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do it yourselfers

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URL: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=125716
Printed Date: March 29, 2024 at 9:08 AM


Topic: do it yourselfers

Posted By: cubanthug
Subject: do it yourselfers
Date Posted: January 17, 2011 at 2:05 PM

this goes to everyone stop helping or these first timer that is why alot of installer loosing jobs and the business going down the drain most real installers had to pay to go to school so please stop helping all the guys that want to do it themselves and don't know where to start

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cubanthug



Replies:

Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: January 17, 2011 at 3:17 PM
Could you provide some stat or evidence for that?

For fairness, it would be good to include the amount of work we, er, they - generate thru DIYers that stuff up more than they save. (That is really what this site is for - generating work for installers!)


But keep the facts hereon - do NOT go public.
Recently a prominent local called Gerry Harvey (the Harvey-Norman chain) went public about how eBayers are avoiding local Australian taxes and businesses by buying overseas. (Apparently at the time his wife was in New York doing lots of "cheap" shopping!!)

It turns out only ~1.5% of Australian purchases is/was via eBay and overseas.
But now that has jumped considerably because more people are aware of cheaper prices.... thanks to Gerry Harvey's publicity!   

Yes Gerry - just as you want to pay imported workers half the pay of locals, we too want to pay less!

Some say Gerry is a sour idiot. I reckon he has shares in eBay and Australia Post.



POST EDIT - Google gerry harvey
The first return is...
Gerry Harvey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gerry Harvey (born 18 September 1939) is an Australian richardhead best-known for being the executive chairman of Harvey Norman Holdings Ltd., a large company ...

[ richard is used above because this site does not like its abbreviated version. But Google does not censor it.... ]


I'm keen to mention the above because I know see - with MUCH hindsight and experience - how those that complain the most or try their hardest to prevent certain things are those that do the most damage - if not to the industry or group as a whole, certainly to themselves. Poor Gerry is an alleged example, but I think too of a few unfortunates in Asian jails for apparent drug crimes....

Be careful what you wish for....




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 23, 2011 at 7:42 AM
Oh come on, I love taking the whiz (do you think the censors will change this a word that rhymes with miss?) out of the "please help me, tell me every step and hold my hand" newbies.
Frankly the most blatant ones tend to be ignored, the stupids get barred.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 23, 2011 at 8:28 AM
Now Cubanthug, go to the archive section, most popular posts, no 54, 8 pages and 5 months on an R/S install into BMW, especially when I told the guy to extend the lock pulse and he asked how far.


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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: January 23, 2011 at 10:12 AM
Perhaps the DIYers are discouraged from going to "professional" installers because the "professional" installers can't use proper grammar, punctuation, or spelling?

posted_image

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Kevin Pierson




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 23, 2011 at 10:38 AM
Ah interesting point, most "platinums" (platinae?) including yourself use really good grammar and syntax.
I find an answer given in say your's or Luongo's concise style to be a reflection on the quality of your (good) work.
I hope you were referring to some install shops rather than the people here.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: Mike M2
Date Posted: January 24, 2011 at 6:43 PM
Hehehe, 4 posts and not one period or capital letter....

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Mike M2
Tech Manager
CS Dealer Services




Posted By: i am an idiot
Date Posted: January 24, 2011 at 7:24 PM
Even I use periods and Capital Letters.




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 25, 2011 at 12:19 AM
None of us opened with "Hi" or "So I", the last phrase really sticks in my throat.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: i am an idiot
Date Posted: January 25, 2011 at 3:47 AM
That is funny Howie.




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 25, 2011 at 7:55 AM
I don't know whether you're praising me or being ironic Craig but every time I see a post opening like the above two, I sigh because I know what's coming; I wish they were like Santa Claus (I'm allowed capitals, they're proper nouns).

