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led third brake light relay


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oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: March 04, 2012 at 5:56 PM / IP Logged  
Free advice and web advice etc is legally actionable in many places, but may not have caught on due to lack of test cases - or insufficient publicity given to successful actions, with the possible exception of defamation. (Some fail to understand that despite a lack of specific webland laws, webland has not been excluded from existing laws.)
That doesn't mean success however. In the USA, suit of free advice is more likely to succeed. Here downunder, it would have to be more than "passive" advice (ie, its all in how you word it and what caveats/warnings are applicable).
But in this case, we'd be rewarded and Rostra sued.    
Alas not being a pro I don't know the A & B case, but I'm sure I'll find out... But I know of so many similar examples, and my comments have been directed at a higher level (like web and human devolution) - but f.ex I just covered that on another forum regarding the new medical advice that reversed their previous (stupid, moronic, and obviously yet again untested) advice to isolate babies less than 12 months of age from peanuts for allergy reasons (not choking), and now the "withdrawal" of ADHD medication from minors (Der, how stupid was that?).
Not that I'm one to ramble and get off subject... (But since the OP issue is not solved and closed...)
howie ll 
Pot Metal - Posts: 16,466
Pot Metal spacespace
Joined: January 09, 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: March 05, 2012 at 12:10 AM / IP Logged  
Off topic but I always thought there was something "eugenic/nazi/master race" about ADHD (Ritalin) meds. for kids.
In my youth and I'm sure I'd have been a candidate, I was always in a rush and got bored quickly, the teachers simply sent me outside to play or up to the library for a read, but I suppose these days Health and Safety would say I wasn't being supervised correctly.
As in the previous post aren't we allowed a dash of common sense?
People/companies make mistakes, other people like the poster go on to sites like this for advice.
Hopefully the advice is correct, problems are solved and legal recourses aren't needed.
I don't know that much about them, 30 years ago in Florida I was installing 5 c/controls a week, here I now don't see any, all factory installed. But they appear a competent company, I would like to give them a chance to respond.
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: March 05, 2012 at 3:17 AM / IP Logged  
And I have only learned that Ritalin etc is the new TV - ie, it's been given to kids as a simple way of de-bugging parents! If I had known that years ago, I would have gone ballistic! I thought it was given to genuine cases of ADHD, even though IMO ADHD medications should NEVER have been given to children/minors (at that time).
However, it is with pleasure that I have just read through this entire thread and am happy that - until I specifically asked (and it was only the ambiguity of Bill's previous statement "The original filament bulb is 2 ohms" that caused me to seek confirmation), at no time was it evident that the original brake lights were also LEDs (and IMO it is obvious that I was talking about existing bulbs/filaments, ie, not LEDs - even though that should be irrelevant). The issue was merely the addition of a 3rd brake light which happened to be a LED.
But even then, it was clearly stated that the system worked with the existing brake lights (ie, LEDs), so why the problem with the 3rd? The existing LED lights obviously were sufficient to GND the violet. The 3rd LED could not have diminished that outcome (assuming it was connected in parallel to the existing brake lights - whether LEDs or bulbs).
Whilst that issue is a curiosity that I am unconcerned about (albeit interested in an answer), I cannot for the life of me understand the suggestion for that relay and its connection.
As I wrote, though Howie put it better, mistakes happen... IMO that can be understandable. (My sue or sack comments, though partly serious, were intended as jest.)
But I would like to see a response from Rostra if only to find what solution that relay is for, and if it is correct.
Ah, to 'L with it - I've just researched...
Bill's OP pic is verbatim from Rostra's FAQ, namely "Note: The use of LED tail lights requires a five-function automotive relay to bypass the brake system. LED tail lights do not let the violet wire (cold side of the brake switch) see ground through the brake lights, themselves. Wiring in a relay is as follows:...".
Not that its full context is clear, it seems to sit in the middle of unrelated info.
And FYI, what I call pins or terminals is what Rostra call "function". To me, a five function relay has more than 2 outputs and 2 states. (ha ha)
Another site adds a bit more intelligence:
NOTE: If running LED stop lights or some aftermarket blinker you will need a relay circuit that will supply a ground to the purple wire when stop lights are not energized to allow engagement.
