Printer Friendly Forum Posts - Door popping circuit

Hi there guys.

I have been recommended to you because i was told you know your stuff. I have a question.

On my old car, i removed the lock and the handle from the outside and replaced it with an electronic opening system. The central locking was operated from a remote key fob, this "unlocked" the doors. Then i had another circuit which was another solenoid which "popped" the door open. This was operated from a button on the outside of the car. Now, this "popping" circuit was made active by the inclusion of a microswitch which was "physically" enabled by the upwards motion of the "unlocking" solenoid.

This way, the button on the outside of the car didnt operate the "popping" circuit while the "unlocking" circuit solenoid was in the "down" position, ie unlocked.

It all sounds rather complicated, i have included a diagram i hope will help you understand.

My question is, is there anything i can replace the microswitch with? It was a bit unreliable due to the physical movement which was needed to push the switch. I would perfer if this was electronic or some other way of doing it, maybe a relay?

I hope you can help me,

Paulie

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Hello!!!

I have done many shaved door systems and I know this might not help you much, but here is what I DO.

Have the alarm setup so when you disarm your alarm your door unlocks. Then with a second output on your Keyfob like trunk pop press and your door will open. Now what if you alarm dies and your battery is dead. well this is where you have to have an access panel that you can have a manual pull to open door if everything battery operated doesn't work. Even with your system I hope you have a back up plan. My first turck I did back in 1991 did not have a backup plan and was gone for a month on vacation when I came home my battery had died and I was not able to gain entry. So I had to break out my window. I have to say I have learned. That is just one of many backup's I have done on cars and trucks. I have added backup gell cells that is key op. Many different ways to do things now days.

Hope this help some.

Red.

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TanZ2004
Washington State

hi there.

Thanks for your reply, but that dosent really help me. My remote key fob is just a simple "push to open/push to close" system. I do have a backup procedure also, i have 2 terminals underneath the car in a waterproof block, and if i connect a battery to it the doors unlock and open.

But my problem still remains, is there a better way to do the system i described in the first post without the use of a physical push on a microswitch?

I dont want to get another remote kit, due to safety test reasons and also i dont want to pay for more remote stuff!

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Hello!!!

i don't really know about door poppers but try to hook up a mercury switch to the rod?????? then it will activate the button when u unlock

a mercury switch... this will be like a physical movement of mercury is this correct? Still the physical aspect is there. I used to have problems when parked on stepp inclines etc, that the microswitch wouldnt trip, so i was looking for an electronic replacement.

Im starting to think its impossible and im stuck with my microswitch forever! Just need a plan to make it more stable or something...

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Hello!!!

how do these work and how could i apply it? I dont think ive heard of one before. Cheers for the idea.

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Hello!!!

i suppose that will kinda be similar to the microswitch. But thanks for the idea, given me something else to think about!

Im sure there must be a more reliable system out there, i just need more ideas!

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Hello!!!

thats a very good question my friend!

The thing is, both front doors are connected to the remote, so if i use the unlocking circuit as a popping circuit, then both doors would open at the same time. It needs to be related to another circuit.

Also the locking arms the alarm, and also leaving your car unlocked at all times just dosent feel right!!!

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Hello!!!

I did a car one time and used a magnetic switch (like for house alarms) like BOBK described. But I installed it in a different manner. I wired it in a normally opened setup and placed it just inside the upper front glass. When you pass the magnetic part (or any other magnet for that matter) over the glass it triggers the circuit. So basically you just keep the magnet on your keys and you wave it over the spot where ther sensor is behind the glass and that triggers the door to pop open. Its like a magnet "key", and an invisible lock.

i was thinking something like that...

if your alarm ad an unarmed output you could use this with a relay. instrae of the switch.

if the alarm is real basic. You could put a relay off the unlock trigger but this would mean standing beside the car with finger on the door popper button when you press the alarm disarm. because the unlock is just a pulse..

i deally what you would need is if you had done light supervision. or a system that turned on the dome light when unarmed. this would mean that you could wire a relay off that circuit and have about 20-3- secs to press the button before the light went out..

what alarm do you have did you do the install post details of the alarm

The magnet thing is interesting, i was thinking something similar with a barcode or thumb print reader behind the glass. Unfortunately, for saftey reasons over here in the UK you need to have a "physical" means to enter the car from the outside, such as a button or handle. Just having no obvious means to get in means your car will not be deemed road worthy.

