Printer Friendly Forum Posts - Hard start when using key

I had a Viper 791installed in an 05 Tacoma, everything is working fine, except for one. The car starts fine with the remote start, but if I try to just use the key, it starts prety hard. I usually have to turn it over a few times, for a few seconds to get it to start. There is a key module installed under the dash.

Any ideas?

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2005 Tacoma V6 DC/SB

Make sure that the module has the key sense wire hooked up on it. This allows the module to know when to release it's signal to the immobilizer. Otherwise you get two codes at the same time going into the computer of the Toyota.

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Jeff
Velocity Custom Home Theater
Mobile Audio/Video Specialist
Morden, Manitoba CANADA

Are you sure you need the bypass in there? My best friend has an 05 tundra that we put the 791 xv into and he did not need the bypass. if it is not needed then you could eliminate it and see if that caused the problem.

Make sure that if there is a starter kill that the wires are all securley connected. Maybe there is not a good connection on the starter wire?

Just a guess

tim

Other questions which might lead you to a solution:

1. Is starting with the key now any different than it was before the remote starter was installed?

2. Is starting with the key now any different if the remote starter is disabled (fuse removed)?

-Michael

Good question, It is definetly much harder to start now then before the remote start was installed. And I'm going to go check on question #2.

As for whether or not I need a bypass, I was told I did by the installer because I have a chip in my key. Not sure if he was right but thats what he said.

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2005 Tacoma V6 DC/SB

I also tried installing a remote start on the same vehicle with same problems using DEI 556U key module......in order for it to start via key you need to insert the key into the ignition but not turn it until the red car light stops flashing next to the clock...when this stops flashing you can start the vehicle....I am going go try to take the 12v wire from the dei module and hook it to an accessory wire instead of a constant 12v wire and see what happens. Anyone else have another idea?

I did try to install the keysense wire from the key module...using diodes of course...and nothing..still same problem

Update: I went to Audio Express yesterday where the alarm was installed and the salesmans response was "there's no way the alarm could be sausing that", he said "it must be the trucks ignition system." I explained to him that since the car started "fine" with the remote start that therefore the ignition must be working fine. Also, I showed him the print out of of the first four responses to this thread, and he literally "laughed", saying that the suggestions above were ridiculous. I asked for the manager, who was out, so I told him i'd call in today when the manager gets in. What makes me the most mad is that he wouldn't even consider the possibility that the alarm could be causing these problems, eventhough, other competent installers (see above) had suggested viable solutions.

nokia15291 - thanks for that suggestion, i'm going to break free from work and go try it......

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2005 Tacoma V6 DC/SB

let me know what happens because i am trying to figure the same thing out!!

You do need to install two relays for the starter circuit...since the tacoma requires two starter and two ignition wires to be powered....I have had some intermittent problems with mine remote starting recently also...most of the time it works...but sometimes it does not....The bypass module' antenna is a POS...i wish they made something that could just tap into the wire harness of the factory transponder and be done

Try this, remove the fuses for the RS and also remove the key from the bypass module. This will be like removing the entire system of the RS & module from the OEM wiring. Try to start the truck now, post your results.

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Jeff
Velocity Custom Home Theater
Mobile Audio/Video Specialist
Morden, Manitoba CANADA

Well I completely removed my remote start yesterday and re-installed everything....there is a 12v relay wire on my remote start that i hooked up to the 556u..i only tried it once but it let me start with the key right away instead of having to wait 5 seconds...i am going to hopefully finish install today....i did hook up both relays to the starter wires...hopefully all works! I tested out last nite and the my doors would not unlock...think maybe the quick splice didnt work on the wire...i will have to try again...everything else works though

I went to Audio Express yesterday and they found the problem and fixed it. I got an explanation from the installer, he said "the 555U has a green wire that neded to be tied to GREEN/ black on key cylinder". This fixed it....

I think this is the same thing the first response to this thread recommended.

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2005 Tacoma V6 DC/SB

do you know if he had to install a diode to hook that wire up?

He did not say that he did, and I asked him to tell me everything he did for the sole purpose of posting the fix here.

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2005 Tacoma V6 DC/SB

he hooked up keysense.... simple problem, simple solution....

and you're right, you had the answer on the first response.....

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Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer

Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979

well i just tried that and it wont let the key module turn on at all that way..i am using the crimestopper remote start and you have to hook another wire up to keysense...so that won't work with my setup because it always thinks a key is in there

tacoma05 wrote:

Update: I went to Audio Express yesterday where the alarm was installed and the salesmans response was "there's no way the alarm could be sausing that", he said "it must be the trucks ignition system." I explained to him that since the car started "fine" with the remote start that therefore the ignition must be working fine. Also, I showed him the print out of of the first four responses to this thread, and he literally "laughed", saying that the suggestions above were ridiculous.

I guess we're all comedians who know what the heck we're talking about ?!?! Glad to have made someone laugh at Audio Express. I hate it when " sales people " think they know it all about installations problems and what not ! posted_image Any way, good to hear that you got the problem fixed at the installation place that you bought it from. Too bad they were dicks about it though in the first place.

