Remote Start Safety
Printed From: the12volt.com
Forum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=65251
Printed Date: May 20, 2024 at 11:52 PM
Topic: Remote Start Safety
Posted By: vietfrost
Subject: Remote Start Safety
Date Posted: October 29, 2005 at 3:19 PM
I'm installing remote start on my manual transmission car. Is there any way I can use the wire the identifies the vehicle is in neutral/park to set it up to check whether the ebrake is up or not? I know I could just ground the wire so it still starts remotely, but I'd like some safety feature on it to prevent it from driving off.
Replies:
Posted By: mo12v
Date Posted: October 29, 2005 at 3:41 PM
If you are using a Remote Start NOT intended for Manual Transmission...........Best thing is NOT put it on.............
There is a device made by PERIPHERAL called a NSS ( Neutral Safety ByPass )
I hope you understand the DANGER in what you are about to do.........
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MO
Don't Learn from Others Mistakes
You Might Be the One That Knows.
Posted By: iskidoo
Date Posted: October 29, 2005 at 3:50 PM
What brand/model unit...vehicle/year? Usually you can use the hood input for that kind of application.
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Steve G
Posted By: iskidoo
Date Posted: October 29, 2005 at 4:04 PM
Well I'd rather see someone use the manual safe units but what I was referring to is hooking the nuetral sense when wire that he says the vehicle has and a parking brake wire on the hood input. I'd rather see someone do that then hear "Oh don't worry I ALWAYS remember to leave my car in nuetral and set the parking brake" -OR- "I don't want to have to set it up everytime because that's such a hassle". Like being safe is such an inconvenience.
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Steve G
Posted By: iskidoo
Date Posted: October 29, 2005 at 5:36 PM
I agree Bob that the manual safe unit is what he should get. But what I tend to think is every week we see some newbie come in and post "How do I bypass my clutch on such and such..." or try to minipulate the words to get the info because they know we don't want to help them do it unsafely. Or argue... "Oh don't worry I ALWAYS remember to leave my car in nuetral and set the parking brake" -OR- "I don't want to have to set it up everytime because that's such a hassle". Those are usually the guys that researched the old posts and saw us stonewalling them and figured they would just do it anyway. Well as time goes on I always think that guys gonna end up killing someone and we never see them post again about it. I figure maybe 1 out 10 guys that we say NO to actually returns the unit and buys the right one.
In this instance I saw something different. A person who is actually cognizant of the danger of what he is planning to do and looking for some guidance on how to make it safe. If you noticed my answer was pretty vague initially. Yes I would like to see him return the unit and buy one designed for a manual. Do I actually think he will? Well, i can always hope.
But I've thought about how a starter could be adapted to work safely on a standard before I knew that they were actually designed for them. There's using a switch on the parking brake that is only open to ground when it's pulled all the way up. Triggering the clutch bypass relay to work only if it gets a ground from the vehicles nuetral safety wire(if equipped). I did misread his post so thanks for pointing that out.
I never installed one into a standard until recently because I was always afraid that it wasn't safe and I'd be liable. Until I learned about the manual units and finally did one. It was for my brother as a gift because I wanted to see how it all came together. I used the Ultrastart 1256M (manual) unit.
LOL! You know what the first thing he said was?
"I gotta do that setup thing everytime?
That's a pain in the ass!
What happens if I forget to set it up?"
I said "Nothing, but at least it's safe and after 1 or 2 times of forgetting to set it up in the zero degree weather, you'll remember.
So if someone expresses interest in trying to do it safely then yes I'll try to convince them to swap units as I have many times in prior posts. But everytime we say that and we don't hear from that guy again...I think the worst.
So back to my original question...
iskidoo wrote:
What brand/model unit...vehicle/year?
------------- Steve G
Posted By: iskidoo
Date Posted: October 29, 2005 at 6:44 PM
In this case? I already said that I misread Bob. I gave examples of how to use a unit if you have the nuetral safety wire. I pointed out the fact that any unit could be used if you take the time to add preventitive measures and you genuinely care about being safe. If someone comes into a forum and says can you help me do this safely...do you automatically assume they are trying to con you? There isn't only one way that is right "Bob's way" as much as you would like to believe it. What's scary is how stubborn and narrow minded some people are. Have you ever purchased something that (although misinformed) you thought would work but then realized that it's not exactly what you needed? Was unable to return it and then figured...hmmm, I can probably use this but I'll have to do a little more work but I'm confident that by asking for help I can achieve my objective. I don't feel that in this instance the guy was trying to circumvent safety and dupe us all. I feel he was trying to get help making it work and making it safe. I'm sure if you look back at my posts involving manual transmissions then you will see that I do not in fact condone or help people that want to just use no safety precautions.
Did you see me post... PM me ;) and I'll tell you how to wire it up so you don't have to be safe? I think not.