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: afdanw
Date Posted: January 28, 2011 at 12:53 AM

cubanthug wrote:

this goes to everyone stop helping or these first timer that is why alot of installer loosing jobs and the business going down the drain most real installers had to pay to go to school so please stop helping all the guys that want to do it themselves and don't know where to start

I have worked at many shops, and only twice have i ever worked with anyone who went to installer school.  To be honest, they were both morons, and got fired quickly.  It was later explained to me, that individuals who went to installer school were rarely hired for that reason.  The same held true at all the shops i have ever worked for.  It is easier to train someone who has a basic understanding of electronics, and thinks logically.  You can train that person very well, and due to their lack of school, they are often more willing to learn.  A person who has been to school, but never done any real installs considers themselvs an expert.  It is hard to break them of bad habbits and teach them what they think they already know.  One of these Do-It-Yourselfers is probably going to eventually get hired at a shop and be a very good installer.  Maybe only 1 out of every 100, but that is OK.  hte other guys will screw up the install and pay a shop double to fix what they messed up. 

Now, dont misunderstand what i am saying.  I am not against all school.  I reacently finished my associates degree, and am currently working towards a bachelors.  I do believe school is good for some things.  I just believe DIY hands on learning with 12V is better. 



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If your cousin is such a good installer, and he will install anything for a 6 pack; why are you talking to me?




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 28, 2011 at 2:51 AM
So true, my experience tells me that the best installers have some electronics knowledge plus some good DIY/hands on technique plus the ability to listen and learn.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: January 28, 2011 at 4:38 AM
Damn! I have qualifications.

Luckily they have little to do with my knowledge.




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 28, 2011 at 6:30 AM
But you might be the exception Peter in so many ways.
I might well be wrong here but I'm pretty sure that Idiot, KP,
Dualsport and Hotwaterwizard amongst others have had formal training in electronics.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: KPierson
Date Posted: January 28, 2011 at 9:37 AM
^^^ I got my bachelors while I was installing. Great job for a full time college kid.

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Kevin Pierson




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: January 28, 2011 at 10:26 AM
A rich and rewarding tradition being carried on by young Tedmund right now. I think the whole point of the first poster was slightly wrong, it's not the people who paid to go to installer school, though, it's all of us loosing money through DIYers messing up. First from them not letting us supply and fit or even fit only (preferable in these times, no stock holding), then damaging the vehicles and having to take them to the franchised dealerships to be repaired. Either way we as a trade loose out.
Over here the alarm manufacturers won't even talk to you unless you work for a known company or are "known" in the trade.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: January 28, 2011 at 3:39 PM
Have I ever said I like this site?

Alas I do NOT like qualifications - they rarely make a knowledgeable person. (But they often disguise unqualified and unworthy people!)
However there are those brilliants & experts that happen to have qualifications.

As was written above, it is the people that make the expert.
(I discussed the same yesterday with a qualified automotive mechanic that also stated "Mechanics are bad!". We both agreed there are "amateurs" that know far better.)

I know I'm repeating the above. But I want to clarify my situation and comment (which Howard grasped and confirmed - cheque is in the mail Howard!).
Oh yeah - I too went back to school AFTER working.
My best EVER education - working in a panel shop. (Panel beating etc.) (University - I learned TWO practical things in 4 years of theory.)




Posted By: renswic
Date Posted: April 10, 2011 at 6:41 AM
Posting as a DIYer. Why do I install my own stuff(H/U, speakers, amps, subs one remote start(Viper 5101) one remote start/alarm(Viper 5701)) Simple with the audio stuff it's easy to do, even easier now with diagrams a quick google search away. I installed a sony(old one have newer stuff now) H/U into my old 88 s10 blazer in 35 mins. 30 of that was searching the factory wires because the last owner cut the factory plugs off. It doesn't make since to me to pay a shop an hours labor to do that.

Remote start/alarms I wont do again. Not because it was to hard(or all that easy) but because I want the warranty that comes with a shop install. The only hassle with that will be there are only 2 real installers and best buy here. Of those 2 only one does viper products and that place gets 50/50 reviews on installs. I'm picky I don't want T-taps used, I don't want a rats nest of unused wires and wires not being cut to fit.

But what em I to do past talking to their installers on what I want done and how I want it done.

Bottom line is that it is silly to pay for simple jobs I can do with out any troubles and pay for the important stuff.

afdanw wrote:

I have worked at many shops, and only twice have i ever worked with anyone who went to installer school.  To be honest, they were both morons, and got fired quickly.  It was later explained to me, that individuals who went to installer school were rarely hired for that reason.




