2nd Starter Wire in Nissans Does What?

I've done r/s unit installs on about 6 Nissans so far .. and I'm actually now curious -- what does the SECOND STARTER wire actually energize ...

I've heard various things the second stater wire might do is 1) fuel injectors  2) cold sensor  3) starter solenoid  4) coil packs...

I've done an extensive search on the forum already -- so if I missed it, sorry if re-post.

Thanks!

Hmmm..that is an interesting question..I am sure someone out there knows. All I know is that it needs to be energized to remote start the vehicle.

If I had to make an educated guess I would think the 2nd start wire goes a control module..perhaps an ecm or bcm..the ignition wires are used for fuel injectors/coil packs etc...as far as cold sensor I guess it is possible but the wire would still be activated weather cold or hot so I don't really see the sense in the factory using a seperate start wire for this..although I really don't see any sense in about 95% of the things the factory does these days, especially with the electrical systems.

ringojam wrote:

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It is used for the cold start sensor,

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Ok... but what does the cold start sensor in turn do???  Does it... increase the current going to the car starter itself (because the engine oil and tranny fluid is like jelly)??

But even if the vehicle is warm..that wire still sends voltage when the key is in the crank position. Does this sensor draw that much current where it really needs its own wire?[sacastic] Or is this just another example of "overengineering" just for the sake of overengineering? Afterall I have owned many vehicles that started fine in the cold with only one crank wire. But like I stated earlier....it just makes no sense but something we simply work around. As long as I can get the vehicle to remote start I am fine with it.

As far as the new Chryslers yes...but not only is it a second starter...but that SAME wire is also an accessory, you gotta love it.

Kidding aside..it would have nothing to do with sending more juice to the starter. The starter is connected to the battery. The "crank" wire from the ignition switch goes to the starter relay or solinoid if you prefer.

That 2nd starter wire must have some function. I have heard from others also that it is for cold start but knowing that in itself does not really answer the question of "why???"

Anyone actually know since I am also curious now. Thanks. If it is for a flux capacitor perhaps the Delorians also used a second starter wire but it also ran on garbage.

Here's how the cold start valve/thermo time switch works:

The thermo-time switch has a metal contact arm inside which is wrapped with a heating element. When it's cold, the arm contacts a ground connection. When you turn the key to start (the cold start valve ALWAYS receives power when the key is in start, and ONLY when the key is in the start position -- temperature is irrelevant as far as the cold start valve itself is concerned) 12v is sent to the cold start valve. If the thermo-time switch is cold, then the thermo-time switch grounds the cold start valve, allowing it to inject fuel. When the key is "on" the heating element in the thermo-time switch is warming up and slowly bending the contact arm, and so once it gets warm enough, it breaks contact and no longer grounds the cold start valve, shutting it off.

However, this applies only when cranking. The cold start valve never receives 12v when the engine is running, i.e. when the key is in the "on" position, only when the key is in the "start" position. So, to answer your question, no, the cold start valve is probably not staying on, unless you've got some weird wiring.

And the thermo-time switch does not supply 12v to the cold start valve, it merely supplies a ground for the cold start valve.

I looked through several Nissan/Infiniti service manuals and couldn't find any reference to the 2nd starter wire.  It isn't listed in the power/ground diagram of the car that has all the other ignition/accessory/starter wires on it.

However, I did notice that the DRL system found on Canadian Nissan's is reset by the 2nd starter every time the car is started.  This circuit is left off of UDM vehicles though.

Interesting.....

I'm not sure the cold start valve is totally accurate.  Where is it injecting this extra fuel?  During cranking, modern day Nissans batch inject/fire during cranking, so I don't think extra fuel would be beneficial when its cold.

I'll look through the manual for a cold start valve though and see if I can find out anything else about it.

With copper prices soaring perhaps they will get rid of the 2nd starter and use one starter wire like almost everyone else.

But anyhow still seems to be some mystery to this.

If there was a 'cold start injector' on a newer Nissan vehicle I'm 99% positive it would have made it in to the service manual.  The only year listed on that page is somthing about a '77 Westy. 

I don't doubt that this technology was used on cars, I just have a hard time believing Nissan is using it today, without documenting it in their service manuals!

I'm going to make some posts on some Nissan specific forums and see if I can get any answer.

It's interesting .. clearly it does something, b/c people have reported on this forum that their Nissan will not remote start appropriately in the cold  -- some investigation is done... and they discover the 2nd start wire has not been supplied +12volts.

I'll be VERY interested to know what it actually does, thanks for these replies and the "investigation effort."