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Steve G
Posted By: gh057
Date Posted: October 29, 2005 at 7:15 PM
Not really sure if it's relevant or not and I know im kinda new here. But I have been a guy buying a starter and trying to put it in myself sometimes the customer doesn't always get asked the right questions by a salesperson ie. Are you putting this in a manual transmission car?? I agree 100% that you shouldn't bypass neutral safety but perhaps we need to not always jump to the conclusion that the person asking is an idiot and doesn't care about what he may be wanting to do. Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: gh057
Date Posted: October 29, 2005 at 7:20 PM
Posted By: dualsport
Date Posted: October 30, 2005 at 12:41 AM
Haven't looked at any of the manual tranny RS units referred to here, but just out of curiousity, are these units intended solely for specific manual transmission cars with certain sensors built in by the manufacturer?
e.g., sensor/switch that will provide an indication when the car is in neutral?
A parking brake sensor alone wouldn't be really be safe enough since that would be dependent on the adjustment point where it trips. If the brake is only engaged lightly but the sensor says it's "applied", it wouldn't be sufficient to prevent the car from lurching forward.
It would seem a factory installed neutral gear detection switch would be a basic requirement; so are these "approved" RS units restricted to only cars with that feature?
Posted By: KarTuneMan
Date Posted: October 30, 2005 at 12:44 AM
Manual trans. DO NOT HAVE a neutral safty "wire" no matter what you read. If in the first 5 pages of the install manual it gives ANY referance to a nuetral saftey wire....you got the WRONG unit for a manual tranny. IT'S THAT SIMPLE............... Hey bobk..... -------------
Posted By: dualsport
Date Posted: October 30, 2005 at 12:51 AM
If that was in reply to my question, there are some manual transmission vehicles that have a neutral gear indication wire, but because they ARE relatively uncommon, I was trying to find out just what conditions these manual tranny approved units require before considering it "safe to start".
Posted By: dualsport
Date Posted: October 30, 2005 at 12:52 AM
If that was in reply to my question, there are some manual transmission vehicles that have a neutral gear indication wire, but because they ARE relatively uncommon, I was trying to find out just what conditions these manual tranny approved RS units require before considering it "safe to start".
Posted By: iskidoo
Date Posted: October 30, 2005 at 1:25 AM
dualsport the manual safe units require hooking additional wires to the parking brake and door trigger. The unit must be set up into a reservation mode which involves insuring the shifter is in nuetral and the parking brake is applied. The vehicle remains running and when you exit the vehicle it detects the door closing and assumes from then on that if you exited the vehicle with it running it was safe to do so. If the door is opened after that it will come out of reservation mode and be unable to remotely start. Certain vehicles like t-tops are not recommended but can be done safely if you add a microwave sensor that will drop it back out of reservation if someone reaches into the interior. This prevents someone from reaching in afterwards and bumping the shifter or releasing the parking brake.
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Steve G
Posted By: dualsport
Date Posted: October 30, 2005 at 11:39 AM
Thanks for the explanation- that's pretty clever; while it may not be totally foolproof, sounds like it would need a deliberate effort to thwart the safety, the way it's set up.
I assume the setup is an active process that has to be done each time he exits the car. I recall reading someone mentioning a customer thought it was a hassle when told about the setup requirement, but I didn't know just what it actually entailed. I guess it wouldn't be much of a hassle if there were just some pushbutton that can be pushed prior to exiting the car, which would activate a circuit to hold the ignition on after removing the ignition key, until the last door is closed and the car armed with the remote, setting up the RS reservation mode. Wouldn't be very user friendly otherwise, if it had to be restarted after driving just to do this process.
Posted By: vietfrost
Date Posted: October 30, 2005 at 1:36 PM
Well its a uncommon alarm made by Carvox. Its the King-Eagle model I think. Bought it off ebay https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-2-Way-LCD-Pager-Car-Alarm-and-Remote-Starter_W0QQitemZ8001837272QQcategoryZ33721QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and the car is a 1997 honda accord lx. Remote start works finely, but i haven't bypassed the clutch yet because I haven't wired the brake input and anyone could just drive off with it without the keys. Oddly I haven't got the shock sensor to activate the alarm after it has started remotely. You would think after banging on the shock sensor that thee alarm would go off and shutdown the car. I'm not an idiot, i know the dangers. My friend's car ran off after school while all the students were leaving campus. Luckily it only rear ended a 3 day brand new truck instead of anyone else. Ended up paying 3000 for the damage. It wasn't his fault, one of his friends was messing with the gears and he left the car in gear with the parking brakes down when he left. So uh back to the question. would i need to wire up any relays or could i just solder in the (-) Neutral Safety Switch Input to the Parking brake indicator? Does anyone even know where the parking brake sensor is? Its not in any of the wiring diagrams i've seen and i don't really want to mess with the instrument cluster if I don't have to. Its kind of expensive at the dealers. Another member said I use the Hood Pin wire instead of the neutral safety wire but then wouldnt the alarm go off every time the arm the car since the parking brake is up? One more thing, doeos anyone know what the Yellow wire on the alarm that you connect to the (+) Ignition Input of the Key Cylinder? You know the one that provides +12v when the ignition is on and while cranking the starter. Whats it for? Seems to work fine without it. Well thanks for the input. Peace out and bee friendly no flaming.
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