Funny thing is, a lot of places are like that. Not jsut car audio. One shop here will not hire anyone with any kind of car audio schooling. They will train you and once you got a handle one how to do it the right way they will put you through the schooling so they can keep a couple of brands on.

I got my current job because I had no experience in the field. I was picked over a couple of people with some experience in the field(but with a different place).




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 10, 2011 at 6:52 AM
Renswic, read my by-lines, to which I should also add "planning and preparation."
In 95% of the installs, I've got everything planned and positioned as soon as I look at the vehicle.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: renswic
Date Posted: April 10, 2011 at 11:46 AM
howie ll wrote:

Renswic, read my by-lines, to which I should also add "planning and preparation."
In 95% of the installs, I've got everything planned and positioned as soon as I look at the vehicle.


I was mostly replying to the OP and anyone else ripping on DIYers and offering in site as to why I do it. :)

Prep work was a major part of my RS/Alarm install, I did have a installer friend help me to figure out what wires to pull from the harness and was kind enough to be on call for advice. If not for that I don't think I'd have been able to do it. Tis the smaller reason why I'll pay an installer to do the next one I get.




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 10, 2011 at 12:03 PM
Sorry, not having a go at you, reading between the lines I liked your attitude. Listen, learn, prepare, do.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: renswic
Date Posted: April 11, 2011 at 2:48 AM
howie ll wrote:

Sorry, not having a go at you, reading between the lines I liked your attitude. Listen, learn, prepare, do.


No troubles. :)

For the most part doing my own installs is great. Number one perk is that if something is wrong, I know how to trouble shoot and fix it. I. E. the amp(sub) is cutting out going over bumps in my s10.

Having installed it I'm pretty sure I know the problem and will be able to fix it next time it is warm and dry enough to pull a seat out of it.*

The 5701 in my s10 is having some odd problems and yes I'm always bugging my installer friend about it and again when it is warmer and dryer I'll triple check my wiring on it to be sure.

Working on my cars is a lot of fun for me and doing the small audio stuff and the RS/Alarm has thought me a lot about the electrical systems in cars.

*The Alpine IDA-X305S has the sub RCAs mounted on it and not on a tail(my old sony had a 6 inch lead for the sub rcas). Makes for a stupidly tight fit on my s10 so I tried to swap to right angle rca ends on my cable. I'm pretty sure the swap has failed. Replacement cable going in when I have a chance.




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 11, 2011 at 2:51 AM
Either that or a bad power/ground connect5ion or sin of sins, a dry joint on the amp.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: renswic
Date Posted: April 11, 2011 at 6:14 AM
howie ll wrote:

Either that or a bad power/ground connect5ion or sin of sins, a dry joint on the amp.


Checked all that. Considering that I used these(I was in a hurry and they were all I could get asap) https://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productid=2103789

I'm betting it is them. As is I need to do some work behind the trim panel that covers the radio area so I have a reason(or excuse) to pull it as well.

Going to take a heat gun and make some "adjustments" to the ac vents that is blocking me from having more room. :)




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 11, 2011 at 6:29 AM
So you cut your phono leads, or RCA or "cinch" as the French call them and resolderd? Check those joints, I ALWAYS buggered them up doing that, also test to see if any speaker leads go to ground on bumps.
The trick was to keep your original leads and buy PLUG-IN r/angle adaptors.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: renswic
Date Posted: April 12, 2011 at 7:45 PM
howie ll wrote:

So you cut your phono leads, or RCA or "cinch" as the French call them and resolderd? Check those joints, I ALWAYS buggered them up doing that, also test to see if any speaker leads go to ground on bumps.
The trick was to keep your original leads and buy PLUG-IN r/angle adaptors.


No they had screw on contacts(like I said I was in a hurry). Worked really good for about 8 months then started acting up.

Eather way moot point now. My new RCAs are in. also was able to extend the cable for my antenna so I got it ran at the same time. Factory one didn't work* so I added one to my unused roll bar light mount and was waiting for an extra 5 feet of cable to hook it up. it ran the same route as the rca so both got done.

*Discovered why it didn't work while I was pulling the cable out. At some point the last owners managed to slice it almost in half.