<if the Delorian DID in fact have a 3rd starter wire.. it must have been for the flux capacitor... w/o a doubt -- I'll email Delorian (if he's still alive) and see what the verdict on that is...>

[IMG]https://img.photobucket.com /albums/v374/DcMaN341/ secstartermaxima.jpg[/IMG]

If you didnt hook up heres a diagram on how to hook up the second starter wire that i made.

One of these days, when its a bit warmer in my garage, I'll play around a little with the 2nd starter wire on my G35 coupe.  I would be interested to know if the starter will crank if you energize the 2nd wire (I read somewhere that it shouldn't, but I would like to verify).  I would also like to check out the size in relationship to the first starter wire.

I've been thinking about this quite a bit and I still can't figure out where it would go and what function it would provide that isn't already covered another way. 

at least on the 1997 Maxima .. the primary starter wire (OEM) seemed to be about 10 gauge .. whereas the second starter wire seemed to be about 12 gauge -- which would make sense if we hypothesize that the second start is just energizing a sensor or cold valve, whereas the primary starter wire is actually conducting more current to energize the OEM engine starter.

Lemme know what you find out.

With electronic fuel injection though you wouldn't need any extra sensors, valves, or injectors.  The ECU already has the intake temp, which would be more accurate and more reliable then a bimetallic strip.  The ECU also knows when the car is cranking based on the frequency of the crank angle sensor (the same way remote starts monitor tach to know when the car has started). 

I was able to find a reference to the wire in a G35 service manual.  It shows it on terminal 5 of the ignition harness and then it goes to fuse 9.  Fuse 9 is for the daylight running lights, which US spec cars don't have.  Nothin else is shown on that fuse.

When I get home I'm going to cut the 2nd starter wire and find out what happens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   :)

Regardless if the vehicle cranks or not by cutting the 2nd starter wire alone still really doesn't explain why the vehicle requires one. However, I strongly feel that the vehicle would not crank if you powered up the 2nd starter wire alone, especially if it is of a smaller ga. then the 1st. I have not read a service manual on this but bet it's correct. Still curious if anyone can locate documentation on the "what" and "why" for the 2nd starter is without guessing or assumptions.

But since it seems this 2nd starter wire is required to be connected when doing a remote start there is another easy way to do it with a relay if your particular unit does not have a dedicated 2nd starter output wire. Although most RS units today should have one you never know with some of the cheaper "no name" brands.

30 to 12v+ constant fused

85 to ground

86 tapped off the crank output wire of RS unit (still leave connected to the main starter wire of the vehicle)

87 to 2nd start wire of vehicle

87a not used

Well, if people are having issues remote starting Nissans when they are cold because they arn't hooking up the 2nd starter wire then logically you should have issues starting it with the key if you unhook the 2nd starter wire!   :)

Are you guys sure the second start wire doesn't provide more power to the actual OEM engine starter or the engine starter's solenoid?

If the second starter wire, powered up independently, causes "clicking" from relays .. it must relay significantly more current to whatever it supplies than the actual gauge of the 2nd starter wire would have us believe.

So when turning the key, the second starter wire actually gets power BEFORE the 1st starter wire? 

BTW .. what are we calling "COLD" ?? What is technically a COLD engine?

50 degrees or below? 40, 30, 20 degrees or below?

This '97 Maxima that is haunting me has this WEIRD problem when it sits overnight in EXTREME COLD .. i.e. cold weather below 20 degrees. (if it's25 degrees or higher, it'll start fine .. no problem):

- when you hit the start button -- the car chirps, and you hear the HIGH pitched revolutions of the OEM starter .. that IS NOT engaged with the flywheel .. the tach then reads that the engine has started, because the starter is spinning so fast, and the car's parking lights come on and stay on and the Accessory and ignition are powered.  I then hold down the start button (on the keyfob) to shut down the r/s .. it chirps twice, shuts down.  Then I press the start button again, and it starts up NO PROBLEM -- starter successfully engages the flywheel .. it doesn't struggle or anything... starts up no problem.

Now .. when I was having this issue, I had the 2nd start output of the Ultrastart r/s brain triggering another SPDT relay that powered the 2nd starter wire with fused 12volts directly from the battery.  So I was thinking, perhaps the second starter wire (which in the remote starter situation is getting powered AFTER the 1st starter wire) is in charge of powering the Starter solenoid to help the starter pinion engage the flywheel?

