cheating of alarm installer
Printed From: the12volt.comForum Name: Car Security and Convenience
Forum Discription: Car Alarms, Keyless Entries, Remote Starters, Immobilizer Bypasses, Sensors, Door Locks, Window Modules, Heated Mirrors, Heated Seats, etc.
URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=81204
Printed Date: April 19, 2024 at 7:29 AM
Topic: cheating of alarm installer
Posted By: bsd1
Subject: cheating of alarm installer
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 2:12 PM
Around 3 months ago I had a Matrix RSX3.5 installed by Audiowerk in San Jose. The total price was $565 as follows:
- RSX 3.5
- power door locks/actuators (he said $100 for 2 doors)
- power trunk
- 508D
I was very wized because they didn't ask me where to mount the responder antenna, they mounted it near the rearview mirror, and it wasn't aligned to the center at all. I actually wanted them to mount such a thing to the rear window.
They also screwed up the power trunk, my trunk can no longer close properly (can't use too much force to close it, can't slam it or so).
I originally requested Matrix RSX 10.5 because I knew for sure I hate remote start and there is no need for it. When I picked up my car they told me they installed a higher model for me for no additional charge, I was thinking that was great or so. Then they said my car needs some kind of modules to enable remote start, so they didn't activate remote start on the RSX 3.5. I said fine then, I hate remote start anyway. But I found out 3.5 comes with one LCD remote, what I wanted two remote, one LCD, and one tiny one. I then ordered the tiny remote off ebay a week later and wasn't completely happy.
The last when I was trying to get power door lock working and I screwed up the actuators, so I unplug the blue/green door harness, but I discovered something:
- H3 was plugged in the brain but all wires were electrical taped except the gray (-) hoodpin shutdown input wire just sitting freely not connecting to anything.
- H2 harness completely missing. Important?
- H4 plugged in but the other end electrical taped like H3
- Remote Start harness, the yellow (+) ignition input was connecting to, I guess 12V ignition wire
- H1, the following all electrical taped:
1) orange ground when armed output
3) WHITE/ blue (-) activation input
4) BLACK/ white (-) 200mA domelight output
6) blue (-) trunk trigger input
7) violet (+) door trigger input
I got ripped off quite obviously. Forget it, what I need to know now is that, which wire (electrical taped off) should be connect and to where, to consider a complete installation without remote start feature?
Was he trying to cheat on the labor and materials?
- RSX 3.5
- power door locks/actuators (he said $100 for 2 doors)
- power trunk
- 508D
I was very wized because they didn't ask me where to mount the responder antenna, they mounted it near the rearview mirror, and it wasn't aligned to the center at all. I actually wanted them to mount such a thing to the rear window.
They also screwed up the power trunk, my trunk can no longer close properly (can't use too much force to close it, can't slam it or so).
I originally requested Matrix RSX 10.5 because I knew for sure I hate remote start and there is no need for it. When I picked up my car they told me they installed a higher model for me for no additional charge, I was thinking that was great or so. Then they said my car needs some kind of modules to enable remote start, so they didn't activate remote start on the RSX 3.5. I said fine then, I hate remote start anyway. But I found out 3.5 comes with one LCD remote, what I wanted two remote, one LCD, and one tiny one. I then ordered the tiny remote off ebay a week later and wasn't completely happy.
The last when I was trying to get power door lock working and I screwed up the actuators, so I unplug the blue/green door harness, but I discovered something:
- H3 was plugged in the brain but all wires were electrical taped except the gray (-) hoodpin shutdown input wire just sitting freely not connecting to anything.
- H2 harness completely missing. Important?
- H4 plugged in but the other end electrical taped like H3
- Remote Start harness, the yellow (+) ignition input was connecting to, I guess 12V ignition wire
- H1, the following all electrical taped:
1) orange ground when armed output
3) WHITE/ blue (-) activation input
4) BLACK/ white (-) 200mA domelight output
6) blue (-) trunk trigger input
7) violet (+) door trigger input
I got ripped off quite obviously. Forget it, what I need to know now is that, which wire (electrical taped off) should be connect and to where, to consider a complete installation without remote start feature?
Was he trying to cheat on the labor and materials?
Replies:
Posted By: bbtaco
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 2:29 PM
Posted By: Hornshockey
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 3:00 PM
H3 harness is all remote start related inputs, not necessary in your case. I'd imagine they left the hoodpin input out because it doubles as a shutdown for the remote start and as a trigger input for the alarm.
H2 harness is also unnecessary, unless using the factory alarm, or using all of your aux outputs.
The ignition input on the remote start harness is the input for the whole system to let it know when the ignition is on, for things like ign controlled locks
The other wires in the H1 harness are pretty standard to be left taped up and unused. Unless, of course, you requested domelight supervison, or trunk protection.
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Life moves pretty fast; if you don't stop and look around once in a while; you could miss it.
Posted By: Chris Luongo
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 3:27 PM
Sounds like they made a few mistakes, but hopefully they stand behind their work, right? Have you contacted the shop to inform them of the problems? I don't blame you for being unhappy, but at least give the shop a chance to make things right.
None of us installers are perfect, and I screw stuff up too. But I always do my best to take care of people, as long as they tell me.............it bugs me when I find out, a year later, that something doesn't work but the customer never told me about it, so I could fix it.
Anyway:
--When they installed a different unit, they should have included the extra remote as was planned. Why did you buy one on eBay? Just insist that they give you what was agreed to.
--It is standard procedure for the antenna to be mounted on the windshield, and the cable is probably not long enough to reach the back window, unless maybe it is a little car.
On some cars, the rearview mirror doesn't allow the antenna to be in the exact center. Also, if your windshield has those little black dots to keep out the sun, they are metaallic and can affect range......so the antenna should be mounted away from those.
In any event, though, if the antenna is crooked or otherwise sloppy looking, that is a shame, and it bugs me too.
