High Beams on without momentarily blankin

OK.

Lot's of GREAT information here! 

Here's my problem.  I am installing HID lighting in my Jeep and have already upgraded my H4 wiring harness to grab power directly from the battery.  It has separate relays and fuses and is working great.  The HID lamps are ONLY low beam.  Ideally, I would like to use my existing PIAA driving lights AS my HIGH beams.  I can easily tap into the H4 High beam wire and that will work just fine.  My problem is that when I "Flash To Pass OR put the high beams on, the Low beams go off for a split second and then come back on.  This is not an issue with standard OEM bulbs, but with HID's, the ballast can suffer with the "off/on" voltage spike.  The low beams ALREADY stay on WITH the high beams which is exactly what I want.  I need to figure out an "easy" way to keep the power consistent without switching from low to HIGH.  Any ideas and diagrams would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!  Even if I don't end up rigging my PIAA's as my high beams - if I forget and flash high beams that are non-existent ... the voltage will still drop out and come back.

Thanks in advance, and I hope this is simple with a diode or relay ...

Im not sure how your HID ballasts are wired as I have not installed  a set of these but try this.  Take your trigger wire and source voltage to it (12volts) the lights should come on then turn it off.  the lights turn off and then back on but for how long?  If they turn back on but for only a short time it sounds like it may be an inductor or transformer component in the ballast causing this.  When an inductor is energized it oposes any change in current,(current lags the voltage),  so when the lights are switched off the voltage spikes to try to maintain the current stored in the magnetic field.  This collapsing of the field takes a short time which is why the lights will come back on even though the trigger wire is switched off.  I think this is what is happening but only if the lights do eventually turn off after a period of time.  Installing a transient voltage recovery capacitor or  more likely a freewheeling diode should solve this problem.  The diode acts as a temporary load for the collapsing current and rising voltage so your ballast won't see the spike.  Hope this helps or at least explains what could possibly be happening.

bwharvey

My original thoughts on this disregard them as I didn't realize the lights do come back on and stay on. I think your right the switch function itself is causing your problem. I know how to fix this but my method requires the use of a 12 volt off-delay timing relay.  You might have to go to an electronics store, as an install shop would probably not be able to get this from their suppliers.  The wiring of this off-delay timing relay works like this.  You would run a wire fused from the battery to one side of the N/O contact on this relay.  The other side of the N/O contact on the relay would go to the HID trigger wire ( no longer go to the low beam).  The coil of the Off-delay timer would connect to the low beam trigger wire.  The other side of the coil on the off-delay timer relay would go to ground.  How it works is like this.  The low beams turn on and the HID's come on.  When you switch to high beam the high beams come on but the low beams will stay on with no flash because if you set the timer ( probably a pot on the relay) to just longer than the flash time say 1 second the timer will not time out because power is regained again before it can operate.  An off-delay timer works like this.  When it is energized the N/O contact closes right away.  When the relay is de-energized after a set time the contact opens. So if you set the time on the relay a little longer than the flash time then the HID's will stay latched in while switching to high beam.  When the low beams are turned off the timer will time out after say 1 second and the HID's will turn off.  I can't think of any other way to solve this problem.  The hardest part will be locating the off-delay timer relay.

Regards Brock

So, I'm not making ANY changes to the High Beam leg at all, right?

No don't make any changes to the high beam leg but if you add a set of lights off the high beam trigger it won't affect the low beam.  Ask the electronics parts store guys for a 12 volt off-delay timing relay with contacts rated for 1 or 2 amps.  The current rating of the contacts can be low since the HID's trigger wire won't draw much current, this will also keep the cost down.  They may have to special order this part as I don't think it is that common in 12 volt applications.  Any questions on the wiring once you get the relay e-mail me at bkharvey@telus.net

Brock

Great!

 I will make a couple of calls on Monday.  Any idea what the relay "should" cost me?  I completed the HID install today, and "tried" the flash to pass to confirm that the HID's would remain on and they did NOT.  I'm afraid to try it again since I don't want to damage the ballasts.  Although my initial goal was to maintain use of the existing stalk/steering column switch - now I'm concerned.  When I used my little 12V test light on the low beam side WHILE activating the High Beams - I noticed the flicker - but the test light was still ON.  Unfortunately, because the install was sooooooooo tight - it would be tough to even get back to the H4 plug at this point.  :(  Any additional thoughts?