Hence IMO the solution - the Rostra relay diagram is wrong. 85 & 87a go to GND. 86 (& 87) come from the brake switch (cold side) and 30 goes to violet/purple. Hence violet sees GND normally, and assuming a working hot brake switch, +12V when the brake is applied.
Note that the brake lights/LEDs can come from #30 or the brake switch (#86), and I have swapped Rostra's relay coil terminals (85 & 86) IAW normal convention. And 87 can come from +12V.
Of note from other sites:
"The wire going from the relay to the Rostra (Violet) MUST show 12 volts when the brake lights are on, and MUST show ground when the brake lights are off. If either state is not connected then the Rostra will not work correctly; either it will not engage, or worse, it will not disengage."
And from a 2007 install... "One word of caution though. The "experts" at Rostra kept giving me the wrong instructions for wiring the module to the brake lights, transmission & control unit. Once I disregarded their instructions and figured out how it should be wired, it worked fine."
I find it surprising that no one has yet corrected Rostra's diagram. Maybe people don't bother feeding back or complaining?
Or is it that Rostra has a quality issue with its publications and people are too exhausted? They speak of the difficulties installing Rostras and of Audiovox "taking over".
One line from one of Rostra's guides: "Best to add a 6 AWG wire between the Alternator & the engine cover frame to minimize the Electrical Interference as a precautionary step.". I wonder what part of the alternator readers might connect to the engine cover frame which is presumably GND (and should certainly NOT be made hot if it is isolated!)?
And speaking of hot, there were a few comments about +12V feeds getting hot. No wonder if they are shorting the brakelights' +12V to GND IAW the Rostra relay diagram. (What did I say about fire? Oh - I didn't - that was rolled into a concise "...you could have lost a life or a vehicle"... rats!)
Hmmm - 5 function; don't let PURPLE / violet see GND - just short it to GND via the relay instead; connect the alternator (+12V??) to the cover (GND??); ... and the rest I have already forgotten.
Funny - we used to have quality processes, business practices, proof readers, etc.
These budget and (lower level) staff cuts are getting interesting aren't they?
But my "non-professional" and free solution for all is merely to run a resistor (else a bulb) from violet/purple to GND. The resistor power required should not be high (that'd be a BAD design).   
The Rostra CC should have that resistor internally - it is not a lamp checker, it only needs to know when brakes are applied. Hence a mere 4-pin (or 4 function) relay.
(And if designed for both +12V or GND switched brakes, that too is easily designed, else the least common (GND switched) should be the one to require extra fitting - namely the relay but with 86 to +12V and 85 to the downstream side of the brake switch.)
I wonder if someone or some site should be rewarded for pointing out these things BEFORE Rostra cause serious damage or injury?
bbstacker 7072 
Member - Posts: 11
Member spacespace
Joined: March 02, 2012
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posted: March 05, 2012 at 8:59 AM / IP Logged  
I agree. That's really why I was led to include my Rostra responder's title. He was only trying to help me out as far as his position in the company would make him privy to.
Up to this point I had never had one minute's problem with this unit.So, for me, lesson learned.
Think ya' used enough dynamite there, Butch?
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: March 05, 2012 at 4:19 PM / IP Logged  
The big issue is that he SHOULDN'T.
Not only did he NOT help you (he made things worse!), but he exposed Rostra to potential litigation.
I know he was trying to help, but it was wrong. Imagine if he had have lost his job and sent Rostra bankrupt. (How employable would he then be?) And he could also be added to the litigation, hence losing house etc etc.
And it still doesn't solve their seemingly incorrect FAQ diagram.
Nor the difficulties other customers will have as a result.
That diagram needs correction or at least further information - it doesn't even connect Violet to +12V as apparently required when the brakes are applied (ie, the CC won't disengage)!
And their accompanying text is wrong.
If I were Rostra, I'd specify the maximum resistance needed to GND and ditch the relay except as an alternative to a high-power resistor.