Have them fix it.
--If the power doorlocks and power trunk don't work correctly, the shop should correct the problems.
Put back that plug that you undid.......if they find out that you were messing around under there, they're not going to want to touch it without charging you, and rightly so.
$100 is a very low price for two actuators....was that including the parts and the labor? I would have charged quite a bit more.
--The wiring sounds like it's all right; rarely does every single feature of the alarm get hooked up, particularly when the remote starter isn't connected.
Instead of examining the wiring, it is far easier to just check that the appropriate features work:
A. Arm the alarm, and try to start the car; does it start? It shouldn't. If the starter-kill feature doesn't work, have the shop correct it.
B. Does opening the hood and/or trunk set the alarm off?
Hood trigger is generally considered an optional, extra-cost feature for an alarm...........trunk trigger, I suppose the debate could go either way.........it also depends on whether the car has its own factory trunk pinswitch, or if a new one has to be installed.
If the trunk trigger is just a matter of hooking up a wire, they should probably consider connecting it for free to make you happy.
Mounting pinswitches would almost certainly cost extra. It is simple in theory, but ends up being a time-consuming process.
None of us installers are perfect, and I screw stuff up too. But I always do my best to take care of people, as long as they tell me.............it bugs me when I find out, a year later, that something doesn't work but the customer never told me about it, so I could fix it.
Anyway:
--When they installed a different unit, they should have included the extra remote as was planned. Why did you buy one on eBay? Just insist that they give you what was agreed to.
--It is standard procedure for the antenna to be mounted on the windshield, and the cable is probably not long enough to reach the back window, unless maybe it is a little car.
On some cars, the rearview mirror doesn't allow the antenna to be in the exact center. Also, if your windshield has those little black dots to keep out the sun, they are metaallic and can affect range......so the antenna should be mounted away from those.
In any event, though, if the antenna is crooked or otherwise sloppy looking, that is a shame, and it bugs me too.
Have them fix it.
--If the power doorlocks and power trunk don't work correctly, the shop should correct the problems.
Put back that plug that you undid.......if they find out that you were messing around under there, they're not going to want to touch it without charging you, and rightly so.
$100 is a very low price for two actuators....was that including the parts and the labor? I would have charged quite a bit more.
--The wiring sounds like it's all right; rarely does every single feature of the alarm get hooked up, particularly when the remote starter isn't connected.
Instead of examining the wiring, it is far easier to just check that the appropriate features work:
A. Arm the alarm, and try to start the car; does it start? It shouldn't. If the starter-kill feature doesn't work, have the shop correct it.
B. Does opening the hood and/or trunk set the alarm off?
Hood trigger is generally considered an optional, extra-cost feature for an alarm...........trunk trigger, I suppose the debate could go either way.........it also depends on whether the car has its own factory trunk pinswitch, or if a new one has to be installed.
If the trunk trigger is just a matter of hooking up a wire, they should probably consider connecting it for free to make you happy.
Mounting pinswitches would almost certainly cost extra. It is simple in theory, but ends up being a time-consuming process.
Posted By: captainzab
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 3:35 PM
$565 is bull because i really doubt it was an authorized seller of dei and dont provide warranty. ($2500 protected warranty thingy)
They guy was suppose to hook up all trigger. Door (obvious), hood (must if they ground the neautral safety switch), and trunk (not needed if your driving a truck, but then why get the LCD over LED)
I originally requested Matrix RSX 10.5 because I knew for sure I hate remote start and there is no need for it. When I picked up my car they told me they installed a higher model for me for no additional charge
Thats bull, the RSX 3.5 is not better, i would get the 10.5 due to all the function and it straight up cost more than the 3.5. (He clearly wasnt an authorized dealer, like Best Buy or Circuit City. He has someone that can get hook up on limited items.)
Try contacting DEI and say that the store is fraudulent in claiming it is an authorized dealer. (only those people can be charge $400+ for install and everything)
They guy was suppose to hook up all trigger. Door (obvious), hood (must if they ground the neautral safety switch), and trunk (not needed if your driving a truck, but then why get the LCD over LED)
I originally requested Matrix RSX 10.5 because I knew for sure I hate remote start and there is no need for it. When I picked up my car they told me they installed a higher model for me for no additional charge
Thats bull, the RSX 3.5 is not better, i would get the 10.5 due to all the function and it straight up cost more than the 3.5. (He clearly wasnt an authorized dealer, like Best Buy or Circuit City. He has someone that can get hook up on limited items.)
Try contacting DEI and say that the store is fraudulent in claiming it is an authorized dealer. (only those people can be charge $400+ for install and everything)
Posted By: bsd1
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 4:39 PM
nouseforaname wrote:
first off, what kind of vehicle is this on? did they install a trunk acuator? or did it already have power truck pop? usually the wiring from the antenna won't reach all the way to the rear window in most cars. and why did the doors not lock/unlock? you definately got ripped.
My vehicle: 95 240sx base model (without factory power door lock)
I purchased from them the optional 552T to enable trunk pop via the AUX button for around $80 installed.
I wanted to get those auto dimming+compass+temperature+map light rearview mirror, but the installed never asked me for the location to mount the antenna, now the responder antenna is in the way, I dunno what kind of double side tape or glue on the back, and how to remove it.
Regarding to the door not lock/unlock, I screwed that up last night when trying to add a switch.
nouseforaname wrote:
H2 harness is also unnecessary, unless using the factory alarm, or using all of your aux outputs.
My car doesn't have factory alarm. What does the aux output do? Is it like pushing 2 or 3 buttons simultanlously to pop the hood, honk the horn or the like?
nouseforaname wrote:You know, I'd assume the customers know nothing about car alarm. Of course, any such feature comes with it, customers most likely would want that to be added/enabled. I paid them $80 for 552T, they have gotta assume I want trunk protection, or do something related to the trunk.