Powermyster, this is the sort of thing i was interested in. Agree'd, when you "unlock" the doors with the key fob, it is just a pulse that goes through the system to the solenoid, and as such does not remain active. Is there a means that once you have pressed this button on the fob, it clicks over a relay and then the "popping" circuit will have power for say 30 seconds, thus giving you time to actually press the popping switch to open the door?

The light in the car only comes on with a physical switch, or when the door is ajar as it operates on a push switch in the door jam. Having it come on when you unlock (like on most modern cars) would have been perfect, but the car is too old to have this.

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Hello!!!

I'm not familiar with all the DEI Codes 555U, 529T ect.. so i can't give you the code but i'm nearly sure they do i timer relay. i've read about guys on here using them.

It might work. also is there a site where you can see all of these DEI modules and there codes and usages

https://www.radiomancaraudio.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=DE528T

found this 528T hope this helps

now we are getting into the area im looking for!

I found this at the UK version of radioshack, Maplins.

https://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=25224&TabID=1&WorldID=&doy=22m7

Would this do the trick? It has 5 ports which are the 2 inputs, and the other 3 are a common and NO and NC.

So how would this figure in my system, i have made a revised diagram, could anyone take time to look at it? This is evolving all the time, thanks for your ideas.

posted_image

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Hello!!!

use the DEI timer its worth waiting a few days for.

the maplins ones are little kits that you make i think. the dei or similar are made for cars so go with something like that.

use everthing the way that you had it. but just take away the micro switch and use the relay instead.

https://www.directechs.com/guides/manuals/ig/accessories/N528T_01-05.pdf

look at the manual here is how to wire it..

Red = 12V source

Black = ground

blackw/ stripe = unlock trigger

take way micro switch and attach wires to Brown and Yellow Orange will not be used....

set the relay to 20,30,40.....90 seconds whatever suits you

hope this helps

that wont work i dont think.

If i just replace the microswitch with the relay. In the first diagram if you have a look, the popping circuit is not electronically linked to the unlocking circuit. The unlocking circuit makes the popping circuit active by physcially pushing the microswitch with the top of the solenoid. Sorry if this looks misleading.

The maplins ones come as a unit by the looks of it. Granted they are not as nice as the ones from radio shack, but the thing is they are £3 and the other ones are a lot more expensive...!

Would it not be correct in my second diagram? That is just a replacement for the microswitch as far as i can see it?

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Hello!!!

i'm sure what i've just written will work. the relay is replacing the switch.

your (-) unlock trigger off the alarm will trip the door unlock and the timer relay.

the circuit will then be completed for the preset length of time...

then you come alond and press your button. door pops open voila

yes, thats right, but by simply just replacing the microswitch with the relay wont work as that circuit is completly different to the unlocking circuit. They are only linked by the physical movement of the solenoid to push the microswitch. Do you gets me? Hard to explain.

If i was to simply swap the switch for the relay then the circuits would not be linked.

So id have to "tap into" the unlocking circuit as i have removed the previous method of "physical movement" which activated it.

So will my last diagram work, in theory? Im not too hot on electrics, and it took me forever to come up with my original microswitch design. Are all my earths and lives in the correct place in my new diagram?

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Hello!!!

they will be linked electronically the way that i said..

the unlocking output from the alarm tap into that with the black with stripe from the timer relay...

thats your link there.

you press the button the wire from alarm pulses (-) to the central locking Unlocking the door.

and because you've tapped into it it pulses (-) to the timer relay. completing the other circuit...

i had a look at the other diagram. but didn't quite get it..

its confusing to show on a diagram coz its not actually like that in real life, but thats the only way i could explain it!