So this was next resolution -- I JUMPED the OEM first starter wire and second starter wire .. and so far it has not replicated the problem -- but I am waiting for another very cold (i.e. less than 20 degree) day to evaluate what the remote start does.

Soooooo confused.

On that vehicle the ignition switch is mechanical so I can't see how either crank wire is getting power at different times..simply impossible..well who knows actually..it just doesn't make sense..as does what "cold start" really means...and the original mystery as well which is what this wire does..why it does it..and where it goes to.

Anyone know yet???

We may figure out how to build a Perpetual Motion Machine and defy all laws of physics therein before we figure out what this mysterious second starter wire does...

Wonder if any of you guys know a master tech at a Nissan/infiniti dealership we can email ..

I, too, am intriqued by this second starter wire.  Just got off the phone with a tech at a local nissan dealership, who said that there are inhibitor relays (basically NSS) that it goes into.  He is faxing the the starting circuit diagram for a 96 Sentra, which also has the 2nd starter wire.  I will post up again in a little bit to show my findings.

peterubers wrote:

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- when you hit the start button -- the car chirps, and you hear the HIGH pitched revolutions of the OEM starter .. that IS NOT engaged with the flywheel .. the tach then reads that the engine has started, because the starter is spinning so fast, and the car's parking lights come on and stay on and the Accessory and ignition are powered.  I then hold down the start button (on the keyfob) to shut down the r/s .. it chirps twice, shuts down.  Then I press the start button again, and it starts up NO PROBLEM -- starter successfully engages the flywheel .. it doesn't struggle or anything... starts up no problem.

Now .. when I was having this issue, I had

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How is the tach reading the RPM of the starter?  If the starter is free spinning (roughly 2,800 RPM) the motor won't be spinning.  If the motor isn't spinning then the distributor/crank won't be spinning, so no tach signal would be generated. 

Where did you hook the tach up at?

As stated before, the starter is actually wire directly to the battery, so I don't see how the 2nd start wire would provide more current to it.

KPierson -- interesting point --

I'm tapping into the tach via the ECM wire .. it's a GREEN / WHITE wire. 

I never VMM'd that wire .. I just assumed it was the tach wire -- perhaps I've been using the voltage sense this entire time

Should I just get the tach from the injector?

With Ultrastarters .. there is not way to know that the device has been successfully programmed to tach sensing mode or voltage sense (tachless mode).  After you install the r/s brain, you're instructed to start the car with the key and wait approx 30-35 seconds -- the car will then chirp 5 times and the parking lights will blink this many times to indicate successful tach/voltage sense. 

Maybe this entire time I've been using voltage sense and on extremely cold days .. this is the problem with my starts -- possible?

I wouldn't think voltage sense would work either!  Your starter pulls about 90A when free spinning.  This will cause your voltage to drop quite a bit.

Either way, tach or voltage, after a few seconds of the car not running it should realize that the vehicle has stalled or shut off and should kill the ignition!

Scratch that .. just re-read the install manual --

"If a proper tach signal was not detected the LEDs will not come "ON" .. "

wow, i always just looked for the parking lights to blink and horn to chirp 5 times... i never looked at the LED's on the antenna.

I had a thought a bit ago, I wonder if the Maxima's 2nd starter wire is completely differnet then the Inifiniti G35/Nissan 350Z 2nd starter wire.  I only have service manuals for G35s and 350Zs.  I don't think I've ever read about 2nd starter issues on either of these cars.  Maybe that is where the difference is!

What's the best place to snag the tach signal on a 1997 Max ... i want to try and injector wire or ignition coil --- what color wire would this be? Thanks

Perhaps there is a difference b/w the Maxima's second start wire .. ?

"HamiltonAudio" had this to say in another thread: (referring to a 1995 Maxima)

"yep, the reason the car is hard to start in the cold is the second crank wire powers a cold-start-injector....we learned this one the hard way years ago with nissans starting like a dodge diesel in the cold  :)  Autostarts do provide a 5th high current relay that can be configured for either 2nd ignition or 2nd crank which is nice...so we can't say ALL starters have only 1 crank wire  :)  b"

reference: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay /forum_posts.asp?tid=22449& KW=maxima+tach&PN=0&tpn=4

from the starting system diagram my buddy sent me from Nissan, only one wire (in the Sentra - BLACK / YELLOW) runs directly to the starter.  The Second Start wire (BLACK/ blue) runs into a series of inhibitor switches, and the theft lock/theft warning relays. 

That being said, I still have no idea what the second starter wire really does.