Unless, of course, you requested domelight supervison, or trunk protection.
Chris Luongo wrote:I was just an ordinary customer who couldn't remember which model comes with which features. Before I left my car there, I did looked up and found that 10.5x suit me the best. I didn't remember the feature of 3.5x other than remote start, so I didn't know 3.5x comes with just one 2-way responder remote. In fact, 10.5x comes with one 2-way responder remote and one 4-button remote.
When they installed a different unit, they should have included the extra remote as was planned. Why did you buy one on eBay?
I didn't want to spend extra on eBay but I planned on using the 4-button remote 90% of the time.
Chris Luongo wrote:Is there a chart you can look it up for 95 240sx? Or is the antenna cable extendable?
the cable is probably not long enough to reach the back window
Chris Luongo wrote:But that wasn't the case for my car, there are plenty of space, but somehow they just didn't mount it center. Around 3 inches to the left is way too obvious and it looked too sloppy. They said once its mounted, can't remove it without risking to break it.
On some cars, the rearview mirror doesn't allow the antenna to be in the exact center
Chris Luongo wrote:Regarding to the trunk, I took my car back to the shop, they said that's how trunk works, what can I argue? I took it back because my trunk popped while driving. Now, everytime I close the trunk, I have to use my hand try to pop it and make sure it's locked, paid $80 for more by-hand works.
If the power doorlocks and power trunk don't work correctly, the shop should correct the problems
They charged $100 for the audiovox and another nonbrand actuators installed.
So does my car need to get pinswitch in order to enable trunk trigger? How about the hood. Which DEI model are they? Is it difficult to DIY?
captainzab wrote:This store has been in business for over 15 years, I guess they are authorized seller. Here's the link: https://www.audiowerk.com/
$565 is bull because i really doubt it was an authorized seller of dei and dont provide warranty
So after reading my reply, please comment using your professional alarm installer skills and judgement, tell me which wire or feature that's not currently hooked up should have the store or DIY if simple, to get it right, as if you were installing this alarm to your very own car.
BTW, I'll be adding 507M, piezo siren 513T and 520T, if that matters your decision.
One more thing, should BROWN horn(-) 200mA output of H4 be hooked up as standard? I plan to DIY a train horn into my car, should be triggered via relay with ground pulse. Can this brown wire be connected to blast the train horn when necessary?
Posted By: captainzab
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 8:54 PM
My car doesn't have factory alarm. What does the aux output do? Is it like pushing 2 or 3 buttons simultanlously to pop the hood, honk the horn or the like?
Yea, thats what those aux channel is for. You can also do windows up/down, or use a relay to turn on your headlight for 30sec.
Is there a chart you can look it up for 95 240sx? Or is the antenna cable extendable?
Mounted in the back window instead of the front?
But that wasn't the case for my car, there are plenty of space, but somehow they just didn't mount it center. Around 3 inches to the left is way too obvious and it looked too sloppy. They said once its mounted, can't remove it without risking to break it.
Thats a ly about breakig it. Its just double sided tape. use a knife and while pulling the antenna cut the tape. Then clean off the rest of the tape and use some quality 3m tape to remount antenna.
Regarding to the trunk, I took my car back to the shop, they said that's how trunk works, what can I argue? I took it back because my trunk popped while driving. Now, everytime I close the trunk, I have to use my hand try to pop it and make sure it's locked, paid $80 for more by-hand works.
They clearly messed up the wiring for the trunk pop. Check the relay so that it looks like
85- channel 2 (the RED / whire wire from alarm)
86 & 87- 12v
30- output to the trunk release thingy
They charged $100 for the audiovox and another nonbrand actuators installed.
Crazy stuff.
So does my car need to get pinswitch in order to enable trunk trigger? How about the hood. Which DEI model are they? Is it difficult to DIY?
So does my car need to get pinswitch in order to enable trunk trigger? How about the hood. Which DEI model are they? Is it difficult to DIY?
The hood wire is a thin grey wire, your alarm should have included a hood pin switch.
This store has been in business for over 15 years, I guess they are authorized seller. Here's the link: https://www.audiowerk.com/
Still call DEI and complain about them being unauthorized (even if they are, its okay).
BTW, I'll be adding 507M, piezo siren 513T and 520T, if that matters your decision.
Do that yourself. Order your parts somewhere cheap. People here cna help you wire it up.
One more thing, should BROWN horn(-) 200mA output of H4 be hooked up as standard? I plan to DIY a train horn into my car, should be triggered via relay with ground pulse. Can this brown wire be connected to blast the train horn when necessary?
You can do that. read your install guide to find more info about it.
Yea, thats what those aux channel is for. You can also do windows up/down, or use a relay to turn on your headlight for 30sec.
Is there a chart you can look it up for 95 240sx? Or is the antenna cable extendable?
Mounted in the back window instead of the front?
But that wasn't the case for my car, there are plenty of space, but somehow they just didn't mount it center. Around 3 inches to the left is way too obvious and it looked too sloppy. They said once its mounted, can't remove it without risking to break it.
Thats a ly about breakig it. Its just double sided tape. use a knife and while pulling the antenna cut the tape. Then clean off the rest of the tape and use some quality 3m tape to remount antenna.
Regarding to the trunk, I took my car back to the shop, they said that's how trunk works, what can I argue? I took it back because my trunk popped while driving. Now, everytime I close the trunk, I have to use my hand try to pop it and make sure it's locked, paid $80 for more by-hand works.
They clearly messed up the wiring for the trunk pop. Check the relay so that it looks like
85- channel 2 (the RED / whire wire from alarm)
86 & 87- 12v
30- output to the trunk release thingy
They charged $100 for the audiovox and another nonbrand actuators installed.
Crazy stuff.
So does my car need to get pinswitch in order to enable trunk trigger? How about the hood. Which DEI model are they? Is it difficult to DIY?
