mecp

the seams to be a lot of installers that chat here how many have mecp certification.

i have advanced installer and will soon will be going for master, just some more studying this test is ridiculous. 

nouseforaname wrote:

---

~snip~ and i like your signature line from the movie "Waiting".

~snip~

---

Well I KNOW I'm going to blow a few fuses with this so be forewarned.....MECP vs. experience seems to be a very charged topic (well, at least for me). I am certified as a basic installer and as a salesperson. I dont believe that there is necessarily one better than the other, just advantages. I think everyone serious about what they do should strive to be certified. There seems to be a lot of guys who have already "put in time " who do not have the respect for the certification that it deserves. The certification test is made by long-time installers, shop owners, manufacturers, and others who have "put in time" and deem it very important for a sound foundation inside an industry that only gets more and more complicated as time goes by. IMHO experience means one thing, speed due to repetition. Think about it, when new vehicles hit the market (especially totally new designs) put the experienced guy and the certified guy in with the car and the are in the same boat--neither have had the experience of this vehicle. But hark I say because the certified guy has a decent electrical background which MAY give him the advantage. Vehicles are more and more sophisticated each year so experience by itself may not hold up as strong as it would have 10 years ago. Oh, BTW when i say certified guy i dont mean a new person who has never touched a car, he has SOME experience otherwise why would he have chosen this field of work, surely not for the fame, fortune, or endless line of women (or men if u prefer) at your feet! I kinda take the whole "just a piece of paper" thing personal because i worked hard for it and will continue on the path to hold every certification the CEA has. But I also understand both sides: In 2002 I took my geo to BB to have my system installed b/c they were certified. I had them design the system for me and i was in there every 2 weeks like clock work exchanging my blown woofers that they had chosen for "optimum performance" with my amplifier also from BB. The madness only stopped when they no longer carried the woofers and let me chose a set to my liking, which never blew. It was frustrating b/c how could someone certified make such a mistake? i asked. Now my more recent experience was with my last employer. He had been in business for 11 years and he installed he said almost every day. He had a prized employee who had also been doing this for 5 years with him. He hired me to help open a new store and help with the work load. Well between the 2 "experienced installers" i spent 50% of my time repairing terrible installs of which none were mine. I worked there for 3 months. His only complaint was that I wasnt fast enough (though I could do 4 vehicles in an 8 hour shift by myself and help in front with sales at the same time). That was wierd b/c i spent a lot of time repairing wiring that looked like twine and troubleshooting things. Now the advantage I had over both of them was the fact that I could troubleshoot things almost 4 times as fast as they could b/c i had the electrical background from studying for the MECP, thats why i spent so much time fixing their bad installs. Now the only reason that I am no longer there is the fact that the new store went belly up and since i was the last one in, i was the first one to go. Well here is my 2 pennies about this MECP vs Experience thing: If i had to chose as a consumer and/or shop owner here is what they would be in order:

1.MECP Installer w/experience (have your cake and eat it 2!)

2.Experienced installer willing to become/andstay certified.

3. MECP Installer (electrical knowledge will lessen likelyhood of mistakes)

4.Experienced installer who will not become certified(imo, certification shows some respect for the industry)

5. An apprentice

That's my $.02, and thanks for letting me vent. One love!

KarTuneMan wrote:

---

---

That's cool, and i'm not saying that b/c u are certified that u won't catch anything on fire, just that the likelyhood that u will should be greatly reduced with the extra knowledge that certification requires. Like I said, i think anybody really serious should give it go at being certified mainly for the customers, they tend to have more respect (if they know what MECP is) for the installer, shop, install, cost of install, etc. and those that dont know will ask. You know it's kinda like being a certified (ASE) mechanic, doctor (PhD), or anything else it just holds a little wait and gives some reassurance.

Not certified, never plan on becoming certified and personally do not see the need to do so. One advantage I have in my experience is being a business owner. Once you view MECP as a business and not a licensing program, you can see past the Jedi Mind Trick that they are doing to you. After everything is done, at the end of the day, MECP is a business, that  business is to take your money and trade you a peice of paper for it.

A customer does not give two shats about a piece of paper. What they care about it the price and if the contraption you just installed into their car works or not. Will MECP make me more adapt at doing something I for example have been on top of for 20 years, nope. Could I go to MECP and instruct, if asked and the time was free, yup. Wait a minute....I don't have a piece of paper though...... and probably never will.

