2001 Caravan remote starter problem

I've been four times to a local installer of Command Start remote starters (CS350i)  to have one installed on my 2001 Dodge Caravan ES (AWD, 3.8 motor).    They have tried a new approach every time, and apparently even installed a new unit in the car today when my wife took it in, but they are having no luck getting it to start other than when the car is warmed up.  Let it sit for a couple of hours and the ignition lights come on, all indications are that it's about to start, and the starter runs for a few seconds (longer than it normally takes to start), with nary a sign from the engine... then it  shuts off.   Try it when it's warm and it starts fine with the remote.

Any suggestions?  I think they are about to throw in the towel on this car model, and if they do we'll have to go quite far afield to find another installer who thinks he can handle it.  They express that they have never run into this problem before on hundreds of cars, and with a trained installer.

Car has door locks, power doors & tail (not installed as part of this remote starter; we want just the starting), digital zoned heater, rear heater & air.... don't know what else might interfere.  Obviously something related to engine temp is preventing spark for ignition.....  HELP!

Definitely what it is.

2nd start wire is the "cold start" wire.

Thanks... I'll give them a call and ask if they hooked up the second start wire... I see it's listed on a sheet they had in the box with specs for 2001 Caravan... they list hooking it thru a 180 ohm resistor (close enough)... if they didn't do this, obviously they should have.  If they did and it still doesn't work, I may be back.

Unfortunately for the consumer, the remote start business seems to have become a highly competitive business lately, with each trying to outdo the other for low price and quick (but not necessarily thorough) installations.  I could get it installed at the dealership for $300, but am attempting it at a smaller sound system installer for half that price.

My attempt it myself on my old '91 Dakota.... nothing too complex there for electrical in comparison to the Caravan.

I have to think that tach and other basic ignition connections are OK, since it starts fine when the engine is warm (which is unfortunate when we bring it in, since the installer is 50 miles away, and the car will perform fine when we arrive! )  Each time they do something... yesterday they decided that the control module itself might be faulty and replaced it.  It worked at the installer's, but after sitting by itself for a couple of hours...  dash ignition lights come on, starter runs, no firing.

The problem must be related to engine heat, so the cold start wire idea makes the most sense.  The only other thing that is in the back of my mind (as a handy fellow  but not an installer) is that the heating system of the car is quite complex... three zoned, and sets itself to optimum settings when the car is started.   Is there a computer connection there that the ICM is somehow not seeing done... don't know.  We had a '97 Caravan prior to this and they installed a starter in it with no problem.  Is this "cold start" wire some thing new?

I'll call today re the cold start wire, and perhaps have a look at it myself to see if there is a connection off that wire.  The specs indicate it as wire #5 on the main 6 wire harness.  Not going to touch it myself; just see if it is connected to anything.   I appreciate the help.

What do these resistors have to be in regards to wattage, voltage?   Are they a 12V automotive part rather than the normal electronics resistor?

hello, i think i'm gonna jump into this conv myself, since i'm the one who installed it   i've read over all the replys so far, the tach wire i had on the blue/green wire at the coil and the command start unit self tach's. once he came back i changed the tach source to the blue/orange (if my memory serves me right) and still the same, i have the "cold start" wire running from the "ground out when running" wire going through a pair of resistors that equal high 180 ohm when i use my multimeter on them. only thing i can't remember right off is the colour wire i had them going to, i'm assuming since i got the print out from installer companion 3 program that it would be violet/purple like was mentioned in one of the other replys. the only reason i never used an injector for the tach source was because of the resivoir (beleive power sterring not sure) was blocking my path to the injector wire and i don't think the customer would like me ripping apart half his motor   but other then that all the wires and conections are solid. the only thing i can think of is maybe where i've got two resistors in series to get close to the 180 ohm mark might have something to do with it..i can't see it...but i'm running out of ideas. 

i even put it in "smart start" where it sense's the engines voltage and that still didn't change anything, after that is when i change'd out the unit itself.

stang351w wrote:

---

i have the "cold start" wire running from the "ground out when running" wire going through a pair of resistors that equal high 180 ohm

---

The wonder of the Internet, where you end up talking to the fellow on the other end!

