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reverse polarity without relay


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oldspark 
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 5:07 AM / IP Logged  
Yeah she waved. I waved back but was dodging the waves - it was a bit rough, but at least no stingrays this time. (I couldn't wave toooo hard, the gf was with me.)
Electrics in Italian machinery? Nah - sorry, I know of no such thing. Sparks and smells - yes. I once replaced the IgCoil's power wire in an Alfa - I only had to recondition about 10 feet of harness. My '72 Ducati has Jap electrics (and yes, THAT Lucas ignition, though it really ain't Lucas (obviously - 'cos it works) - ie RITA).
Transistors - a bit like LEDs R=V/I where V is your rail (less 0.7V if ped.), and I is the output current divided by the gain - aka hFe.
Gains can vary but maybe 100 is a good figure. Power trannies like the 15A 2N3055 have gains of about 30, but smaller 1-5A are say 100-200. But then there are TIP142 & 147 (NPN & PNP)with 10A output and gains over 1,000.
In simple terms, the base resistor is the load resitance/hFe.
IE - you want a base current = load current / hFe.
Ain't FETs good? (For on-off situations - no input current to worry about - just voltage.)
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
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Location: Ohio, United States
Posted: March 02, 2010 at 5:15 AM / IP Logged  

Yes, as Oldspark mentioned, it's really about the Hfe (or gain) of the transistor.  You need to make sure that the current in multiplied by the gain is enough current out.

47K is a lot of resistance and, at 12.6vdc (key off) would limit the current to .2 mA.  For 3A output the gain would then have to be over 11,000! 

The 470 ohm resistance would limit the current to 27mA.  Still a small amount of current, but you would only need a gain of 111 for 3A output.

The idea behind the resistor on the base is to protect the output that drives the transistor and to protect the transistor by limiting the max output (again current in to base * gain = max current out).  However, if your collector transistor is sized properly it will protect the transistor.  It's actually common when using a transistor to drive a relay to drop the collector resistor because the relay will self limit the current.  I typically add a small resistor (ie 22 ohms) just in case, but it technically would be considered overkill.

Kevin Pierson
oldspark 
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 6:35 AM / IP Logged  
Whoaaa - a 22R resistor in series with (say) an 60-80R relay solenoid, thereby dropping the voltage by about 20%..... The relay still works, but the heavy duty purists argue less hold-in current, hence it lets go easier....
Not that I've ever had that problem - and I assure you, the dents in my roof are convex - not concave! (A 12V rated relay may pull in at ~8V and may hold in to ~5V or lower. I'm glad my starter motor relay and solenoid still hold at 5V!!!)
BTW KP and others - I am not arguing or disagreeing, just being the devil's-A -cum- throwing in issues from elsewhere....
So many argue right & wrong. I can't - unless perhaps I know the specifics. (Right or wrong depends often depends on the situation - are we protecting components or making sure a rally car doesn't lose a headlamp?)
Like KP I too prefer the extra "just in case" protection. (Though for say a typical 250mA relay I reckon I'd use a 1A or larger transistor biased for say 500-750mA, or even 1A knowing that if limited to 1A, then any collector (or emitter) load resistance can only reduce that current. In fact I'd probably be more concerned with the suffer diode (the snubber reverse-biased relay-coil diode between #85 to #86).)
Geez you guys mention so many good points and designs.
If only the "lab theorists" experienced the harshness of automotive electrics..... though that was once very well documented (in PI times; ie, pre-Internet).
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 6:44 AM / IP Logged  

Trust me, the collector resistors were added for a reason!  :)

We had a certain product that we sold for a certain car for years with no issues at all (and not output protection).  Then, we expanded the line and picked up a new car from a new manufacturer.  All of a sudden we our warranty returns skyrocketed.  It was the exact same hardware, but now we're all of a sudden seeing high failure rates?

Well, it turned out that the car had 5 wires of the same color in the same area.  One of them was the correct wire, needing a low current ground to activate it.  Anther was a 12vdc constant wire.  It just so happened the 12vdc contant wire was easier to get to, so people were tapping it, activating the product, and letting the magic smoke out.

After that little fiasco we decided that all outputs need to be protected against shorts, regardless of their function.  For relay outputs a 22 ohm resistor is used, for other (-) outputs a 100 ohm or higher is used.  For all the 22 ohm relay outputs a diode is installed in the board to protect the transistor, elminating the need for one on the coil.  Since we made the change 3 or 4 years ago our output failure rate has been virtually zero!

Kevin Pierson
oldspark 
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 8:33 AM / IP Logged  
I well understand!
That too is a classic case where a generic(?) item needs to be more robust than a dedicated item, albeit in this case due to idiots, or perhaps that's "other understandable & typical" reasons.
(I really mean Human Behavior - not idiots. I described my sacrificial anode to Howie - where a mate reverse connected my battery for jump start (to a non-flat battery!) and the fusible link was may battery's +ve lead terminal. I may not have written about it on 12volt, but that mate was no idiot.)
(I'm the idiot for having such mates lol!)
Thanks for explaining that situation - it makes total sense. Of course a rally driver could later bridge the resistor once correct operation was proven.... Everyone is happy, and le$$ broke.
howie ll 
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 11:49 AM / IP Logged  
Thanks for the comments guys and for elucidating me on 470R rather than 47K. Just realised that TIP 142s and 7s were the ones I used. By the way Kevin your product installers were disobeying my rather boring mantra-TEST!
I've noticed lately a lot of manufacturers, Ford and (Euro GM) lately running same coloured wires with different functions in the same section of loom.
mad cow 
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 1:21 PM / IP Logged  
I went out and bought a converter from a local store, not 2 relays like the 451M, it's a tiny IC wrapped in heatshrink. Hopefully it'll work well.
KPierson 
Platinum - Posts: 3,527
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 1:30 PM / IP Logged  

That's a Darlington configuration (two transistors connected in series, total gain = gain1 * gain2) with a gain of 1000.  That'll get you 250mA of current - enough to fire a relay but most likely not an actuator.  If you are only driving the cars OEM relays then you're golden!

Did you ever have any issues running that big of a resistor?

Kevin Pierson
oldspark 
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 5:40 PM / IP Logged  
howie ll wrote:
...lately running same coloured wires with different functions in the same section of loom
Unforgivable! It's almost better not having colors at all.
But that is their intent - making money from DIY.
It used to be that certain cars had different colors for the same wire depending on where in the loom!
The along came the Japanese. (Again - thanks Edwards Demming!)
mad cow 
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Posted: March 02, 2010 at 9:26 PM / IP Logged  
oldspark wrote:
howie ll wrote:
...lately running same coloured wires with different functions in the same section of loom
Unforgivable! It's almost better not having colors at all.
But that is their intent - making money from DIY.
It used to be that certain cars had different colors for the same wire depending on where in the loom!
The along came the Japanese. (Again - thanks Edwards Demming!)
I'm so glad pretty much every wire is a different colour in my car. Except for some reason the rear door trigger and trunk trigger wire are the same colour, stupid BMW.
And the polarity inverter only needs to power the factory relays, lucky for me everything in this car was pre-wired for the alarm, I only had to tap into one wire.
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