in front of me and feature 1-9 AED the default is off, not on



-------------
Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer

Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979




Posted By: Derekc
Date Posted: September 22, 2004 at 5:53 PM

Kgerry:

What is RAP circuit?
I don't think my 2000 GS300 auto-headlights is programmable to allow skipping of waiting for the door to open+close. But do you think, Kgerry, that activiating factory rearm wire and door trigger will work without setting the factory alarm off?

I am looking at the Viper 791XV manual. The default for the Automatic Engine Disable (AED) is ON (one chirp).  Different manual versions maybe posted_image.

I hope JWorm can have time to reply my last posting. Or anyone's comment is welcome.



-------------
DC




Posted By: RufNUSD
Date Posted: September 22, 2004 at 8:39 PM
Jworms idea of using a relay off of the GWA (org wire) results in a constantly energized relay which means-------you still have a dead battery.

Kgerry is absolutely correct by using factory arm wire on the door trigger. I had to do this on my Odyssey after installing a RAP circuit. Cheers----Mel

-------------
Someone pass me that bottle.




Posted By: JWorm
Date Posted: September 23, 2004 at 12:08 AM
AED comes from the factory programmed to off. Double check the manual and you will see what KGeryry and I mean. factory settings are in BOLD, not the left column. I always leave it off for customers....most of them wouldn't understand it if I left it on. Knowing that the 4 true door pin wires were used originally would have made the problem here more obvious.

AED is meant to make the vehicle more secure by requiring you to disarm everytime before starting. Even if you shut the vehicle off and run into the convenience store for a minute. Might be useful in high crime areas, but certainly not where I live.

The auto-headlight feature is not an issue that DEI created. The OEM's not shutting off the headlights after a certain amount of time is the problem. I know Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infinity vehicles are both effected by this problem. Probably some other companies too. If the installer knows what he is doing, the problem is easily worked around.

I don't recall ever saying to use the GWA wire to trigger the relay to pulse the dor trigger. I said Rearm wire.

You would have to split the rearm wire with diodes if you are using it to pulse the lock wire to rearm the alarm. Or you could just not have it rearm the factory alarm....but I'm sure that wouldn't be acceptable to you.

Did I miss any questions?






Posted By: Derekc
Date Posted: September 24, 2004 at 10:24 PM

JWorm] wrote:

br>You would have to split the rearm wire with diodes if you are using it to pulse the lock wire to rearm the alarm. Or you could just not have it rearm the factory alarm....but I'm sure that wouldn't be acceptable to you.

Did I miss any questions?


KJorm:

I know I am the anal type. I know most installers don't like customers like me knowing more than just how to use the buttons.
Here is the page 64 of the 791XV installation manual:posted_image

I am seeing feature 1-9 AED is defaulted to ON. Maybe you have different manuals but this is the one that came with my two viper 791XVs. 
Well, that means if installers leave it as default, customers will experience the "wife runs out while I wait in car" problem.

Thanks for the suggested solution for my remote start + auto headlights problem. Even I still have a bit of concern about pulsing the door trigger from the factory rearm wire (when remote start shuts down) that would or would not trigger the armed viper or factory alarm, no doubt this would be the best solution and I will give it a try.

Sorry for being such a pain and I do really appreciate your expertise.



-------------
DC




Posted By: JWorm
Date Posted: September 24, 2004 at 11:12 PM
I am staring at an electronic version of the manual. Option 1-9 has "Automatic Engine Disable" in bold. I have used the bitwriter on hundreds of DEI alarms in my years of installing and never has AED been enable by default. Looking at your photocopied version, you can't even tell that the word "Bold" is in bold.

I wish more customers understood alarms more like you. Then they might understand that the $149 alarm special at the hack shop down the street is basically pointless if they are trying to prevent someone from steeling something in there car.   Your car is actually a fun car to work on for me because its actually a little challenging.

""   Even I still have a bit of concern about pulsing the door trigger from the factory rearm wire (when remote start shuts down) that would or would not trigger the armed viper or factory alarm, no doubt this would be the best solution and I will give it a try.   ""

The factory alarm is not armed while the vehicle is remote started, so it can't be triggered when it shuts down and receives the rearm pulse from the Viper.

Whether or not the factory alarm will arm if it receives a pulse on the lock wire and a door trigger wire at the same time I'm not so sure about. Try this....open only the drivers door and lock the vehicle with the key. Close the door a second later. Does it arm the factory alarm (indicated by the factory security light)? If it does, you have nothing to worry about.




Posted By: RufNUSD
Date Posted: September 25, 2004 at 12:13 AM
My bad-------I meant for that to be towards sroth140. Yes the factory rearm is correct as you stated. Cheers.

-------------
Someone pass me that bottle.




Posted By: Derekc
Date Posted: September 25, 2004 at 2:19 PM

AED stands for  "Automatic Engine Disable". It is a feature that will kill the starter (and in this case, it seems to arm the car also) 30 sec after key is no longer in ON position without the need to open+close the door. When "Automatic Engine Disable" is ON (BOLD by default), this feature is ENABLED.
I don't think I am confused about the words "Disable" in  "Automatic Engine Disable" and the word ON or ENABLED (of the feature). Or am I the only one who got this confused??
JWorm, if Option 1-9  "Automatic Engine Disable" in BOLD, as in my printed manual page shown above, that means it is ENABLED and having that enabled will create the "wife runs out while I wait in car" problem. And I had to program it to two-chirps (not one chirp, which is the default , in bold) to disable it.

Oh well, I am not in this industry and really don't care. I was just amazed that DEI can have this ill feature enabled by default and keep shipping them that way and no customer complaints about it and installers don't even notice it.

** For ill, I meant, it A.) doesn't only kill the starter but it also arms the alarm without open+closing the door and B.) enabling this feature creates that "wife runs out while I wait in car" problem.



-------------
DC





Print Page | Close Window