I'm not certified any more. I have been certified in the past, but just because my employer at the time required it. My cert has long since expired. I did buy the new MECP advanced/whatever study guide  -  I like to read. I am considering getting re-certified, but only to use it as a lever

I've seen certified, but inexperienced, installers do some C R A Z Y things to cars! There is positively NO substitute for experience. A new Tech will learn VERY rapidly if he is supervised by an experienced Tech. Common sense, folks. My point is - taking & passing some test will not make you "The Man".

Concerning the hypothetical "New Car" situation mentioned previously in this thread, I am of the firm opinion that in the un-certified-with-experience Tech vs certified-but-not-so-experienced Tech situation, the experienced dude will figure out the "New Car" faster & he will do a better job. That is how an experienced Tech becomes an experienced Tech! That is the benefit of experience.

Old Dogs learn new tricks every day, man, so they will ALWAYS be ahead of the newbys ... sorry kids!

ive owned a shop for over 15 years and installed for much longer than that. not certified nor do i wish to be. and i read in this post "put 2 installers in a new car blah blah blah" well in my area....i am the tech installer. other shops call me with their problems. and i try to solve them for them, hands on in their shop. while their "certified installers watch and get some pointers, and sometimes give some. if we all work together, we can do anything.

in my opinion...."there is no replacement for experience" would  i be a better installer if i was certified?

im not trying to blow my own horn. what im saying is, much of what we do is common sense and being able to read a circuit. looking at how it works, and what it would take to duplicate it. thought is a great thing....but i see tons of "installers" who cant think for themselves.

and a forum like this one will make a so so installer a great installer. if they read and learn.

xs

keep-up the tips and tricks here.

Here is a great example of how common sense and MECP do not go hand in hand. Pay attention to post #7.

https://www.canadiancaraudio.com/online/general-discussion/20704-2001-sunfire.html

My post is post#9.

forbidden wrote:

---

Here is a great example of how common sense and MECP do not go hand in hand. Pay attention to post #7.

https://www.canadiancaraudio.com/online/general-discussion/20704-2001-sunfire.html

My post is post#9.

Yeah I totally agree, but if you really READ my original post thoroughly you will realize I had a similar experience at BB, that was my first story of an MECP installer messing up something they should've known. Maybe I should explain a little better, I live in Louisville, KY for those of you who do not know there are not a lot of people here certified and i hear a lot of people dont like to go to shops here in the city b/c they mess up a lot of stuff (things that pertain to such things as proper wire gauge and such). These things are learned through certification or some type of schooling. My point is I would not prefer one over the other, i think it is best to have both. I've had 2 bosses(who combined for 20+ years of experience) almost catch cars on fire because of improper gauge wire on amp installs that i argued about them letting me use the proper gauge. I only knew this b/c of learning to be MECP certified. So i guess maybe the old dogs where i live need some new tricks. And also if you notice that some of the guys in here who give excellent advice on installs have post-secondary education  whether it be MECP or a bachelor's or whatever. There's no replacement for experience, but knowledge is power. Personally , i'd rather have more than enough (experience and certification) than not enough. I am certified but i still need more experience b/c i want to be one of the best installers in the country eventually but i know without the experience AND the knowledge it wont happen. That's why i spend so much time online or in magazines and books trying to learn as much as I can from those who are more experienced. YOU ARE ALL RIGHT- you cant beat experience but dont knock b/c i want to be certified. It may mean nothing to you but to me it shows my commitment to learn everything i can about this industry and gives me a little motivation to continue. Thank You.

---

ok i have a question. why do, especially the veteran installers hate on MECP? Here we have an organization that is try to educate and set some standerds for our industry, a industry  that has no standerds (well we have CEA2006 but it is optional) and is full of deceitful manufactors, retailers and installers. maybe mecp has some flaws but it is up to the people (the veterans) the people who know what this industry is all about to help shape the test to better the new comers. think about what some of these new cars are comeing out with CAN BUSS, FIBER OPTICS, DATA BUSS, MOST BUSS, and other systems that just love to #$%^ up our whole game. do we want uneducated kids, most who probably dont even know these systems even exist working on thes kind of cars or would we rather have them go to school and at liest get a clue. im not saying every person that goes to school will come out a great installer, but the ones that have an aptitude for this will be ahead of the game.

lets look at this as well. I can add any thing to all most any car from cruse control to a rockin ass system i dont care if you got a 2006 BMW 750iL or a 1991 ford escort, and my labor rate is about $50 an hour. now the tech who workes on this bmw and uses process of elimination at the comsumers expense to solve problems is making over $100Hr, even the guy at the muffler shop across the street working on the escort is giting $70Hr now i ask why? because the automotive repair industry is looked upon by consumers as an educated and knowledgeable industry. go in to any automotive repair shop and whts the first thing you see is all the certifications on the walls for the mechanics and the shop thats whi peopl have no problem forking over twice as much money an hour for there car.