So does my car need to get pinswitch in order to enable trunk trigger? How about the hood. Which DEI model are they? Is it difficult to DIY?
The hood wire is a thin grey wire, your alarm should have included a hood pin switch.
This store has been in business for over 15 years, I guess they are authorized seller. Here's the link: https://www.audiowerk.com/
Still call DEI and complain about them being unauthorized (even if they are, its okay).
BTW, I'll be adding 507M, piezo siren 513T and 520T, if that matters your decision.
Do that yourself. Order your parts somewhere cheap. People here cna help you wire it up.
One more thing, should BROWN horn(-) 200mA output of H4 be hooked up as standard? I plan to DIY a train horn into my car, should be triggered via relay with ground pulse. Can this brown wire be connected to blast the train horn when necessary?
You can do that. read your install guide to find more info about it.
Posted By: Ravendarat
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 9:21 PM
There is no chart for antenna length but if I had to guess, and they installed the brain properly its very unlikely it would reach. Properly installed in the center on the front is probally the best you can hope for. The Aux outputs are generally for things like window roll up and down and things of that nature. All these are definatly extra features you pay for. Since its a combo unit there would have been a hood pin in the box and should have been installed as part of the standard install IMO. Starter kill is a per shop basis. Some place install it for free with the unit others charge. Same with trunk pin, some include it some dont. You cant assume they would know you want it done just becuase you are getting trunk release done, but it should have been presented to you.
As for adding the train horn, the brown wire is a positive trigger wire for the siren so you would need to set up your relay for positive trigger not negative.
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double-secret reverse-osmosis speaker-cone-induced high-level interference distortion, Its a killer
Posted By: bsd1
Date Posted: August 04, 2006 at 11:50 PM
Oh man, I definitely need to get my H2 harness back first, then I will inform DEI regarding audiowerk being unprofessional and ripping off customers.
Yes, I'd like to relocate the antenna to the top or bottom in the center position of the rear window. I don't care if i lose up to 20% of reception, but placing the antenna in the front really gets in the way. Even placing sun shade on the windshield I had to be really careful not to break the antenna.
About the relay for trunk pop, the wiring is fine. They just messed up the rod or spring or something mechanical, not electrical related. Since they insisted that's how power trunk works, I have to live with it. There's no way to spend another $50 or so to have another shop or person to fix it.
Ravendarat, the brain wasn't even installed properly. They use cable tie (fine with me) but it's very loose, the brain sits on top of the kick panel. All it takes for the brain to drop out is to remove the fuse cover. It only takes around 30 seconds for someone clueless like me to cut off all the harness from the brain.
The 3 relays (trunk,unlock,lock) did screwed in to somewhere securely.
The brown wire I was referring to one of the two wires from H4 harness, not H1.
Since the brain is so easily accessible, I plan to relocate it to one of the following locations:
1) the front of headlining
2) passenger airbag compartment
My car doesn't have factory sunroof, so the front of the headling, without the sunroof switches and bracket, has plenty of space to fit the brain plus 3 relays. What I worry is if this location gets too high temperature in hot summer, and that could damage the brain. I just dunno if the roof can absorb most of the heat or not.
Since I installed aftermarket steering wheel, that airbag is useless and gone. So long as one of the air bags is missing, the entire SRS just won't function any longer. So I took out the whole system, the passenger airbag, the sensor and the airbag harness. That said, there is alot of room there to mount 513T and 520T as well as two amps. If at all possible, I prefer to mount the brain on headling and keep it away from amps.
Yes, I'd like to relocate the antenna to the top or bottom in the center position of the rear window. I don't care if i lose up to 20% of reception, but placing the antenna in the front really gets in the way. Even placing sun shade on the windshield I had to be really careful not to break the antenna.
About the relay for trunk pop, the wiring is fine. They just messed up the rod or spring or something mechanical, not electrical related. Since they insisted that's how power trunk works, I have to live with it. There's no way to spend another $50 or so to have another shop or person to fix it.
Ravendarat, the brain wasn't even installed properly. They use cable tie (fine with me) but it's very loose, the brain sits on top of the kick panel. All it takes for the brain to drop out is to remove the fuse cover. It only takes around 30 seconds for someone clueless like me to cut off all the harness from the brain.
The 3 relays (trunk,unlock,lock) did screwed in to somewhere securely.
The brown wire I was referring to one of the two wires from H4 harness, not H1.
Since the brain is so easily accessible, I plan to relocate it to one of the following locations:
1) the front of headlining
2) passenger airbag compartment
My car doesn't have factory sunroof, so the front of the headling, without the sunroof switches and bracket, has plenty of space to fit the brain plus 3 relays. What I worry is if this location gets too high temperature in hot summer, and that could damage the brain. I just dunno if the roof can absorb most of the heat or not.
Since I installed aftermarket steering wheel, that airbag is useless and gone. So long as one of the air bags is missing, the entire SRS just won't function any longer. So I took out the whole system, the passenger airbag, the sensor and the airbag harness. That said, there is alot of room there to mount 513T and 520T as well as two amps. If at all possible, I prefer to mount the brain on headling and keep it away from amps.
Posted By: bazzgazm
Date Posted: August 05, 2006 at 8:42 AM
Honestly. you sound like you're complaining about stuff you don't understand.
alot of wires in alarms are not used on every install, Understand what they do before you complain about it.
lastly. Alarms do not prevent theft in any way shape or form. They do DETER people from stealing hence the term theft deterent device... it'll keep most people honest.
relocating your brain to your headliner sounds like some real trouble just waiting to happen. I agree that wires should be fairly concealed and the brain out of reach for the average person but it sounds like you expected custom work on a budget price which unfortunately doesn't happen.
i had a friend of mine who i really liked one time.. where i did some crazy locations and oddball setups but as far as basic labor prices go it usually states something like "brain out of sight, zip tied and wires loomed/taped to look like factory harnesses"
Posted By: captainzab
Date Posted: August 05, 2006 at 10:35 AM
He was cheated, because when he dropped it off he asked for the Clifford 10.5x but they went ahead and installed the 3.5 claiming it is better (they didnt even hook up remote start part)
And they didnt even hook up his trunk pop correctly. And for them to say that that is how it works instead of fixing it is bull.