Right, by tapping into the unlocking circuit and placing the timing relay in there, that should work im thinking. I can set it to say 60 seconds before it clicks off and the button will not activate the door popping.

This is a very good idea, and just the type i was looking for. This way i can remove the unreliablity of having a physical switch, and replace it with an electronic device.

Would thatone from Maplins work? I mean its essentially the same thing as the one from radioshack. On-board timers, 2 inputs and an output with a N/O, N/C and a common?

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Hello!!!

personally i would got with the DEI 528T or something made specifically for cars.

just looking at the maplins thing there and i'm sure i seen similar kits in there the last time a was in and they look like they have no casings..

also if using the 528T or any timer relay. don't put it in the door. too much vibration and moisture. only run wires into the door

yeah, sure.

For the sake of £3, i think the maplins are the way forward. Even if it dosent work its only been a few £. It dosent come with a case, but i can easily make a case from plastic and fibreglass.

I just want something more reliable than the old microswitch, as it had a habit of not tripping on steep inclines for example.

So do you think i might be successful with this type of design? I suppose it makes sense.

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Hello!!!

hope it works out for ya

cheers.

Here is the diagram which i am going to follow. Can anyone see any problems that i might face with such a system?

posted_image

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Hello!!!

the "Timed Relay" is activated by a pulse, sorry i forgot to add that.

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Hello!!!

yes, i understand that, but im trying to make this system on minimum cost! Id like to try the cheapest alternative before actually buying the top parts.

I have found this about the Maplins pulse relay, can someone please advise because as i said i am terrible with electrics.

Specifications

output relay with dry switch-over contact: 3A/24V
pulse time adjustable: between 0.5 and 5s
pause time adjustable: between 2.5 and 60s
power supply: 12Vdc / 100mA
dimensions: 40 x 85mm (1.6" x 3.4")

Would this be adequote?

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Hello!!!

ok then, the project is a go'er. Well, unless anyone else can think of any other idea's!

This was the sort of thing i was thinking of when i made my first attempt, but i didnt know that you could get a relay to stay over with just a short pulse.

I really appreachiate the help so far, and the on-going advice.

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Hello!!!

thats what we are here for..

Ok guys, the plot thickens...

Im going to buy some of these https://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/MK111 from Maplins, they are only cheap and will do the job.

Now, i started to think about various scenaro's... The circuit we talked about earlier will work a treat, BUT ONLY if you are wanting to get into the car and drive away.

What if i use the system, get in the car then drive away. Then i pull up to pick one of my friends up. I stay in the car with the engine running. PROBLEM, the system was only primed for the first 60 seconds since i activated the unlocking, and therefor the one of the passenger side is now inactive and will only become active if i operate the locking mechanism again.

Now what do i do!!!

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Hello!!!

There must be a solution somewhere!

ok then, try this. What if there is someone in my car, i get out and leave the keys in there so the stereo is playing for them.

I come back from the shop, and i cant get in unless they have to climb over from the other seat and open the door for me.

Any ideas on an electrical system to combat this problem?

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Hello!!!

well, i guess its not a great problem here, but you can see that it may cause problems in some scenaro's.

Instead of a timer, it should be permenant until the locking circuit is turned to "lock".

The key fobs have "lock" and "unlock" on them, so i guess even though the car may well be in an "unlocked" state, pressing the unlock button again will activate the circuit by putting a pulse though it.

Anyone any ideas to beat this electronically?

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Hello!!!

I don't want to wade through the 3 pages but this is what it sounds like will do the trick, basically open a second door without a physical switch.
How about you bypass all the bullshhh, buy an alarm that has progressive locks, don't hook the locks up at all, hook the first unlock to a relay that goes to the driver's door, hook the second unlock to a relay that goes to the passengers door. All this timer crap, this that or the other crap, or anything else is just rediculous. Buy a quality alarm that has progressive locks so that you hit unlock once the driver's door pops, hit it again and the passenger's door pops.