would you got to a doctor that has not gone to school but has been cuting people open for 15 years? i hope the answere is no. so why would you take a car that just cost you between $30,000 and god knows much to a guy that just claims to know what he is talking about. i would fell much better seeing thoes certifications on the wall telling me that this shop is full of people that are educated and experinced, and i would not complain about shelling out a few extra dollors to have them work on my car.

so instead of saying that MECP does not prepair new installers for this kind of work lets let mecp know what might just make some good improvements to the test. and maybe add some criteria to get certified of even another organization to come up with more trials to pass so we can have multiple standerds in our industry.

josh1979 wrote:

---

ok i have a question. why do, especially the veteran installers hate on MECP?

---

Qinstaller wrote:

---

No matter what it's about an aptitude for learning. not everyone has the opportunity to strike up an aprentice-ship with a shop and learn the ropes from an experienced Installer. So going to one of the exellent schools or just buying the book and taking the tests on your own is another way for a person to get there leg in the door and show that they have an aptitude and desire to learn and evolve. personally if I owned my own shop those are the kind of people I would want to hire.

---

Those are my sentiments exactly!! Like I said, I live in Kentucky and originally from Indianapolis, IN. I had to order my MECP books, study on my own, and take the test on my own. I cant afford to go way out to Cali or Florida or Jersey for weeks at a time let alone the cost of the school (I have 4 kids) so that was my only other option. And I've run into a few guys that say the same " I've been doing it for awhile so I dont need a certification..." and the shop that employ these guys felt the same....but what ticked me was that majority of their installs were CRAPOLA, I mean wires were just stuffed behind a deck like a ball of twine, fiberglass work was paper thin (light shining through) and this was supposed to be "the finished product before a little sanding and paint..." and the fit and finish of the custom work is greusome! This is the reason that there is a HUGE regression of work in the Midwest and the reason I have to move to California, not only for decent work but to grow PROPERLY in my experience in the industry. Now I think this is a time when "a little schooling" and certification  would serve the industry and market tremendously. That's just 2 more cents!

auex][ wrote:

---

UOTE=josh1979] ok i have a question. why do, especially the veteran installers hate on MECP?

---

I feel the same way about any type of certification. (A+, MECP, etc.)  But i think it serves as proof.  An installer of 15 years experience applying for a job can show his projects and work (photos, cars).  But installers learning through hobby, like myself, could use the certification to back up their word that "I DO KNOW" what i say i do.  Anyone can say they know this and that, but today, most people's "word" means nothing.

Melted Fabric wrote:

---

DJdowdell, what part of California are you moving to?

---

Fairfield, CA between San Francisco and Sacrmento.

rnemtb wrote:

---

 hello everyone, i got my mecp a year ago.i did installs of head units and amps as hobby.i can not even get an apprenticship in new jersey,which i would prefer to gain more knowledge and experience before doing this as part time job.just because i went to school for thisand got certified,i know i need more hands on experience. most shops in my area want at least three years of shop experience. just goes to show that a piece of paper wont get you a job ,that it is just another step in obtaining more knowledge in this ever growing industry .

---

That is totally correct. In a nut shell being certified OR experienced means the same thing to the customer-REASSURANCE! So maybe instead of hating on each other how about this solution---All of you guys who are experienced, certified or not, show the "green weenies" how it is done. Share the knowledge and help the industry as a whole because it is NOT about you but the end user who is the consumer. Bad installs affect ALL of us so we should stand together for the good of the industry, that's why in my opinion everyone should be certified just to show some unity in the industry because we need each other and our customers so take care of everyone. But if you chose not to be certified that is your choice but you still have a responsibility to the industry whether you like it or not. So all the grumpy old men show us youngsters how its done, you might learn something too! Together we shall overcome some day!

The point of the certification is not to show that you know how to install or not, but to prove that you know WHY it works. For example, most installers know how to install a window control module, but in truth, only about 20% know how it works and why. The secret to their abilities lies within not the module but the window motor itself. When pressure is applied to a window motor (such as getting fully closed or opened) it will draw more power (10-15% more depending on motor type [2wire/3wire types most common]) and trip a draw sensor in the module opening a window relay.

Second, it provides the base for understanding fully how arrays of components work thus allowing the installer to maximize the efficiency of the components and systems.

Now experienced shop people know the installs and many veterans know roughly how they work. But with new technologies always coming out, eventually products will exceed the ability and knowledge aquired in shops. Veterans of the shop know their stuff, but to improve what is given to them is what is provided with the MECP (if they COMPLETELY understand the foundation of electronics).