Brock,

Would a do-it-yourself kit like this work?  It appears to be fixed @ 50 seconds ...

Thanks!

https://mmm1107.verio-web.com/grayma/catalog/148.htm

Sorry I didn't read your last reply before replying myself.  The 50 second fixed time won't work.  Try to get one that times down to at least one second or even less if possible, it should be adjustable.  This problem of "flicker " also exsists on 2003 Chevy diesel HD trucks with remote start and glow plug delay.  The glow plug output wire goes from positive to negative and when using the new Black Widow remote starters, they automatically sense positive or negative glow plug signals.  The problem is the output has a fast pulse from positive to negative before it actualy goes negative and the glow plug indicating light on the dash goes out which causes the vehicle to start before the glow plug light goes out.  The off-delay timing relay will cure this.  I have a truck with this problem and when I fix it I'll let you know how it went.  I have to get a relay so when I get it I'll give you the info on it.  Might not be for a while though.

Thanks.  One more problem.  Since I actually installed the HID's this weekend, I tried using the flash to pass AND putting the High Beams on (even though none are connected) and the HID's turned off.  Not sure exactly why I got 12v+ coming off of the Low Beam side during my tests with NO bulbs.  I hate to think that I'm going to need to use a separate switch after all - but that is sounding more and more like the "easy way out".  Any ideas (more ideas) ???

Thanks ... AGAIN!

Check out www.pac-audio.com.  I installed a PAC TR-7 module in my Land Rover Discovery and it allowed me to control multiple sets of driving lights using 1 momentary switch.  This module is programmable to do may different things.  I set it up on my lights like this.  The first press of the momentary switch turned the driving lights on.  The second press turned the 2nd set of driving lights on and the 1st set of driving lights off.  The third press turned both sets on.  The fourth press turned both sets off. Cool cause you can do multiple functions with one switch or pulse off a spare alarm channel.  Something you may be interested in.  I bought the module from Staub Electronics in Canada and dealer cost was around 35 bucks.

If you are still looking for a timer check out Releco, they have an off-delay that times down to 0.2 seconds-30 minutes ajustable (don't know the cost ) An electrical wholesaler will probably carry it.  It's rated for 9-18volt DC.  The module you showed me with the 50 second time would work, the only problem is when you actually shut the low beam switch off, the lights will stay on for 50 seconds before actually going off .  The flicker problem should be cured with that module though a timer with lower time setting would be better.

Brock

Hmmm.  Also interesting.  My hope was to retain my original headlight switch and original High Beam Stalk.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, when I hit the "flash to pass" OR the high beams, my low beams (HID's) go OFF.  Not as I expected with my testing phase.  Confusing.  Is there a way to keep the Low's on ALONG WITH the Highs ... now that we have this "new information"?  Can I use a relay off of the highs to supply power back to the lows when activated?  Then, I would still get a glitch or two when the power is applied/removed, right?  This is requiring way more brain power than I had imagined.  Thanks ...

Rick

Anything can be done but I need to know the polarity on the low/high beam light switch when operating with low beams on and with highs on.  So what your saying is you don't get 12 volts on both low beam and high beam trigger at the same time only 12 volts on one or the other.  If this is the case I can get lows and highs on at the same time using a seal-in or holding contact circuit, but my problem would be shutting the low beams off after you turn the switch completely off.  I'll have to figure a way out to do it using just the factory switch.  I can do it using a separate off switch but that is not cool and the easy way out. I didn't realize that the lows shut off completely when switched to high beams, I thought they remained on with the glitch.  The off-delay timer would have fixed the problem if that was the case but now your saying the lows turn off when switched to highs right?  I'll see what I can come up with, I might need a little time.