I dropped off at your shop some things I printed off on the Net... I'm just a novice as to car wiring, and I can see that multiplex stuff now will keep me out of fiddling for good... but we both have a stake in things, being it's my car and I would really like to have my wife be able to start it on the cold winter mornings (particularly since on the worse days she usually has to go to work while I stay home (teacher and school is cancelled)--- she's a little more understanding if she can start the car from inside!).... and I'm sure you think of it as a challenge you'd like to defeat.

I was wondering, looking at some of the wiring charts... (forgive me if it's a stupid question) -- did you hook the second starter output from the start control direct through the resistor to the cold start wire?  The sketches show the 2nd starter just controlling a relay that grounds the cold start wire though the 180 ohm resistor.. separate circuit just closed by the 2nd start output.

That auex post came while I was typing mine... same idea... but I don't think he needs the two relays triggered by the starter output of the unit (though it could be done that way) because there is a second starter output on this particular remote start unit... one can trigger the starter and one (2nd starter) trigger the cold start relay.

??????

If there IS in fact a second starter output wire, why was it wired to the "grnd when running wire"??

auex is spot on this one. 

It needs a signal ONLY when the remote starter goes to crank.  It does NOT matter if they both crank the starter when it's already warm, but it cannot see a constant signal! It won't trigger the cold start function in the ecu.

Something is definitely not wired correctly. I've done a few of these with no problems too. And all I did was take a signal off the starter output wire to trigger the second relay. Never a comeback, just a couple more happy soccer moms.

This from another thread on the topic....  does this sound correct, guys?  (Though the diode route sounds too complicated when the relays will do the job)

--------------------------------------------------
There are basically three ways to take care of this.

1. What remote starter are you installing? Does it happen to have its own second starter output, be it negative or positive? If so, use this to drive your relay.

2. You need two relays.
-Tie the output of the remote starter to the 86 terminals of TWO relays. -85 on both relays goes to ground.
-87 on Relay #1 goes to constant positive; 87 on Relay #2 goes to constant ground.
-30 from Relay #1 goes to the van's yellow + starter wire.
-30 from Relay #2 goes through the 180-ohm resistor, and then to the van's PURPLE / brown - starter wire.

3. Use diodes instead. Most of the time, diodes are only used for low-current applications, and relays are used for high-current jobs.

But, did you notice how tiny the ignition wires on that van are? And the blue/red constant wire at the ignition switch is only rated for 10 amps.....so therefore, the yellow starter wire can't possibly draw much current at all!

In my opinion, you can get away with using large-size diodes, eliminating the need for one of the relays. Plus, since it's only a starter wire, it just runs for one second at a time---it doesn't stay on long enough to put much stress on the diodes.

-Take the starter output of your remote starter, and attach two diodes to it. One of the diodes will go to the van's yellow starter wire, and the other diode will go to terminal 86 of the one relay that you have already correctly set up.

-If you wire the diodes backward by mistake, you won't break anything---it simply won't work at all. Instead of worrying all day about which way to face the diode, just make a temporary connection at first---if it works, you put them the right way.

-Diodes come in different amp ratings, and the bigger ones cost slightly more, but diodes are dirt cheap anyway. I'd recommend a 6-amp diode going out to the yellow starter wire, just to be on the safe side---or if you only have small ones on hand, put two or three of them in parallel. For the diode that goes to activate your relay, use any size you'd like.

And my crude drawing of the way I see a relay connecting the cold start wire thru the resistor to ground, tapping into the starter#1 wire for activation of the relay while it's also triggering the starter....   (no terminals on relay, since I don't know them..... presume they are like my post above.   This approach is not using the Starter#2 output from the remote start module... why use it if you already have the output from Starter #1 (positive) available?