PS. A quality alarm will have a programable output that you can turn your radio on by the remote, that will take care of leaving the keys in the ign to turn the radio on.

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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

hi there. Im sorry if its sounding like rubbish, plus its just a bit of fun really, trying to solve a problem.

Over here in the UK, there must be a means to enter the car from the outside you see. You cant just have the door pop open from a remote key fob. There has to be something such as a button on the outside of the car.

Thats why im looking for a system that will allow the button on the outside to function once the car is unlocked, and not function when it is locked.

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Hello!!!

paulieA wrote:

Over here in the UK, there must be a means to enter the car from the outside you see. You cant just have the door pop open from a remote key fob. There has to be something such as a button on the outside of the car.

Thats why im looking for a system that will allow the button on the outside to function once the car is unlocked, and not function when it is locked.

Ok, is the external means of entry enforced? If so how?
Second, the whole work when unlocked not when locked is also easily answered. Ground when armed.

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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

the law is enforced yes. In the UK with have a thing called a "MOT test" every year, which tests almost all aspects of the car to a set of rules, in regards to saftey. One of the laws is:

"There must be a obvious means of entry to the vehical from the outside". ie, a button on the door or door pillar. Now if there is a button, you only want it to open the door when the door is unlocked.

Could you help me with your suggestion of ground when armed through a simple diagram or explanation? Im looking for idea's as im fairly new to electronics.

Thanks!

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Hello!!!

This is a simple diagram. Basically when your alarm is active the external switches are not.

posted_image

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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

hi there.

Im sorry, i dont understand the diagram. I am new to electronics and am finding it difficult, thats why i thought id ask on here for the experts. I can only really understand from illustration.

I have drawn up this new diagram of what i have in my head at the moment.

Would you guys be able to add to my diagram, or draw up a new one for how the "Ground when armed" will work? I will be pleased if you can help.

posted_image

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Hello!!!

OK, just to clarify. You don't have door handles, why are you even using the locks??? Your battery will go dead and then you will be screwed, even if you have your black box to pop the door the door will still be locked!!!

Never mind, I give up. You are making everything more compicated then they have to be. I don't know I may do an entire system diagram later but I give up for now.

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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

paulieA wrote:

Im sorry, i dont understand the diagram. I am new to electronics and am finding it difficult, thats why i thought id ask on here for the experts. I can only really understand from illustration.

Relays

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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

ha ha.

I guess.... in a way... i dont have to actually lock the car. And as for just putting "Relays", thats all well and good but i have never actually used one before.

This was just an idea you know, gave me something to think about as i was trying to learn about electics and how things work. But i take your point, i dont really have to lock the doors.

Ok then, lets look at it this way. I wont have the doors locked. But i do still need a way for the button on the outside of the car to only work when the keyfob has been pressed. Can a basic diagram for this be drawn up so i know which wires to wire into the relay?

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Hello!!!

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Certified Security Specialist
Always check info with a digital multimeter.
I promise to be good.
Tell Darwin I sent you.

I've been sick lately, sorry I won't be on much.

ah, thanks for your time. Im affraid i cant follow that diagram. As i said, im new to electronics and have never used a relay before, so all the pins mean nothing to me. I dont know the diffrence and what each one does.

All i know is, i want a button on the outside of my car that will only operate when the keyfob has been pressed, and will not work any of the other time.

auex, does this system above work as the keyfob remote only sends a short pulse through to the solenoids.

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Hello!!!

i do like the idea's, but i just dont understand. Im sorry if this offends, i was just told by a friend that this forum is very helpful when it comes to technical help.

Im just looking for a solution to my problem is all, and i cant understand the above diagram as its just coloured lines to me, id need some helpful explanations with it for a newbie like myself.

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Hello!!!

its not that i dont want an alarm that has this function, its the fact that in the UK you need a button on the outside of the car.