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Note: You Always Dont Get What You Pay For.
And they didnt even hook up his trunk pop correctly. And for them to say that that is how it works instead of fixing it is bull.
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Note: You Always Dont Get What You Pay For.
Posted By: xtremej
Date Posted: August 05, 2006 at 10:53 AM
If you wanted a 10.5 than you should not accept a 3.5 period. As far as add on features all shops vary on what they include, but if they are professionals they would discuss this with the customer and find out what features the customer would like to have installed. As far as the workmanship that is different from shop to shop, some installers are by the theory that if it works who cares how it looks. Which is true but, I don't subscribe to this theory as I feel it is a direct representation of the business and the installers work ethic. As far a reporting them to dei, good luck its a maze just to talk to tech support. And to be quite honest I don't think they'll do much. There is a shop about 45 mile from me that turns out poor quality work on a regular basis and they continue to carry viper. As far as the price goes it really doesn't matter what was paid if the shop agredd to install a 10.5, with trunk relese, power locks/keyless and so on. If they under bid to bad, if they over bid it to bad for you. I don't like when any shop dictates the quality on a install for what price was paid. Last but not least I would go this shop and request to speak with manager or owner and stay level head to work out a resolution. I am sure that something can be worked out maybe a partial refund or they agree to repair the problems stated. Sorry about bouncing around topic a little trying to type fast and eat:)
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Posted By: Chris Luongo
Date Posted: August 05, 2006 at 11:40 AM
There is a difference between paying too much, and being ripped off.
Example: $8 for a beer at a fancy bar is overpriced, but it's not a ripoff if you receive your beer, since you did agree to the price.
And if the bartender took your money and got busy and forgot to serve you, hopefully you would bring it to his attention before calling him a thief.
Okay, here it is about your car:
---If you and the shop agreed to a particular product, and they gave you something different, that isn't cool...........they should give you whatever it takes to make things equal, such as the extra remote.
---A typical, basic install generally has the alarm brain and its wiring neatly and carefully affixed to the car, not falling down on your feet, etcetera.
Buring all the components and making them near-impossible for a thief to find, is very time-consuming and nearly always costs extra.
If the shop were smart, they would have offered to hide everything for an additional charge, and made more money.
---I doubt it really matters if they're an authorized dealer or not. And there are no rules or laws to prevent them from charging as much as they want.......just like the $8 beer.
---The idea of your trunk lid not operating smoothly after having the solenoid installed is completely bull. Tell them they either make it right, or they remove it and refund your money.
Again, I make mistakes at work too, and putting motors into doors and trunks is often tricky and difficult......but if they're not trying to make you happy, that isn't cool.
---About the antenna. I don't think there's any kind of chart for where to mount it. And again, as others have said, it would also depend on where the brain is mounted.
Regardless, it was sloppy of them to not mount it centered and neatly. I haven't seen your windshield, but I fully believe you that they just slapped it up there wherever.
Again, they did something sloppy, and they should make it right. Yeah, I suppose they could damage the antenna if they don't remove it carefully......but that's THEIR problem. They're the ones who decided not to mount it neatly.
Besides, if something does happen to the antenna, they can probably just swap it out as defective anyway.
---Trunkpins, hoodpins, dome supervision, and so forth: Just because the alarm has many features, they still require labor to install..........it's up to you and the shop to agree on what features will be connected, and that's naturally going to affect the price.
OVERALL OPINION:
---They did a few things sloppily and lazily. That's forgiveable, except when you went there to get it corrected, they told you to take a hike.
That's not right, and you should insist that they fix it. If you are only talking to your installer, go around him and speak with the manager or owner.
If the manager tells you to take a hike, see if your credit-card company can help you.
---All this stuff about hoodpins and whatnot......yeah, sure, maybe some of it should cost extra.
But a good salesperson should know the difference between a soccer mom who basically just cares about keyless entry and an insurance discount for her minivan............and a guy with an older, cool, sporty car looking for serious protection.
They should have realized the type of customer you are, and explained the entire install, feature by feature, and told you what you would or wouldn't be getting. It's a shame they didn't.
If I were the shop manager, at this point, I would consider giving you one or two extra features for free to make you happy.
So again, if you don't mind me saying my opinion, you are asking for a LOT of stuff for a regular install.........but at the same time, they did a few things wrong, and you did spend a lot of money and buy extras.........the shop really should try to answer at least some of your concerns.......if they won't, it isn't good.
Example: $8 for a beer at a fancy bar is overpriced, but it's not a ripoff if you receive your beer, since you did agree to the price.
And if the bartender took your money and got busy and forgot to serve you, hopefully you would bring it to his attention before calling him a thief.
Okay, here it is about your car:
---If you and the shop agreed to a particular product, and they gave you something different, that isn't cool...........they should give you whatever it takes to make things equal, such as the extra remote.
---A typical, basic install generally has the alarm brain and its wiring neatly and carefully affixed to the car, not falling down on your feet, etcetera.
Buring all the components and making them near-impossible for a thief to find, is very time-consuming and nearly always costs extra.
If the shop were smart, they would have offered to hide everything for an additional charge, and made more money.
---I doubt it really matters if they're an authorized dealer or not. And there are no rules or laws to prevent them from charging as much as they want.......just like the $8 beer.
---The idea of your trunk lid not operating smoothly after having the solenoid installed is completely bull. Tell them they either make it right, or they remove it and refund your money.
Again, I make mistakes at work too, and putting motors into doors and trunks is often tricky and difficult......but if they're not trying to make you happy, that isn't cool.