Remember that I really don't know what I'm talking about here... two days of experience talking.  Confirm, please.

Whooah!   Should have previewed that obviously... looked OK as I posted it.  Please delete, moderator.  I'll repeat text here and just link to image...'

And my crude drawing of the way I see a relay connecting the cold start wire thru the resistor to ground, tapping into the starter#1 wire for activation of the relay while it's also triggering the starter....   (no terminals on relay, since I don't know them..... presume they are like my post above.   This approach is not using the Starter#2 output from the remote start module... why use it if you already have the output from Starter #1 (positive) available?

Remember that I really don't know what I'm talking about here... two days of experience talking.  Confirm, please.

https://fwperry.net/coldstart.gif

The starter #2 output is a -  (negative) one,  which, I would think should link anything connected to it to ground during the time that Starter#1 (positive) is giving power to trigger the starter.  If you are connected from the correct cold start wire in the harness through a 180 ohm resistor to this Starter #2 port, I would think that would do the job of grounding the Cold Start wire through the resistor during firing.  If that's what you describe you have, I would think it would work.... but something doesn't.

I wonder about the resistor(s).  One post mentioned that they should be fairly "right on" in value, since it is a multiplex situation and the size of the resisor is what triggers whatever happens in the engine computer.  Presumably there is some change in the firing situation because of the cold... whether with the spark or with the fuel injection.

I tried the starter this morning.. cold time.  No luck with the remote start.  I started it with the key and let it run for about ten minutes to warm up... shut it off and tried the remote start.... started OK.

I would guess that there is no trouble with things like tach, since it starts OK when warmed up.  Since the only difference in the situation is the cold engine, it seems reasonable that the connection of the cold start wire is the key... the questions:  right wire in the harness?  right resistor value?  grounding during the strarter cycle?

One way of testing might be to take the lead connected to the cold start wire, through the resistor, and just hold it.  Start with the remote at a cold time, and touch that wire to ground during the cranking... if it triggers the engine start, then the approach works to that point.  Then either use starter #2 as the grounding, or if that doesn't work, use a relay either switched by starter 1 or 2 to ground it.

hello, well the starter #2 (or ignition #2 or acc #2) wire comming out of the command start unit is a positive output,   so that would have to be changed to a negative output by use of the relay.  and as for the resistor value, the resistors we have i beleive there is  10% variation in rating,  and when i used my multimeter i had something in the high 180 ohm range and with a 10% variation  that gives me 18 ohms either way of the 180 ohm mark. so the resistor value is right,  but what i am going to do next time is i'm going to put a relay off the starter #2 output from the unit and change it to a negative pulse and ground it with the 180 ohm resistance like someone had sent me a diagram on how to do it.  cause it is obviously something to do with the cold start wire and might be something that's just not showed up untill your van came along,  cause like i had posted befor the other installer said that he's always used the ground out when running output for the negative cold start wire.  so once i try it and if it works then i've found the way that i'm doing all the other dodge vehicles that come in with that set up of wireing.

Hi... the "Installer Companion" sheet that was in the box for the remote shows Starter #2 as negative (but maybe it's indicating that the result from Cold Start wire has to be negative (thru relay), starter #1 as positive, however the installation manual seems to list #2 it as 30 amp output (confusing).  It does list this port as "programmable", however.... "Auxiliary relay programming:  If the vehicle requires a second ignition, starter or accessory wire, the control has a built in programmable relay.  Selecting the field you wish to program, determines the output of the fifth relay."     ????????????

As to whether the situation is new, one of the other threads mentioned that after 2001 they changed the engine computer and that they often flashed the computers of the older models (like 2001) if they came into the dealer, to upgrade them.  When they flashed them, the cars apparently needed the cold start wire hooked up correctly; before the update flash it apparently didn't matter.  Perhaps this van has had the ICM flashed and behaves like the later model Caravans.  Apparently it's been common for the remote starters not to work after the ICM has been flashed, because they didn't have the cold start wire connected (since it didn't need it at that time).