Posted By: tonanzith
Date Posted: April 16, 2011 at 12:47 PM
Sorry but I do NOT agree. I try to help people as much as possible and find that MOST individuals STILL find it too complicated to handle and/or still manage to screw it all up and BECAUSE I was willing to advise them, I end up being the FIRST person shop they come to to get it all worked out... By the way, MY shop has been doing great. 12 years strong. MOST failure is due to poor management or resources. I.E. inadequate advertising and/or money management.

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Gary Sather




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: April 16, 2011 at 1:03 PM
That's fine but would you give wiring info to a member of the public and you've no idea of their capabilities? These days that's asking for a liability action, fine if you get them into your workshop and do something for a modest fee, that's good practice and a way to capture future customers. So I'm generally agreeing with you.
With the competence of some rookies on this site; read the recent Honda posts, I'm glad our (free) advice carries no liability.

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Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: April 16, 2011 at 7:18 PM
As some wise one wrote:
Who Said? wrote:

...the amount of work we, er, they - generate thru DIYers that stuff up more than they save. (That is really what this site is for - generating work for installers!)


Though another wiser one writed of a possible aversion to bad gramar, punctuation. or speling as to why DIYers do DIY and not go professional. Dont now what that means but.


Though these sites can cause damage or trouble, they prevent more damage and trouble.
I think it's like seat-belts - safer than they are dangerous. Hence a nett gain, hence often compulsory.



I think of law suits here against the government for their incompetent legislation regarding driver licensing. 120 hours "practice" with any experience licensed driver. That's despite over 95% of Aussie drivers NOT knowing the round-about rule. As to defensiveness... ha! Except for the politicians. (Literally! Our federal opposition leader thought nothing wrong after his car slowed to do a cross lane turn from the center of a straight strip if single lane major highway. Unfortunately the truck(s) etc involved hit the ditches rather than the friggin idiots.)


Sorry - I digress.
Not that anyone is immune from suits - even us - but their are bigger damages out there.
But we can simply shut up. (That's what I did & do in some circles. But I try to laugh despite the tragedies.)


Anyhow, it seems like repetition of opinions that vary despite the same conditions. (Each case is individual...?)


PS - I forgot to comment about that Honda. Some advice is risky - the advice is sound, but if it spurs someone into action....
Reminds me of people that change engine oil for the first time and drain the gearbox instead. The wreck the gearbox and might blow the engine all because someone advised them how to save money. Damned greedy mechanics!




Posted By: renswic
Date Posted: May 16, 2011 at 2:14 AM
tonanzith wrote:

Sorry but I do NOT agree. I try to help people as much as possible and find that MOST individuals STILL find it too complicated to handle and/or still manage to screw it all up and BECAUSE I was willing to advise them, I end up being the FIRST person shop they come to to get it all worked out... By the way, MY shop has been doing great. 12 years strong. MOST failure is due to poor management or resources. I.E. inadequate advertising and/or money management.


You know. One off the shops here had a sign for the longest time that said:
"Advice will be given for free and with out any guarantee or warranty. Advice taken and used wrongly, will cause you to be laughed at and charged an extra 20% when we fix it"

They took it down after someone tried(and failed) to sue them for that 20% charge.

Still like the place. They will sell wire connectors and random connectors at a decent price(charged me $2 for a side post GM terminal extender). Where as the other place in town loves to mark that stuff up a few hundred times over their cost(quoted me $15 for the same extender...)




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: May 16, 2011 at 3:47 AM
Good one renswic.

Funny - but I interpret the "and charged an extra 20% when we fix it" to relate to the free advice, hence 0.2 x $0 = 0 extra charge.

However I'm sure that if that customer could prove that the were charged 20% extra AND they were laughed at (a necessary condition) because they used unwarranted free advice wrongly, they saw the possibility of recovering 16.7% of what they were charged.

However I suspect the court decided that the customer accepted the conditions of the contract.

Lucky the shop did not guarantee failure or the stupidity of customers etc - that could be a long drawn out case which the shop would have lost. (Hence why guarantees are NEVER made.)