---About the antenna. I don't think there's any kind of chart for where to mount it. And again, as others have said, it would also depend on where the brain is mounted.
Regardless, it was sloppy of them to not mount it centered and neatly. I haven't seen your windshield, but I fully believe you that they just slapped it up there wherever.
Again, they did something sloppy, and they should make it right. Yeah, I suppose they could damage the antenna if they don't remove it carefully......but that's THEIR problem. They're the ones who decided not to mount it neatly.
Besides, if something does happen to the antenna, they can probably just swap it out as defective anyway.
---Trunkpins, hoodpins, dome supervision, and so forth: Just because the alarm has many features, they still require labor to install..........it's up to you and the shop to agree on what features will be connected, and that's naturally going to affect the price.
OVERALL OPINION:
---They did a few things sloppily and lazily. That's forgiveable, except when you went there to get it corrected, they told you to take a hike.
That's not right, and you should insist that they fix it. If you are only talking to your installer, go around him and speak with the manager or owner.
If the manager tells you to take a hike, see if your credit-card company can help you.
---All this stuff about hoodpins and whatnot......yeah, sure, maybe some of it should cost extra.
But a good salesperson should know the difference between a soccer mom who basically just cares about keyless entry and an insurance discount for her minivan............and a guy with an older, cool, sporty car looking for serious protection.
They should have realized the type of customer you are, and explained the entire install, feature by feature, and told you what you would or wouldn't be getting. It's a shame they didn't.
If I were the shop manager, at this point, I would consider giving you one or two extra features for free to make you happy.
So again, if you don't mind me saying my opinion, you are asking for a LOT of stuff for a regular install.........but at the same time, they did a few things wrong, and you did spend a lot of money and buy extras.........the shop really should try to answer at least some of your concerns.......if they won't, it isn't good.
Posted By: kgerry
Date Posted: August 05, 2006 at 11:54 AM
first - captainzab - please do not be rude and hijack someone else's thread... this person posted asking for options and help for HIS problem, not YOURS!!
second - bsd1 - Chris really summed it up for you... there are some definitive differences between the 10.5 and the 3.5 and if you are unhappy with them then ask them to order the 10.5 and replace it for the model you thought you were getting when you dropped your car off.... as Chris mentioned it is rather uncool of a dealer to bait and switch you only because they found they had no stock and didnt want to risk losing a sale.... aside from that it is a little uncool of you to be ripping through their wiring trying to psycho-analyze whether they did a good wiring job or not... as already mentioned to you, many features on many models are unused.. and extras are - well - EXTRA....
i wouldnt say you were cheated, but i would say you have some legitimate concerns that should be addressed by this dealer in their hopes of keeping you as a customer... you have a valid point about the 10.5 coming with a companion remote, and the 3.5 not... tell them to give you a 3.5 1-way companion remote or swap the unit for the unit you thought you were paying for... on the flip side, the 3.5 does have superior range to the 10.5 so that is actually a little bit of a bonus for you.... also, if you feel that the brain could have been tied up better then bring that up, but keep in mind no normal installer would have put the brain up in your headliner without being specifically asked to and paid extra to....(that would actually be a bit of a wiring nightmare)
i would say just go in calmly, ask for the manager and go over your concerns.. and remember - you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!! explain to them that you really wanted the 10.5 for these reasons that the 3.5 doesnt provide and since they took it upon themselves to swap models on you ask them to reinstall what you thought you were getting.... it's all about compromise and remaining calm.... i am a technician/installer/shop owner myself and i can tell you that it is easy to help someone who is calm, but if you came in here calling me incompetant or a crook i would want to get you out of the store as fast as possible too.....
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Kevin Gerry
Certified Electronics Technician
MECP First Class Installer
Owner/Installer
Classic Car Audio
since 1979
Posted By: KarTuneMan
Date Posted: August 05, 2006 at 1:07 PM
Maybe consider printing out the last 2 pages off this site to take as referance....tell the"boss" you want to get back on the 12volt and tell THOUSANDS of readers, and members that you were taken care of PROFESSIONALLY, and courteously. You want to spread "the good news" about their shop.
Posted By: Fastlearner
Date Posted: August 05, 2006 at 4:02 PM
thank god you didn't come to my shop cause the minute you started to complain about the stuff your complaining about I would have gone in your car taken out everything and said have a nice day. It doesn't sound like you got ripped off. Sure they did a little things wrong, but then again you did some stuff too like disconnecting something on the alarm. How do you know that you didn't cause something else to go wrong. I always inform my customers not to touch anything under any circumstance and to conctact me first regarding any problems they have with my car. I had one customer come in saying that the remote start we installed in his car three years ago burnt out his starter. So all this your complaing your doing is for nothing. Just take it back there but since you messed it up they may not do anything.
Posted By: bsd1
Date Posted: August 06, 2006 at 7:30 AM
bazzgazm wrote:Honestly if you put yourself in my perspective, you can't deny the fact that I was totally unhappy and completely wized off.
Honestly. you sound like you're complaining about stuff you don't understand.
1) the 1-way remote I paid off ebay for afterward
2) the antenna not being centered
3) the power trunk is worse off then before
bazzgazm wrote:Not used when they are lazy. Domelight, I don't care. But trunk trigger and horn output and starer kill, a must! The H2 harness I really see it optional, but they have gotta provide me with that in case I need to enable something in the future. In fact, I really need channel 4 and 5 outputs from H2 very soon.
alot of wires in alarms are not used on every install. Understand what they do before you complain about it
bazzgazm wrote:Please don't read my previous message partially. I never said I want anyone else to do those relocation, I said DIY.
it sounds like you expected custom work on a budget price
captainzab wrote:I didn't really care 3.5 or 10.5, I care the extra 1-way remote, period. In fact, I thought 3.5 was better because of the remote start feature. Never thought that a higher model has one fewer remote.
he asked for the Clifford 10.5x but they went ahead and installed the 3.5 claiming it is better
captainzab wrote:I already give up on them. They don't seem to have the talent to fix it anyhow. Someday when I fully understand the trunk release mechanism I will try to fix it myself.