I won't be in this week, and the shop is probably booked anyway.  I'll call and make an appointment for the week between Christmas and New Years if there is space, since I'm off,  and you can have at it.  I'm sure you will defeat it eventually!

Have a Merry Christmas!    :o)

Back to the initial topic.... the remote start issue is over.  I installed the additional relay and tapped it to the starter wire from the remote module  for triggering, and that additional relay grounds the Cold Start wire through the resistors when the starter is running.  It starts perfectly, at all temperatures.  I had booked to take it to the shop in Tuesday for another attempt, but I'll cancel that tomorrow (if anyone is in... looks like we are getting a blizzard).  You can probably use the time for someone else, since this one has cost you on the labor front, after four trips.   Thanks for your work so far.

However... it is erratic on normal starting now (with the key).  Sometimes starts with the key, sometimes will not, just cranks.  Starts perfectly with the remote.  The only change is the Cold Start wire being run through a relay (and resistance) to ground when the remote is being used...  I'll have to think about any possible disruption of the cold start wire circuit when the remote is not being used.

Any suggestions, anyone????

After doing some thinking about it (particularly in the early hours of the morning, when problems seem clearer), I have a hunch that my problem with not starting with the key much of the time might be from running the additional relay by tapping off the Starter 1 wire.  When you start with the key, this wire would be energized from the other (key) end (since it's hooked to the key starter wire), and would also trip the relay, giving the Cold Start wire TWO routes to ground through resistance-- with the key and with the new relay.   This will provide the resistance in parallel,  cutting the effective resistance in half (probably below the threshold of what the ICM wants to see for whatever it does with a cold engine).

Assuming the Starter 2 output on the remote starter module is isolated from Starter 1 when not being started remotely, I'll try hooking the relay to it (when the weather improves for driveway mechanics).

In the meantime, stang, I'd suggest hooking the relay for the cold start wire only to Starter 2 for triggering (assuming that also does the job of triggering the relay).    IMHO

hello again, i wanna say thanks to those who gave the advice and info, because today i had another one of those vans and i wired it up according to the sheets and ran a relay with all the resistors needed and other junk like that.

works great even when cold, but only one prob, engine light came on, anyone know why? i ran the relay of the ground when running and the other side the coild to my starter wire, then the diagram said to ground pin 30 and run pin 87a through the reisitor to the violet/brown wire which i did, it also show a diode with the strip towards the remote starter.  other then that all the wires are hooked up normally....guess dodge vans don't like me

I found the "check engine" light came on almost every time I worked on it (generally I had disconnected the battery for safety when I did some of the wire changes, in case of an accident.  I found that it cleared as soon as I disconnected/reconnected it for a few minutes again.  I suspect it's just picking up the fact that someone has cut the power for a time.  It went away every time, and has never come back.

My next project.... I bought a mess of stuff on ebay for about $25 with shipping.... a lot of no use, parts of a Koss CD controller unit, several older Rattler remote starters with some bypasses and quite a mess of relays in rows (the Rattler ones seem to have used whole rows of relays in the past... relays can come in handy) and he threw in a fairly new Rattler 369D starter unit that seems to have everything with it except a remote.  I should be able to pick up one of those at a dealer.  It still had a valid access code for tech info at Directed (Rattler HQ) so I went online and printed off the data sheets for my old '91 Dakota (no multiplex!) and will install in it some time. 

I printed off whatever I found for the '01 and '02 Caravan as well, just to see if there is anything interesting.  Didn't show any difference in the years... I think my Caravan is a "late 2001".  The only difference from the data sheet for the Command Start is that CS says for parking lights a 5.6K resistor, and Rattler says a 2.1K resistor. 

Can anyone clarify from another starter company spec sheet what the resistance to ground should be for parking lights on 2001 Caravan?  5.6K or 2.1K?

5.6k ohm is the right resistance fro the park light on the 2001 caravan ,also it is a neg .