Even if the vehicle used a carb....if a 2nd start wire was used for some kind of cold start injector...what if the engine was warm?  In other words if the "injector" or whatever is powered from this 2nd start wire is activated every time the vehicle is cranked...why would it need a "cold crank" wire?

Most vehicles seem to start fine in all weather conditions with a single start wire..unless of course it has problems or a bad battery...so once again we must ask...why some vehicles require this 2nd wire...it's eating at me..lol

What do "inhibitor relays" do?

In the 'injector' case there was a bimetalic temperature switch AFTER the the igntion switch.  So, the wire would be hot every time you crank, but it would only power the injector of the switch was cold enough to be closed.

Inhibitor relays are relays that would prevent the car from starting, and are typically safetys.  Low oil pressure, high coolant temp, etc., would be considered inhibits.

So .. doesn't that definitely answer the question?  The Second Starter wire powers these inhibitor relays?

But i guess, then, what's that have to do with a cold engine vs. a warm/hot one?

!@#$@#!!%#$%#@$

rudydapump wrote:

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absolutely nothing.  I was surprised when I got the schematic for it.  It just runs into a series of inhibitor relays, for theft lock and other warnings.  Was kinda disappointed as well, thought there might be a small furry animal there doing something, and  that would eat apple pieces out of my hand.  I would call him Elmer, and he'd be my friend.

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LOL! I think the fury animal you were hoping to discover is actually connected to the ignition wire.

Yeah, I'm done with this one too -- so I'm just going to end with this:

The second starter wire has NOTHING to do with the cold -- rather, it may have something to do with oil pressure, overheated engine temps, theft deterrent system warning signals, etc.  So I hope to never hear someone on this forum answer the question, "Why doesn't my r/s work in the cold..?" with "b/c you didn't hook up the second starter wire, duh."

I have a different take. It does have to do with cold...basically the jist is that the 2nd start wire always puts out 12v when you turn the key, but...this "inhibitor" relay has some kind of sensor for temperature..so it only activates when cold.

Now although I can't verify this as a fact (perhaps someone will one day) it makes sense since others have stated that the vehicle does not remote start when cold if the second starter wire is not hooked up..but will when warm.

Or perhaps the furry animal in there runs on a tredmill like on the flinstones and the 2nd start wire "zaps" it into motion.

Sorry..I know some of you are sick of this topic..but my morbid curiosity caused me to check the link to the 300zx service manual.

It was not easy but I traced though the cluster&^%k of a blurry maze and found the 2nd start wire (blk / yellow) eventually ends up at the E.C.C.S. (engine control  unit). That was basically the first "guess" that I posted earlier when I assumed it may go to a control module.

But the service manual does not tell the funtion of the wire or why it needs to be a seperate wire. But at least according to the diagram we now know where it goes. As far as the "why" that's still up in the air.

I'm not sick of this topic (as well I shouldn't, I started it, afterall) but I am still frustrated to figure out what this second starter wire does...

So we're at ECCS -- does this have something to do with a cold sensor?  Evolution-UK thinks it does.

I checked the tach signal on my '97 Maxima (Mystery) and it's a good A/C voltage .. and the Ultrastart is indeed lighting up the LED's during "tach learn" indicating that a good tach signal was obtained.  I'm still suspicious that the second starter wire has something to do with this '97 Maxima occassionally not starting in extreme cold weather -- i.e. below 20 degrees -- though it'll start just fine over that temp.

oh... and if the second starter wire is only tripping some inhibitor relays -- why is it such a "bad" idea to "JUMP" the primary and secondar starter wire---

I guess the real question is .. why does the second starter wire need to be energized SEPARATELY .. unless it DOES in fact get engergized BEFORE the primary starter wire... even if it is milliseconds BEFORE the primary starter wire gets energized.

I would say, at this point, the best bet would be to download the '97 Maxima service manual and start  looking through it.  Technology changes drastically change from model to model.

It's possible that the G35/350Z doesn't need the 2nd start wire, while the Maxima/Altima/Sentra/etc. does.

This is my feeling on it. If I was lazy I would say to just hook them together. But....there may be a reason they use a seperate wire so to be on the safe side I would absolutly reccomend to relay isolate the 2nd start wire.

Now as far as the vehicle not starting well when it's cold...as long as you have the second start wire is connected properly (check this with a meter) it should start in any temperature just like it would with the key. The RS only mimicks what the key does so make sure that is what is happening and all should be fine.

As far as if there are different uses for the 2nd start depending on year, model, tecnologies etc.. I guess we are in the dark until a factory automotive electrical engineer can explain this..everything else just seems like assumptions..although very logical ones..we are no dummies..just curious.