CAVEAT - legal interpretations in this reply are based on my interpretation of Australian legal interpretation and law and may be wrong due to my unqualified expertise or legal precedents.

Moral - never express any sense of humor or sarcasm - Caveat Emptor! (What's Latin for "the expressor"?)




Posted By: laserbeak43
Date Posted: July 02, 2011 at 4:52 PM
internet's changed the way people do things a long time ago. better get used to it....




Posted By: tonanzith
Date Posted: July 02, 2011 at 5:25 PM
Reading up on the internet and even seeing photos of how something SHOULD be done, VS actual trained technicians with YEARS of experience ACTUALLY doing those things are completely different...

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Gary Sather




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: July 02, 2011 at 5:30 PM
That last post is so true, I'll do anything electrical but last Christmas my alternator belt went. Naturally front wheel drive, engine side ways, serpentine water pump, AC and power steering belt to be removed first, it took me ages to work out that the tensioners were worm drives rather than pulling the components out on a pivot then tightening them. Point is there's no substitute for hands-on.

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: July 02, 2011 at 5:31 PM
Shocking isn't it!
You'd think that more trained technicians with years of experience would get it right!

(I exclude that 20-year "expert" that wanted to put a capacitor across a LED's PWM etc etc. Oh wait - he was on the net, but he was a trained and experienced professional (allegedly), but luckily I was there to (try to) set him straight.)



PS - Sorry Howard - your reply snuck in under mine.
Not to say that I was thinking of some experts that are trained etc AND know what they are doing. AND are bluddy excellent to boot (meaning - but not limited to - technically speaking).




Posted By: hurst01
Date Posted: October 12, 2011 at 8:53 PM
This has been an interesting read to say the least. Experience can be defined many ways. I am not a trained installer, nor am I looking to be. I got my experience in electronics while dodging bullets and mortors in Viet Nam. I was assigned to an infantry unit that had no radio repairmen at all. I picked up hundreds of pieces of communication equipment and used all the common sense I could muster, exchanged parts and got two truckloads of radios and communication equipment back in service without having access to repair parts.
I soon became Senior Radio repairman and then Communications Chief, even though we later got 4 school trained radio repairmen.
Point is... sometimes common sense and a desire to learn goes a long way. I am since, a totally disabled Vet and a lot of things I can no longer do.
However, I came to this site to hoping to find information about retrofitting a factory Nav system onto a non-Nav vehicle because I checked with literally dozens of supposedly reputable installers and they told me it could not be done. One told me it would be easier to do brain surgery.
Definition of EXPERT: EX= A has-been. SPERT= A drip under pressure. I have been a professional in the military for long enough that I could no longer serve because of age and medical problems. I am currently a professional Motorcycle Safety Instructor. I am told that we are not allowed to give anyone advice or training outside of the classroom / riding range. Me not giving out any advice or tips will not cause the rider to not ride, but will let him / her continue to ride unsafe, possibly causing them to be killed or run over one of your family members and kill them.
I will agree that you can give out information and if someone does not have the ability to follow instructions so as to do the job right, it is frustrating, but they may come to you to repair their mistakes.
Another point that was made earlier, because someone holds the title of an installer, doesn't mean he knows what he is doing. Some of the installers I have come across I will not let them touch my car, or lawn mower for that matter. Whether someone wants to help out another individual or not it is up to them. It all depends on how it makes you feel. Personally, if I help someone and it turns out well, I feel very good about it. Does this mean I am going to be kicked off the forum?

Ed




Posted By: howie ll
Date Posted: October 13, 2011 at 12:35 AM
hurst01. Some good points but as you said so yourself, hands-on experience to me is the be-all and end all. In my case hands-on came a few years before electronics logic, usually prefaced by me asking why or what are...The big trick for me was always looking at other people's installs and asking myself, is there anything I can learn from this, would I do it better next time?
The problem is attitude. Many DIY people storm in without thinking an have a "this is easy" mind frame till the problems start. Half the time they aren't reading the instructions or researching their vehicle.. They never read my bottom line which to me is the most important part.
Ref the Sat Nav, what vehicle, I'll tell you whether it's do-able or notposted_image

-------------
Amateurs assume, don't test and have problems; pros test first. I am not a free install service.
Read the installation manual, do a search here or online for your vehicle wiring before posting.