And for them to say that that is how it works instead of fixing it is bull
xtremej wrote:I didn't really accept it but the manager insisted 3.5 a higher model and cost $100 more and all misrepresentation he told me. Beside, the installation was already completed by that time. Tell them to remove everything and keep my $200 deposit?
If you wanted a 10.5 than you should not accept a 3.5 period
xtremej wrote:I fully buy this. I am not trying to blame them but myself for choosing the wrong shop.
As far as the workmanship that is different from shop to shop
xtremej wrote:I've been talking to that person, the owner, calmly so far because I was afraid they charge extra for this and that.
Last but not least I would go this shop and request to speak with manager or owner and stay level head to work out a resolution
xtremej wrote:After the 2nd time I took my car back there for the trunk problem, I gave up on them. I didn't think they are capable to put my trunk back to the previous working state anyway.
maybe a partial refund or they agree to repair the problems stated
Chris Luongo wrote:Neatly or not, I really don't care. I didn't expect everyone's bedroom is as clean as mine. If mine gets messy and have someone to clean it, that isn't free. So I don't mind to clean up their left over mess for my own comfort.
basic install generally has the alarm brain and its wiring neatly and carefully affixed to the car, not falling down on your feet, etc
Chris Luongo wrote:I should take a pic of that tomorrow and let everyone sees it.
I haven't seen your windshield, but I fully believe you that they just slapped it up there wherever
Chris Luongo wrote:You say, spending $565 on car alarm is not a lot of money and 3.5X is average or above average alarm? They didn't discuss those with me at all. Just because I didn't remind them, therefore they have the excuse to be lazy? If I knew all the features and which does what, I'd install it myself.
it's up to you and the shop to agree on what features will be connected, and that's naturally going to affect the price..you are asking for a LOT of stuff for a regular install
Asking for a lot? Just trunk trigger and horn output and starer kill. Like I said, brain and antenna relocation, I don't trust them anymore even they offer to do it for free. The relocation takes time, and quite costly for labor, I knew that. With patient and all that, DIY is the best.
kgerry wrote:I didn't mean to analyze their wiring job. While DIY adding a door lock switch, I removed the fuse cover and brain just dropped off right in front of my face. Without knowing how they wired it up, how can I DIY to add/enable features?
it is a little uncool of you to be ripping through their wiring trying to psycho-analyze whether they did a good wiring job or not
kgerry wrote:If it was a cheap alarm, I'd not expect them to enable any extra features, if there are on cheap alarms. But since everyone's taste may vary, I have no complain on that and I will just DIY to add/enable features.
many features on many models are unused.. and extras are - well - EXTRA
kgerry wrote:I've been calm to them at least till now. But too late is too late, they held my deposit, on the very first day after the install, it was already too late.
it's all about compromise and remaining calm
Some of you really misunderstand my points.
1) I got ripped off, I admitted it, so face it and live with it. I no longer care since my 2nd trip there for trunk problem.
2) Work ethic standard or guideline on car alarm install, is there really such a thing? I don't care. I chose the wrong shop, I blame myself.
Please note, I am not referring to the wires not being wired, but the trunk problem and sloppy antenna mounting. They are liable on troubles they caused.
3) Don't even think that I'm trying to tell the whole world that alarm installers are all evil then you are trying to defend the people from the same industry.
4) What I've decided to do: I don't want that shop to TOUCH my car anymore, I don't trust their sloppy works any longer. I want to DIY (or get someone else if I can't handle) to enable additional features and do the brain+antenna relocation. I will go to that shop tomorrow and get my H2 harness back which they stole from me. Yeah right H2 harness not needed/used, so they keep it?
5) Please read the very last paragraph on my very first post of this thread. You see, no complaining in the very place. I just wanted to complete the install myself plus some additional features, and asking for everyone's opinion which feature would you consider a must, a standard, or optional. Keep saying some are extras without specifying explicitly which feature doesn't help at all.
Posted By: JWorm
Date Posted: August 06, 2006 at 11:38 AM
The reason shops keep harnesses that aren't used is in case someone came back in the future and wanted to add something that wasn't originally done. Most places have a bin with a bunch of extra harnesses.
I guarantee 99% of customers would come back without the harness if they were coming back to add some feature. They would have either thrown it away, or it is somewhere at there house. If the shop had given away all the harnesses, they would then have to make up something or take one out of a new unit.
Sounds like you got a hack install by a hack shop. You've realized that, and I'm sure you won't make the same mistake in the future.
Mounting the alarm brain in the headliner is not realistic. Either is mounting the antenna in the rear window. The wire is not long enough, and it should not be extended.
I would have hooked up the trunk pin wire. They already had to run wires back to the trunk to add the trunk release solenoid. Running one more wire would have taken minumal time. If you are going to add this, the wire is red. The red wire is located in a harness at the left trunk hinge.
The car may have a factory hood pin wire. It would be yellow/black at the factory anti-theft module (if equiped). The anti-theft module is located just above the hood release cable in the drivers kick panel.
The 3.5x does not come with a second remote to keep the cost down. The units are already expensive enough with only 1 remote. The 10.5 comes with less expensive remotes, so DEI decided to include 2 remotes.
I guarantee 99% of customers would come back without the harness if they were coming back to add some feature. They would have either thrown it away, or it is somewhere at there house. If the shop had given away all the harnesses, they would then have to make up something or take one out of a new unit.
Sounds like you got a hack install by a hack shop. You've realized that, and I'm sure you won't make the same mistake in the future.
Mounting the alarm brain in the headliner is not realistic. Either is mounting the antenna in the rear window. The wire is not long enough, and it should not be extended.