Brock 

Thanks Brock.  You're 100% correct.  I have not tested the H4 connector since installing the HID's.  I've got nothing connected to the High Beam Leg at all and the HID's (Low Beam Trigger) go OFF when I hit the "flash to pass" or flip the High Beam ON.   I can't imagine that I'm still getting 12Volts on the low side unless the ballast is shutting down momentarily with the glitch.  If you need me to test it again - it would be tricky ... but manageable.

I really appreciate your assistance and willingness to help solve my problem.  Should we continue on the board - or off line email direct?  Your call.  Perhaps someone else is trying to do EXACTLY what we're trying to do and can benefit?

Thanks! - Rick

On the board is fine with me.  I have to go on a course out of town next week and I don't have a lap top, so don't panic if I don't get back to you for a bit.  Let me know what you come up with and I'll try to help you get this solved. If I get any more ideas I'll let you know.

Brock

Thanks again, and have a safe trip! - Rick

Rick it came to me last night.  I've got it figured out now that I know exactly how your factory switch is operating.  This circuit will turn on the low beams (HID's) using the factory switch, turn on the high beams with factory switch leaving the low beams on without momentarily shutting off, and when the switch is turned off, no lights on,  the low beams will shut off.  I think this is what you are trying to achieve right? 

You will need two bosch type SPDT 30 amp relays and two 12volt DC off-delay timers like we talked about before.  I will get a diagram off to you to follow, in the mean time you can get the parts.  I'm 100% confident this circuit will work for what you want to do.

Brock

Yes!  I basically want to use the factory switch for my HID lows, use the flash to pass OR high beams while keeping the HID's ON, Have them STAY on even with the high beams off and have them go off when I turn them off via the factory switch.  That's what you said, right?  Basically, seamless factory operation with the exception of the highs staying on.

Here's the email I just sent you to summarize:

H4 Low ON WITH High Beams?

OK … I'm sure I'm not the first to ask this question. How do I KEEP my low beam on WHILE I use the "Flash To Pass" OR the High Beam on switch?

I recently converted to HID and kept the H4 socket connection directly to the ballast using the 9006 female to make my harness. I'm providing the 12V + and ground directly from the existing (upgraded/fused/relayed)

H4 wiring harness. I would like to be able to use my existing PIAA driving lights as my high beams using the existing steering column mounted switch and have the Lows - HID's - remain ON as well.

How exactly can I do that? Now, with NOTHING connected to the High Beam wire of the H4, and my Low Beams on (HID) - "flash-to-pass OR High Beams on TURN OFF the HID's. I tested all H4 connections before installing the HID's and it seemed as if the Low beam side was still hot when I switched to the High. A little confusing to me.

I know the easy way out would be to use another switch - but I really want to retain the existing one. And, if someone else is driving my Jeep, I don't want them to look for the High Beams and damage the HID Ballast by repeatedly trying it without results.

Brock,

Thanks ... AGAIN!

Brock, Can you look at these links for me?  I called my local electronics shop and the off-delay timre is $120.00 EACH.  I'm not going to be spending $240 + the pair of relays + the box + the cable ...  I almost fell out of my chair.

Here goes:

https://www.ics-timers.com/khtimers1.html

https://www.ics-timers.com/kd6xxsel.html

https://www.ics-timers.com/products.html

Here are a few links I found.  The one below looks good, I think!

https://www.hometech.com/brains/timers.html

Brock,  You ARE the man!  Your last post got me thinking about my EXISTING oem light switch.  (stay with me here)  Okay,   It's a two position switch.  Position 1 is my parking lights and position 2 is my parking lights WITH my low beam headlights!  Why can't I come off of that position 1 that's going to my parking lights, hit a relay and then the ballast of my HID x2?  That way, position 1 would be my parking lights AND my low beams.  And, my existing PIAA driving lights COULD go to the High Beam leg of my H4 connector.  Then, the "flash to pass" and high beam would be INDEPENDENT of the Low Beams/Parking Lights, RIGHT ???

Am I crazy - or is this a great idea?  It looks like the only thing I would lose is my ability to use JUST my parking lights WITHOUT my low beams.  Big deal.  I never drive with ONLY my parking/running lights!

What do you think ???