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: October 13, 2011 at 2:05 AM
Salutations to you both!
I can relate to all the above: ex-spurts; necessity is the mother of invention; formal qualifications mean little.

My education preceded my qualifications (thank Dog!). I recall well "explaining the impossible". The funny(-NOT!) thing is that not much has changed since.

But why not help & suggest? I still learn by teaching others.
That's what I call a double-win situation (meaning from my selfish POV only).




Posted By: corrysmtx
Date Posted: October 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM
As far as the DIY'ers go I honestly cant be mad at them. Especially when they just listened to salesman go on and on about how easy it really is, then they'll talk to the cooky installer (you know the one who knows everything has an answer for it all hes just had the unfortunate luck of working on cars with bad BCMs or always seems to get the busted bypass) he usually agreeing with the salesman. It would be nice if just once the customer would ask why hes up here and not in the back working on one of the cars waiting. I get diy guys in all the time, Il give em pointers here and there but I refuse to touch a piece of their equipment without a issuing a charge. We usually get more for fixing their stuff then we would have installing from the start.

Today I was given a charger, the owner wanted his factory sounds improved, he had a decent factory 7 speaker system already. My boss/salesman sells him to sets of speakers and a four channel. He comes back with one line out converter. Then its my fault when I cannot make that car sound better then when it came in. Even tho I explained why this wasnt going to be a great a sound. Then he decides to leave instead of waiting for the customer who was sure to be upset. When I asked my boss who claims to have 20+ years exp. why he didnt focus on a new source I was told "proper sales technique starts from the trunk up". I can see why people want to diy.



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1 12" mtx 9500 4ohm dvc 1 8100d and 1 1501d almost loud enough to cover the sounds of my car dying.




Posted By: hurst01
Date Posted: October 16, 2011 at 11:36 AM
Thinking about it, how many installers actually have formal training? Not just from the shop chief, or supervisor, but actually went to school for installations?
I would venture to say that most started out as DIY'ers. There has been times when I have bought something and the cost of installation was almost as much as the price I paid for the item. Back when I was doing electronics, my job, done incorrectly, could cost lives or many casualties. That was another lifetime. Having a sound system or other component is not so serious, but it ticks me off to see broken clips, loose panels and wires hanging out.
I took my wife's BMW in to several shops to have a hands-free system installed a few years back. No one would touch it because it was new technology and they didn't want to be responsible for screwing up the BMW Nav system. So much for formal training. I later found someone else that said, no problem and it was done in a short while.
Honestly, I see most installers as have started out being DIY'ers and were really sharp at it and have a good head on their shoulders. In a situation like that, it is probably, for the most part, better than formal training. Sometimes formal training does no good, like trying to train a brick. If you don't have the aptitude and an interest in what you are doing you are not going to be good at it.

Ed




Posted By: oldspark
Date Posted: October 16, 2011 at 4:27 PM
Formal training... BMW... LOL! Until recently they were still teaching 13.8V for their charging systems despite having been updated to ~14.2V years ago. (Though I think that was a Bosch legacy....)

Alas it is DIYers that are more likely to be up with the new.
Those that are formally trained rely on that training (which has ceased for the qualified).
And in my experience, training LAGS reality - often by decades!


I maintain that the self-taught are the best. But that is a generalisation, and it does not include the "self taught idiots". (Like that audio-shop turkey that claimed my car's voltage might be 14.4V but only BEFORE it goes through the voltage-regulator, though that type of understanding is typical of formally trained people too.)


Broken clips etc comes down to attitude or pride, or maybe economic prudence (why charge a customer excessively for the non-essential).
Though I do wonder why the "brilliant mechanic" broke both door-handle surround plastics, and tried arc-welding the window-winder cable...

And most replies herein seem to cover my common allegation that managers are generally fairly unknowledgeable, and are led by "forced economics" or accountants (lower short-term cost etc).


But labor should cost more than parts. I remember a mechanic describing how they used to pull down an engine often (weekly) to re-shim the main & big-end bearings with paper. That was when labor was much cheaper than parts (1920s etc).





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