I just belted out a letter to Nissan of North America:

Re: Technical question for Nissan Engineering

To Whom It May Concern:

I am an installer of remote starters and car alarms in the Chicago suburban area.  Myself and several of my colleagues (as well as many more internet forum go-ers on < >www.the12volt.com) are very interested to know what the SECOND STARTER wire specifically does when it is energized on routine car starts.  We are also very interested to know why it must be energized separately with a separate wire.  Most of the makes/models we install remote starters in have only one starter wire.  This is a source of much curiosity because when an installer of remote starters neglects to connect the second starter wire to a 12volt supply, the vehicle (i.e. in this case, the Nissan vehicle) does not start appropriately.  Please reply at your convenience, we appreciate any and all information you are willing to share.  Thank you.

Sorry about the previous post -- basically i sent a letter to Nissan asking about the second starter wire -- i'll keep y'all updated as to the result.

Best of luck. I don't think you are aware that the manufacturers generally hate us (installers) and treat us like some kind of enemy. If it was up to them they would void the warranty on every vehicle we even looked at..well they have tried but thankfully the industry fought this and won..at least somewhat, in other words the warranty will not be voided unless it is proven the aftermarket device and/or installation caused the problem..or..if the factory/dealer offers the device installed at no charge. (they are  Basically not very installer friendly to say the least). Also I have noticed (as all installers) that over time they have built vehicles to be less and less installer friendly..things like integrating complex vehicle diagnostics to go thru the stereo system, data bus immobilizers...pain in the butt stuff like that.

I would be very surprised if they are of any help whatsoever but worth a shot I supose, you never know...maybe someone cool at nissan will respond with an answer.

Keep us posted, thanks

I think you speak of the Magnuson-Moss Law --

I actually was not aware that they have this disdain for people like us .. i guess it makes sense (sorta, but sorta doesn't) .. but I hope you're right -- i hope someone young and un-tainted by industry will receive that letter kindly and send some sort of explanation.  Though I doubt it too, we'll see and I'll certainly keep you posted.

Thanks

I don't think they make the cars the way they do to make it harder on installers, its all about making the car cheaper.  If you can integrate modules together you save money.

Not all dealerships hate installers, but most do, and the reason is simple.  Most installers are more knowledgable then dealership mechanics when it comes to the electrical system of cars.  The mechanics can pull crap on ordinary owners, but when someone challanges them, and they are obviously wrong, they get upset.

A perfect example is I had a customer that I installed a radio in in their Dodge Stratus.  Months went by and their cruise control quit working.  They took the car to the Dodge dealer and the dealer told them that the radio caused the problem and that car stereo installers had no business working on cars.

So, they bring the car to me.  I pop the hood and immediately notice the vacuum line running to the cruise control actuator was resting on the exhaust manifold, with a hole burnt right through it!  I called the dealership, asked for the tech that they talked with, and identified myself as the car stereo installer who had no business working on cars.  I then explained to him the problem that I found and asked him if he would be able to fix it.

Hmmm.... maybe thats why they hate us!

Agree to a point..but none of us really know for sure why they do certain things..yes it is most likely about saving money..but I am not talking about sticking modules in the radio..it is the complexity that gets me to think there may be other motives.

I was not so much talking about dealerships as I was the factory but believe me..they both hate us..although I do work with some dealerships that are very good to us I still know at the drop of a hat they would blame us for any and everything they could however obviosly unrelated..well this is no news to any experienced installer,  we have all been there..and are there on a daily basis.

But I notice that the factory does very little to cooperate with the aftermarket which is a shame..I am in touch with the CEA to try to come to some terms with the manufaccturers..they are aware that the industry is hurting bad over this...we can only do our part.

Oh and yes..I was talking about the Magnuson-Moss Law, good call peterubers.

Don't you think there is a new trend, with a big thanks to SEMA and other aftermarket industry pushes, towards welcoming aftermarket industry into a working relationship with big names?  Perhaps we're stuck at companys creating their own in-house aftermarket tuners (i.e. AMG, STI, //S, //M, TRD) etc to keep the "warranty" legitimate -- truth be told, it must be very hard to govern the quality of every single aftermarket mod/mobile installer -- you just can't do that .. too many to govern/inspect/evaluate -- not worth the cost.

Sema is another story..I won't get into that but perhaps someone else will.