Although Ohms law is the most referenced understanding of electronics, its basis lies within Kirchoff's primary laws and the understanding of fundamental versus scientific current flow.

Even many veterans who have been in the business for years don't pass the test on their first time around on it. Most don't know about the Munsen Curves and how they affect sound. Knowing how the curve works will allow the installer to predict and maximize the output of the sound system and use less energy to do it. The MECP fills in the holes for that ability. We know of a veteran who has been doing it since the 60s and he failed during the first time he went at it.

Combine experience with knowledge (not wisdom) and now the installer is at a level where about 95% of the industry isn't development of technologies. Essentially a non-documented engineer who can create something that will make the 95% of installer's installs easier. That is how most audio companies started.

The MECP is essentially a sped up version of the school of hard knocks without the hard knocks. You'll learn everything needed to know to be safe in the shop and to get the job done. Experience speeds the install up.

In the end, MECP doesn't make one an installer. It's proof that there is enough basic understanding to keep the client's vehicle relatively safe. Experience doesn't mean the installer knows why (s)he does what (s)he does. They just know that it's what they do.

bellsracer wrote:

---

The point of the certification is not to show that you know how to install or not, but to prove that you know WHY it works. For example, most installers know how to install a window control module, but in truth, only about 20% know how it works and why. The secret to their abilities lies within not the module but the window motor itself. When pressure is applied to a window motor (such as getting fully closed or opened) it will draw more power (10-15% more depending on motor type [2wire/3wire types most common]) and trip a draw sensor in the module opening a window relay.

Second, it provides the base for understanding fully how arrays of components work thus allowing the installer to maximize the efficiency of the components and systems.

Now experienced shop people know the installs and many veterans know roughly how they work. But with new technologies always coming out, eventually products will exceed the ability and knowledge aquired in shops. Veterans of the shop know their stuff, but to improve what is given to them is what is provided with the MECP (if they COMPLETELY understand the foundation of electronics).

Although Ohms law is the most referenced understanding of electronics, its basis lies within Kirchoff's primary laws and the understanding of fundamental versus scientific current flow.

Even many veterans who have been in the business for years don't pass the test on their first time around on it. Most don't know about the Munsen Curves and how they affect sound. Knowing how the curve works will allow the installer to predict and maximize the output of the sound system and use less energy to do it. The MECP fills in the holes for that ability. We know of a veteran who has been doing it since the 60s and he failed during the first time he went at it.

Combine experience with knowledge (not wisdom) and now the installer is at a level where about 95% of the industry isn't development of technologies. Essentially a non-documented engineer who can create something that will make the 95% of installer's installs easier. That is how most audio companies started.

The MECP is essentially a sped up version of the school of hard knocks without the hard knocks. You'll learn everything needed to know to be safe in the shop and to get the job done. Experience speeds the install up.

In the end, MECP doesn't make one an installer. It's proof that there is enough basic understanding to keep the client's vehicle relatively safe. Experience doesn't mean the installer knows why (s)he does what (s)he does. They just know that it's what they do.

---

nouseforaname wrote:

---

~snip~

and mecp is NOT proof that there is a basic understanding to keep the clients vehicle safe. the only proof for that is experience. i know a 1st class certified installer that caught a customers car on fire which resulted in the car being totaled out, all because he got  a little c**ky referencing his certification as proof he knew what he's doing. last i heard, he's working at some sort of factory, alot of good that nice respectful certification is doing him.

---

bellsracer wrote:

---

The point of the certification is not to show that you know how to install or not, but to prove that you know WHY it works.

---

Very well said!!! Before I became certified during my search for a job installing I ran across a lot (meaning almost all in Louisville) shops with guys with years of experience so they had no need for a "green" installer. But these guys were kind enough to conversate with me about some of their installs and the one question that not a single one of them could answer for me was "why did you ____ this way?". That was dumbfounding to me. What if I were the customer and it was my vehicle? If you cant tell me why then I dont want you touching my car because if there were a problem later on how would you convince me it were not your fault? Plus, me personally not knowing something is my biggest fear in life so I always want to know why. So now since I know a little more I can explain to someone why they for example should use 0 gauge wire with that 2000 watt amp instead of 8 or 10 gauge( I've seen it done with my own eyes!) not only safety but getting the most sound for your dollar. So that's why I prefer to be certified and I buy any books or magazines that will help me further my knowledge. Like my pops always says "If you dont know why you are doing it, then why are you doing it?"