Simply having the door pop open from a remote is not enough to pass the safety test you have to take each year, so the car wont be legal. If the cops pull you over, they check all the documents and if you dont have the safety certificate then you will lose your license. I hope this explains it a bit better.

So i need a button on the outside, but not one that works when im not at the car otherwise anyone will just press it and be able to jump in.

Because the remote keyfob button only sends a pulse through the system, just having a normal relay is not good enough as it will click over when it pulses, but then click back straight away again. I need something that will click over with the pulse, and then stay there.

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Hello!!!

that is what i want to do bobk.

Press the remote key fob button which then enables the door popping circuit, allowing me to push a button on the outside of the car to gain entry.

If the remote key fob button has not been pressed, then the button on the outside of the car will do nothing.

Its the help with the relay's i need, as i dont know how to set them up to achive my task. I was under the impression that just a pulse from the remote key fob circuit will go through the relay, click it over, and then once the pulse has passed it will immediately click back over. This will only give me a spilt second to press the button on the outside of the car, which will not be good enough.

I hope this explains things a bit better.

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Hello!!!

Can anyone look at my resived diagram below, and tell me if it will work. I have incorporated a standard relay and i think this might cure my problem of the timer shutting down the system once i am in the car and driving. Thanks for all your help on this.

posted_image

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Hello!!!

i can't follow your diagrams. but get this.. Use the time like a was saying then use another SPDT RElay off the ignition harness to bypass the micto switch again.

so what will happen is that you will press the fob. and you have 60 to press the button to open the door.

the once you start the car the circuit is always complete. then switch off the ignition and is cun gain..

use the timer to gain entry and a standard relay for when the ign is on

hi Powermyster. Sorry if you cant follow my diagrams, i dont know how to draw electrical diagrams properly.

But what you have said above is exactly what my diagram shows! The normal relay comes from the ignition which then bypasses the timer circuit meaning the popping circuit is always open when the igntion is on. If the ignition is off, then the interal buttons still work, but the external buttons only work once the keyfob has been pressed.

I think this is my final design.

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Hello!!!

p.s what are you using to draw the diagrams they are looking very neat

i use the age old technique of paintbrush! Its great for simple diagrams coz it has sqaure, line and simple tools like that. Its a bitmap editor so everything is really easy to change, no pissing about with layers like in photoshop.

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Hello!!!

you may have decided how to overcome your problem but if you use an aftermarket 5 wire actuator to unlock the door then you have a microswitch that is built into the actuator! 5 wire motors more often than not have a green, blue, brown, white, red or black wire, the green and blue wires are the drive wires the black or red is the input wire leaving the brown and white as the output wires, these are needed to send a negative pulse back to the locking module so it inturn opens the rest of the doors, if you connect the black or red wire to ground then you will get a neg output on the brown when lock and a neg output on the white when unlocked or the otherway around i can never remember i think that this will be the easiest way to get around your problem let me know how you go good luck

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I Love This Industry!!

xtreme069, that's very good thinking. I hadn't even thought of that idea.
That does sound like a solution that you should use paulieA.

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Steve G

yeah never though of that.... something could deffinately be done that way...

xtreme. Thanks for your reply. This sounds very interesting, and a hell of a lot less work than the circuit i was looking at.

Are you able to help me out on it? As i said, im fairly new to electronics, but i think i have the general idea. Would you perhaps be able to knock me up a small diagram for my scenaro, or help me with more info on your method?

Your right, i have a master solenoid that is a 5 wire one. Green and blue go to the slave solenoids, the other 3 go to the locking module.

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Hello!!!

sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you, whats your email address i'll send you a diagram

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I Love This Industry!!

hi matey. Thats ok, i havent fitted anything yet.

I have fitted the "popping" solenoids and mechanism, and when 12v is applied to it, the door pops open fine. Now i just need to electrics to back it up.

My email address is paulieadamson@hotmail.com

Thanks for your time and help, i look forward to seeing the diagram.

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Hello!!!