My issue is this.....the engineers that design these cars..the CEO's..the executive decision makers....does anyone actually believe they are not aware that people like to change the head units..or have a choice to do so??  They are fully aware....and they mock and laugh at the difficulty we have in changing decks on some vehicles...and the thousands that need to be spent customizing...I would love to see that day when things are "standardized"..imagine RCA's from the factory?? or something similar...and not putting starter cicuits in the factory decks...or check engine systems etc....

The reason some vehicles are starting to come with aux inputs.....to hurt us!!!!  No install required...no need to replace the deck. Trust me if something is not done soon the way things are going we will all be working tire machines and mounting spoilers...sounds fun?? not to me. I know..become a stock broker??  that would really suck..but might be a reality.

OK..so at least we could always add an amp sub....right?  they can't take that away...right???? Well read this post I submitted (link at bottom)..I am sure it will be a while before I get a response to fix this...if ever...and the post I left months ago about doing a remote start in 07 Audi A8 and Q7's......still no response...no one on this entire forum or anywhere can help...I blame the manufacturers for this....Ok I'll get off my soapbox...lol  Not really that mad but dissapointed that I may have to leave the indusry I love and become a plumber..Well we are starting to focus on home theatre (not too happy) but I see no other alternative at present to save our store.

https://www.the12volt.com /installbay/forum_posts.asp? tid=91118&KW=master5

I disagree with you with most of what you said, actually.  The actual amount of people looking to modify their car is an etremely small segment.

The amount of people who buy their cars because of their interior looks is much larger.  If a manufacturer can seamlessly integrate the radio controls with other controls and make the cabin look and feel more inviting they of course are going to go that route over the 'aftermarket possibility' route.  I, for one, would much rather have a seamlessly installed radio in my car and sacrifice the aftermarket.  I love the way the radio in my G35 is installed.  To swap it out it'll cost me over $500 for parts from Japan.  Does it sound great?  No.  Can it be improved upon?  Yes.  But, the improvement in sound can't justify the downgrade in looks, and of course the added chance of theft from people walking by and seeing I have a high dollar unit.

The old saying "To each his own" comes in to play here, and I firmly believe the people looking to upgrade components are in the very very very minority.

You bring up AUX inputs and if you think about it, why were they added?  Because with portable music there is a demand for them.  You also mention preamp outputs.  If there was a demand for them they would have been added a LONG time ago.  The automotive world is driven completely off of demand and features that people WANT.  Unfortunately, especially in higher end cars, 99.9% of the people arn't going to add a wall of 15s in the back!  :)

Oh, and if it makes you feel better, I posted in your thread!!!  I probably wasn't much help, but who knows.

Where did the second starter, part of this thread go? I talked with a friend of mine, (mobil mechanic, and certified) I gave him the "general" idea of what we were talking about. The cold start is OLD HAT....Nissan used to use, what were called cold start injectors. NOT related to a second start wire. The newer nissans, the second starter is used to "communicate" with the ECM, BCM, ECU....whatever you need to call it. It has NOTHING to do with the actual starter on the vehicle. It it used as a "data" wire, if you will. Wich makes secse...if you don't use it, the car WON"T start.

Thats all I know folks......... It's vague at best, but!

I was thinking about the 'off topicness' of this thread yesterday.  Threads on this forum don't typically get this off topic!

The comm line with the ECU would agree with the service manual for the 300ZX that was mentioned.

Yes we got off topic..but after I traced the 2nd start wire to the engine control module  we are still waiting for someone to post it's function.

Anyhow..some may not agree with me ..thats fine...but do you really think someone would not buy a car just because of all the crap packed into the head unit?? This is not about looks as much about the technology making it difficult to impossible to change a deck. Perhaps I am just missing the good old days when newly purchased vehicles went from the showroom floor to the stereo shop where we got to change out everything ....making the customer happy and profiting as well. Afterall..many times the aftermarket equipment is superior in many ways...and cost quite a bit less..but regardless...it's about freedom of choice and the future of an indusrty at stake here.

Although I agree that styling is an issue I am still not convinced that the manufacturers could consider my industry as well. It is not a small percentage of people who want to upgrade..it is at least 50% of my customers...And I hate saying "it can't be done" or " it can be but get ready to mortgage the house to pay for it".

I would think any installer would agree there..if not then they perhaps are not in the "trenches" of the industry as I am every day. I makes me sick to see all the mom and pop stereo shops going out..but it is a reality and if nothing is done we audio installers will need to consider a new career.

Evolution-UK wrote:

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The second starter wire actually gets powered up slightly before the main crank wire when using the key. (not sure if this is relevant)


Gav.

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