I would have hooked up the trunk pin wire. They already had to run wires back to the trunk to add the trunk release solenoid. Running one more wire would have taken minumal time. If you are going to add this, the wire is red. The red wire is located in a harness at the left trunk hinge.
The car may have a factory hood pin wire. It would be yellow/black at the factory anti-theft module (if equiped). The anti-theft module is located just above the hood release cable in the drivers kick panel.
The 3.5x does not come with a second remote to keep the cost down. The units are already expensive enough with only 1 remote. The 10.5 comes with less expensive remotes, so DEI decided to include 2 remotes.
Posted By: bsd1
Date Posted: August 07, 2006 at 1:21 AM
JWorm] wrote:At the shop standpoint, yup, that's how you keep or tie up with a customer, make them to have next to no choice but to come back for additional addons, of course with a charge.
he reason shops keep harnesses that aren't used is in case someone came back in the future and wanted to add something that wasn't originally done.
At my standpoint, they silently took something away from my property without my consent/knowledge. Even H2 wasn't needed/used at the time of the install, I bet you, if they ask me or any other customers, we'd say we want to have procession of our own stuffs. Hopefully you folks agree with me on this and should not steal customers' stuffs.
JWorm] wrote:
ounting the alarm brain in the headliner is not realistic. Either is mounting the antenna in the rear window. The wire is not long enough, and it should not be extended.
If the brain is up inside the headliner, the antenna should then be long enough to reach the rear window. I know it's unrealistic, that's why relocation like this must be DIY.
JWorm] wrote:Today I found two (black and red) wires located at that location. So that red one should be the wire?
he red wire is located in a harness at the left trunk hinge.
Anyhow, I went to the shop (very calmly) and asked the boss for my H2 harness, got it and left the shop within a minute or two.
I also took a pic (as shown below) of the antenna mounting positon so the ones who thought I was lying can have a look and make your own call. Remember, you might not think it's a big deal, but don't do this to your customers or they would be very unhappy like me.
Posted By: Fastlearner
Date Posted: August 07, 2006 at 1:25 AM
what the hell is wrong with that. Its a little to the left but maybe the wire couldn't be reached. I think showing that picture will bring a new doodieload of bash to you. Why are you complaining about that. Because its a little to the left, no biggie, works the same.
Posted By: bsd1
Date Posted: August 07, 2006 at 1:34 AM
Fastlearner wrote:That is exactly what I was told by the installer. Three inch to the left is too obvious.
what the hell is wrong with that. Its a little to the left
Fastlearner wrote:I thought so earlier as well. But then I found out a great length of antenna was taped up near the brain. Want me to take a pic of that to proof you? I guess not. Like I said, most installers have good workmanship. I by no mean to offend some of you lazy installers. Just to let you know that it's a very big deal.
maybe the wire couldn't be reached.
Posted By: spookiestylez
Date Posted: August 07, 2006 at 2:36 AM
The antenna should have been placed at the center of the windshield, nuff said. Just because its noticable and first time owners always bitch about everything and act like they know whats wrong.If you were to buy a alarm/etc from my shop and install, we have a lifetime warranty, but if someone goes behind me and starts unplugging sh** and doing this and that,guess what , your on your own,regardless if your having problems or not.If you were having problems w/ it, call or come back to the shop, let them deal w/ it, because thats their responsibility.Sorry that you got F*ed on your deal,you gotta watch out for those corner shops, great for some things, not others! I'd like to see pics of the install though.
sS
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RTFM
Posted By: bdl666
Date Posted: August 07, 2006 at 3:18 AM
This all sounds like an episode of Monk.
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ieSpell rocks.
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ieSpell rocks.
Posted By: Chris Luongo
Date Posted: August 07, 2006 at 8:01 AM
Fastlearner wrote:
what the hell is wrong with that. Its a little to the left but maybe the wire couldn't be reached. I think showing that picture will bring a new doodieload of bash to you. Why are you complaining about that. Because its a little to the left, no biggie, works the same.
Fastlearner,
If we install something like a sunroof or a leather interior, there are MANY opportunities to do either beautiful or poor work..........when a customer picks up a car from a leather install, and sees all of the seams neat and straight, no wrinkes or lumps......it makes them very happy, and they'll want to do business with us again.
Same thing for installing amps and/or subwoofers; there's a lot of stuff for the customer to look at and appreciate.
But when we install an alarm or remote starter, nearly everything is out of sight........the car doesn't look or behave any differently from before.......unlike a leather interior, it appears to the customer that they've just spent HUNDREDS of dollars for a couple of little remotes.
So, as alarm installers, we have very little opportunity to show off our skills to the customer.
The only opportunities we really have are the antenna, LED, valet switch, owner's manual, and remotes.......that's all the customer gets to see.
If the LED is mounted neatly and without scratches, the owner's manual on the dash, valet switch in a good spot where they're not going to bang it with their foot, the clock on the LCD remote set to the proper time and attached to customer's keychain.......and the antenna mounted nicely.............the customer will be impressed.
If they see the LED off-center, the antenna crooked, owner's manual on the garage floor with a footprint on it, and the remote tossed on the cash-register counter, the customer will think (and rightly so) that we are incompetent slobs.
I'm a neat-freak and detail oriented........not all installers are and that's understandable........but it is best if we assume customers are that way.
Likewise, a clever electrician will install all of his switchplate and outlet covers with all of the screws lined up either vertically or horizonatally........customers notice and love that stuff.
Posted By: customak47
Date Posted: August 08, 2006 at 5:51 PM
fast learner,
looks like a doodieload of bash fell on someone..... did you figure out your GTO?
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My rifle is my friend...
Posted By: Fastlearner
Date Posted: August 09, 2006 at 11:45 PM
After hour of hour of trying to find it I explained to the owner in great detail everything i did. I showed him every wire i ran and he understood that there was nothing that i could have done to do that. So he left and was cool with it.