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Jeff
Velocity Custom Home Theater
Mobile Audio/Video Specialist
Morden, Manitoba CANADA

OK Here is the deal with my problem...I have a Crimestopper CoolStart...I cannot use the (-) keysense wire because the latch output of the 556U and the status output wire from my remote start have to go on this. I cannot hook the green wire up from the 556u to this because it thinks there is always a key in it due to the fact that it is hooked to the remote start system all the time. On that ignition wiring harness though, there are two wires...that GREEN/ black one and another wire....does anyone know if the other wire is a (+) keysense wire since the GREEN/ black is a (-) keysense wire? If it is that I can just hook to that. Please help me!!

Question: when you originally did the install for the 556U, which of the wires did you use?

Here was what i thought was wrong with your original installation: In the 556U, the only wires most installations need is the 12v+ and the status wire. Theres also an IGNITION wire in the harness as well. Well, from personal experience, i connected that wire to the ignition in an explorer (that required a key bypass), and the truck had a hard time starting... about every 3rd try with the ignition key. But, it would start the first try w/ the R/S. So, make sure that the ignition wire isn't powered from your 556U. a way to check this would've been to unplug the cable that plugs into the 556.

What about keysense? just interrupt the wire. True, its a GREEN/ black (-) wire. connect 12v+ to pin 85, GREEN/ black keysense wire to pin 86. connect the R/S status output to pin 30, and the 556U's status to pin 87A. what will happen is, there'll be a connection between 87a and 30 (status outputs of both products) UNTIL a key is placed in the ignition. when that happens, the status output is broken between the two units, stopping the 556U from sending a code.

-john
BT

I have a status output on my remote start.....this hooks in the keysense wire (to turn alarm off w/o unlocking doors). This same status output on the remote start also hooks to the blue wire on the 556U module....They told me not to hook the keysense wire to anything, but by doing this the 556U stays on all the time. The 556U has a + and - keysense wire....So according to your directions I will not be usnig either one of them? When you say 556u's status to pin 87A are you referring to the blue wire?

does your remote start have factory arm/disarm wires? A single pulse of the unlock wire will disarm the factory security system. A pulse of the lock wire will rearm the alarm. when you activate the remote start, the alarm disarms, the vehicle starts, then the doors relock/alarm rearms.

If you wish to use your keysense wire for 'factory disarm no unlock' i would suggest using a pulsed wire, because the status wire will show ground anytime (and all the time) the remote start is operating.

re: my relay setup.
in OLDER universal bypass modules that required a keysense interrupt, my relay method would be used. the 556U has the ability to detect keysense already built into the unit. "556U's status to pin87a" -- yes, i was referencing the 556U's blue wire to 87a. the Remote starts' status wire to pin 30.

on the newer 556U's, you will do your normal wire connections: 12V power, ground, status (to status out from remote start), and connect the (-) keysense to the Toyota's keysense wire. When you remote start the vehicle, the 556U monitors that keysense wire. As soon as a key is stuck into the cylinder, the 556U detects that, and shuts down (and will come back on when the key is removed)

-john
BT

That is what I was trying to say....it shows a ground at all times and it will not work that way.....I don't mind wiring up a relay...would this still work on the 556u model?

I do have to use the status output of the RS to "factory disarm no unlock"...this is the only way it will work..... but in my setup will i still be able to use the relay..right now i have:

RS status output hooked up to the truck's keysense wire and the blue wire from the 556u. But by having it connected this way the 556U always stays on and never turns off even if I don't start with the RS. Would wiring this relay in make any difference then?

i've never seen a vehicle in which the only way it'll disarm the factory security is only through the keysense. 100% of the vehicles i've done work either through a separate f.disarm wire or a single pulse of the unlock (if the unlock/disarm are on the same wire)

what i don't understand is you're saying the f.alarm is only disabled when the keysense is grounded. so, does the alarm re-arm if you were to say, disconnect the status from keysense?

if you had any low-current (-) ignition outputs (to say, hook up a relay to power a 2nd ignition/2nd starter,etc), i'd use that connected to the keysense wire. then connect the two status wires (556U and r/s brain) together. That *SHOULD* disarm the alarm when the R/S got the command to start. 556U sends the code. As soon as you put the key in the ignition, you'll have a second or two where the two keys may see eachother (you'd have this regardless unless you did the keysense interrupt [per my relay]), step on the brake -- shuts down the 556U, and the (-) ignition output as well.

thats about the best suggestion i have if you can't use the factory lock/unlock wires for ARM/DISARM. I don't have experience with crimestopper r/s's... but which model do you have and maybe i can find a manual to aid in more assistance..