Yah that would would work fine and you have described it exactly how it works.  The diagram I came up with does exactly the same thing except you would be able to have parking lights on all by themselves.  To do it my way is more complicated than you would think and requires tricky relay logic and more money spent on parts.  I like your idea, you will save some cash and like you say who cares about having park lights on all by themselves.  I still enjoyed the challenge of making it work the other way.  The schematic required some reverse logic thinking for it to work properly.  I'll send you the schematic when I finish it on my PC just for your records. Sounds like case closed.

Good talking to you

Brock Harvey

Excellent!  I really appreciate your ideas - because it made me think ALSO!  Now, I've got 2 PIAA (new) relays that I didn't use on my initial install.  I imagine I could use them - 1 per low beam side? 

I imagine that I tap into the existing parking lamp wire as the trigger, right?

Is there a way to run ONE cable only with one heavier duty relay?  Or, is it safer to do one per side?  I'm looking for easy - but safe at the same time.  My existing (soon to be High Beam PIAA's) lamps can go directly to the Upgraded H4 harness High Beam side and it's already through a relay and a fuse directly to the battery.

Thanks! - Rick

I would just run one per side since you have them already. You could take a clip on ammeter and measure the current to each light and then add them together to get a total current draw.  Then size your relays, fuse, and wire accordinly, you may be able to use one relay if the current draw is within its range without being overloaded.  Or you could divide the wattage rating of the lights by the voltage (12volts) to get the current.  Your right just tap into the existing park light wire either at one of the lights or at the light switch itself.  I think at the light switch it's BLACK / YELLOW positive trigger but I don't know what year your jeep is so it could be different. 

Brock

One more thing, If you ever decided to do the wiring using the timers the one you figured would work well is right.  I think it was the .....970 for $20.95 would be perfect.

Later Brock

Believe it or not, I have not added an ammeter to my bag of tricks at this time.  I think the HID's draw ONLY 35 watts after the initial 23,000 Volts? to start-up.  The PIAA's come with 35watt H3's - so I'm probably ok, right?  I may consider using 55watt - since they wold only be used in short intervals and will go to my upgraded harness anyway.  Do you think the relays that came with the Piaa 35 watt driving lights would be sufficient - based on what you know about my set-up?  And, I would rather make connections under the hood versus under the dash.  I've got a 2000 Jeep Cherokee.

Thanks - Rick

Yah I think the PIAA relays would work fine (the one that came with my off-road PIAA's was good quality) and sufficient current rated.   Not to many guys with a DC Ammeter as they are a little more pricey than an AC clip on ammeter and not that important for typical 12 volt installations.

Brock

Thanks again.  I will probably dig into it this weekend.  Do you see any issue with changing the 35 watt bulbs with the 55 watt bulbs?  I would be concerned if they were the mains and used all the time.  My intent is probably ONLY "Flash To Pass" or minimal High Beam On use.

Rick

I don't see any problem since the time used will be intermittent.  Have fun!

Brock

Thanks again!

Rick

OK,

You can tell I'm STILL thinking about this one!  My existing Fused/Relayed Upgraded H4 Harness is plugged into the stock oem H4 plug.  Can I pull that plug, take the parking light hot and go to where the low beam h4 harness is?  That way, if I'm thinking this through, the signal to trip the relays will come from the parking lights and use the existing connections to my low beam HID's ???

If so, then I would only need to use my PIAA (Highs) 12v+ and go to the high side of the upgraded H4 harness?  Would they interfere with each other since they're both on the same set of relays/power?  The trigger for the lows would be from the parking light wire and the trigger for the highs would be from the Piaa's?  Hopefully, I'm not back to square one???

Thanks - I'm just looking for a way to keep my existing harness and perhaps avoid duplicating the relay set-up

I'm confused with the Piaa highs 12Volt+ wire your describing.  The part your describing using the park light to trigger the lows on the existing HID harness is cool.  I would use the high beam trigger to operate your Piaa High beams either wired off the factory harness if wattage allows you to without overloading the factory harness, or with another upgraded harness.  Try to keep your systems simple and isolated if possible. 

later Brock

Hmmm.  I thought this was getting too easy - And I was going to begin diggin into it in a few minutes.  The Upgraded harness is connected DIRECTLY to the oem harness in a plug and play fashion,  It provides direct battery power that's fused and through separate relays.  In our idea before my last brainstorm, we were connecting the parking light 12v to a realy to kick 1HID and then do the same on the other side.  I've seen a couple of schematics that have 1 relay used but both HID's fused before and after the relay.  Then we were going to use the 12V Piaa to the UPGRADED High Beam leg.  So, technically, the HID's wold be off of the existing upgraded harness and esentially re-wired.  The Piaa's WOULD use th upgraded harness.

After thinking that through with the relays and wiring - I thought I would try and flip it by using the Upgraded Harness for the HID's as is, but disconnect it from the OEM harness (still receiving the 12V trigger off of the parking lights) and then it WOULD be isolated.

Then, the 12V+ from the piaa's CAN go to the OLD OEM High beam trigger through ONE relay and fuse.  That way, the HID's would come on with the parking lights using the upgraded H4 Harness that's been disconnected from the OEM harness AND the HIGH Beam Piaa's would be controlled from the EXISTING High Beam Switch / Flash To Pass Swithch through the ORIGINAL OEM harness via a relay/fuse.

Am I crazy, or is this the ABSOLUTE easiest way to pull this off.  I think it may be!

Please let me know as soon as you can - my hope is to start within minutes!  Rick

Update:

I took the 12V hot side of the parking lights directly to the input of the upgraded harness' low beam (Disconnected it from the OEM harness completely) and tested one side and it works on OEM switch parking lights AND on Head lights - PERFECT!

Then, I ran the PIAA 12V+ lead to the OEM HIGH Beam harness and the Flash to Pass AND High Beams work perfect and are totally independent of the HID's! I (at this point) have NO additional relays OR fuses since I don't think I really need them, right?

The Upgraded Harness is protected with relays AND fuses and the PIAA's are on minimally and are getting power from the OEM harness and the wattage is identical to Stock Headlamps @ 55 watts/side. Am I ok with this? I have not tried HID #2 yet … still in test mode - but this SEEMS to be PERFECT!

Comments?

Thanks, Rick!

Brock,

OK…

So, here’s how it ended up: My parking lights will now control my HID’s, and my Flash-To-Pass and High Beam are hooked up to my PIAA’s via the column stalk. EXACTLY how I wanted it and FUNCTIONING … at least during my minute or two testing.

I took the 12V+ from the parking lights DIRECTLY to the Low Beam INPUT wire of my upgraded/fused/relayed harness that gets power DIRECTLY from the battery. I disconnected the OEM socket from the Upgraded harness so it is completely independent now. It was initially getting the 12V+ from the OEM socket via the dash mounted headlight switch. I did not use ANY relays or ANY additional fuses since the upgraded harness has both already. Am I correct in assuming this?

Then, I ran the PIAA 12V+ to the original OEM High Beam socket – also without ANY fuse or relay since the current draw should be that of the originals: 55 watts(ish). Am I correct in assuming that this is also OK?

I REALLY don’t want to do anything else with regard to wiring and relays and fuses and soldering and shrink tube/tape stuff if I don’t ABSOLUTELY need to, you know what I mean?

Thanks again for all of your assistance throughout my "little project" and I look forward to your thoughts on the outcome!

Rick

Mike,

Thanks.  That sound a bit over my head ... but perhaps manageable.  I was able to solve my final issue of my HID's "pulsing" along with my parking lights.  I used another relay off of SWITCHED hot to break that connection between my parking lights and my low beam grigger for my HID's.  Now, when my car is OFF - my headlights will not work - which I'm fine with.  And, when my alarm "chirps" and "flashes" to confirm arm/disarm - ONLY the parking lights flash as initially installed.

If you read my early threads ... the problem sort of changed mid-way through.  First my issue was that I was losing my High Beam function since I added HID's.  I wanted a way to keep them on WHILE using the FTP or High Beams ON so as not to freak them out with the power surge.  It's an interesting read and I did it for much less $$$ than I was initially thinking about!

Thanks for looking at it and let me know your thoughts after you read through them - if you have the time.

Rick