-john
BT

https://www.crimestopper.com/techweb/InstructionBooks/RemoteStart/RS900VIIinstallRevA.pdf

Someone had posted this on another forum...would this work or is your way better?.

constant 12+ = 85
status output = 86
ground 87 to car body
556U blue wire and keysen! se wire GREEN/ black = 30

i think thats the same way as you have it now... the keysense wire will activate the 556U relay inside, because the blue 556 wire is still connected to the keysense wire.

with my way, the keysense wire is still accessed, however not using the status outputs. The trucks' keysense will never be connected to either of the blue status wires.

I see the wiring diagram. this "second ignition wire" that i talk about 2-3 posts up, is yellow/black in the diagram. you'd want it to be set up as "negative ignition output"

are you 100% positive that you can't use the f.disarm wire [pin 9]? you didn't tell me the results of my 'what if' question above. I'd be curious to what would happen if you would just momentarily touch that keysense wire to ground before you remote started the unit.

Yes the yellow/black is setup as a - ignition output. If I just momentarily touched the keysense wire I don't think it would work..my alarm disarms with unlock and arms with lock.... i have no more ideas..i even tried installing a diode like DEI suggested and that didnt work...Should I try your relay setup? Do you think that would work...my wiring diagram for my truck is listed in another discussion if you search for "05 tacoma wiring" Even though we aren't finished yet I wanted to thank you for all of your help so far!! I hope we can ge this figured out

you're welcome.

if the yellow/black is set up as a negative ignition output, it'll show (-) ground during the whole time the remote start is operating (just like the status wire), however my suggest was to use the yellow/black so that the status outputs weren't tied into the keysense (so you could actually use a key to start the vehicle normally)

Have you tried using the wires on the crime stopper to disarm the factory alarm (via single pulse unlock?). to do this, you'd connect the two wires from the crimestopper to the lock and unlock wires of the p-door locks. if your crimestopper had keyless entry, you'd tie both the F.disarm wire with the unlock wire, and F.arm with the lock.

I have DEI's Directwire software, so i am aware of the trucks' wiring diagram. you can try using the F.arm/F.disarm approach or you could try my relay approach. Both should give you results better than what you have now. What do you have to lose ?

You should be able to just diode the keysense wire and the 556u status wire then hook them up to the rs status wire. That would only allow the 556u to be active only during remote start. You should not have to use the keysense wire on the 556u for this vehicle.

Yes I have it hooked up to disarm and arm factory alarm...i have to use double pulse unlock for my vehicle though....also i tried hooking up w/o using keysense wire as you had asked before and as soon as vehicle tries to start the alarm goes off.....so i need to hook yellow/black up to keysense wire....how about diode isolating all of the wires from each other....would this work? how would i wire that?

OK I tried hooking up the relay like you said and it works great when I put the key in but the RS will not work at all that way....I can tell because there is a red "key" flashing meaning that it is not picking up a key code....So hooking the relay up that way completely does not let the RS work at all.....but works when I insert the key.... Any other ideas??? I think this is just going to be like this ...I can;t think of any ideas at all....

WOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I finally got it.... All I had to do was install the diode as stated in a previous post!!! Thank you so much everyone for your help!!!!

OK looks like I celebrated a little too soon!!! Now from installing that diode my truck with remote start and the key works fine but everytime it remote starts the alarm goes off from having that diode installed...... I have to have something latched onto that keysense wire during the remote start...would i be able to wire a relay that would solve this problem?? i do still have the diode installed..please let me know if anyone has any ideas......it is starting to look like i am going to just leave the key in the ignition for five seconds before starting the the ignition recognizes the key in the ignition instead of the RS key

Are you sure you got the diode for the keysense wire going the right direction. If you do you will have to build a relay to feed the keysense wire. 85 to status out ,86 to 12 volt constant , 30 to ground and 87 to keysense. I read the manual for that system and was wondering if you had tried to use the orange wire to pulse the keysense wire. It should disarm the alarm that way but dont know if it will rearm and go off after starting.

I tried the orange and all other available wires...the alarm goes off while it is starting...so that doesn't work at all......so if i diode the keysense wire and blue from 556u...i still hook up this relay? i thought i had it working fine until the alarm went off as it was remote starting...the keysense shut off part was working fine though when i put my key in...i cant win either way!!

Undo your status wire from keysense wire and meter the status wire while remote starting,to make sure you are getting a ground from the status wire. If not your diode is in backwards, if you are getting a ground you need to build a relay as above. If done this way you can remove the diodes.

Would this work?

the blue wire on the 556u will make it always transmit the code from the key. this is not good because he car might have complications if it detects 2 signals at the same time.

are you diode isolating correctly? cathode (lined side) faces the status output wire and anode (non-lined) faces the keysense and the other diode anode faces the blue wire on the 556

OK Now I got it!!!!

You need to diode the status output from the remote start to the status of the 556U

And then you need to wire a relay as follows:

85 to status out, 86 to 12 volt constant , 30 to ground and 87 to keysense

All you hsould have to do is connect 2 diodes cathode side (lined) to the status out of rs. connect the other side of one diode to keysense wire and the other blue wire of the 556u. Thats all you should have to do unless the status output on the rs is not strong enough to control both, if not then build the relay.