But if I were Rostra, that resistor would be inbuilt!! (For GND switched brakes, a simple inverting SPST 4-pin relay can be added.) Thus the majority would never need that FAQ etc.
Hence not only saving paper and customer resources, but modernising the unit for modern vehicles, and not losing lose further market share.
Bill, make Rostra aware of this issue, or at least warn your helper before it is too late.
bbstacker 7072 
Member - Posts: 11
Member spacespace
Joined: March 02, 2012
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posted: March 05, 2012 at 6:30 PM / IP Logged  
Great point. Not that this is a necessary statement, but the Rostra facility is only about two and a half hours away. That was nice to know information. I will send the technical dept. an email. I will tell them my experience and could they explain to me why this is as it is. If one of you guys contact them, they'll fear for their jobs!
Right now I have a bulb in parallel with the third brake light. I have ordered a 50 watt 6 ohm resistor I am going to insert between violet and ground and then remove the other bulb. I already have everything mounted, I just kept blowing a brake fuse every time I hit the brake.
I hope with all the fuss I've created you won't ban me from the site. My goodness, you fellas sure ended up airing a lot of frustration. I have really enjoyed all of your posts. It is a pleasure to get in touch with people from different countries, and not bash each other for one reason or another. Definitely refreshing.
Think ya' used enough dynamite there, Butch?
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: March 05, 2012 at 9:05 PM / IP Logged  
Hey - NO WAY will you get banned.
You may have saved the future world from repeating the same incorrect procedure.
You have stimulated discussion (as if I shouldn't be doing other things... uh-hum). [Oi - that's a compliment! I don't waste my time on (er, walkers, idiots, egotists...) fools. I may have spent (too?) much time on this, but it's been a positive. We including YOU collectively solved you problem; I have another example of devolution; and maybe we will save a life or injury or damage or law suits etc etc.]
You have been polite and attentive.
Crikey, neither of us have directed any sarcasm at you - not even the usually missed subtle narkasm. (Hey Bill, Congratulations!! Honorary Rookie, though we do attract the best here.)
The 50W resistor may not be needed, but if ordered...
That's where Rostra should specify the max Ohmage required (and hence calculate the Wattage = VxV/R - ie, 16V x 16V /R = around 250/R-Ohms Watts which should be reliable for 12V operation (which should rarely exceed 14.5V).
Alternatively it could be found by experimentation - probably using small bulbs and working upwards...
But beware of resistor heat when the brakes are applied or the brake switch is on for long periods! (Bulbs emanate slightly less heat - not that that means they are cooler. But they don't require special ordering and are easy to replace if they fail.)
And despite having a certain onus or obligation to contact Rostra about their potentially hazardous information, I probably won't. Though responsible enough to be under threat of litigation and criminal suits, I doubt that anyone will dare touch me. led third brake light relay - Page 3 -- posted image.   led third brake light relay - Page 3 -- posted image.   led third brake light relay - Page 3 -- posted image.
Besides, there are several stakeholders that would fall before it gets to me... Though maybe a should email them as soon as I can get around to it after my higher hazard-saving priorities.
And you should not be blowing brake fuses every time you hit the brake because the Violet should only connect to GND when the brakes are off. When the brakes are on, violet should see +12V. Hence connect 87 to +12V and 87a to GND. Ignore Rostra's incorrect FAQ 87 & 87a connection!
bbstacker 7072 wrote:
My goodness, you fellas sure ended up airing a lot of frustration.
I thought you meant we aired YOUR frustration, but now I think I get it... led third brake light relay - Page 3 -- posted image.
But yes, I will air... And in my just posted reply on other thread I mentioned a colleague that "takes no prisoners. I never said that I do.... (LOL!)
And being into equality, that goes for you too! Not that I have even considered you as being close to that in this thread. (Friendly jest intended - please!; that's not even to be considered a hint or a warning.)
Bill, I look forward to helping you in anyway I can should you have future problems or questions. (Remember - there are no stupid or dumb questions...)
I may not see them because I'll be running like heck the other way... led third brake light relay - Page 3 -- posted image. led third brake light relay - Page 3 -- posted image.
And BTW - thanks for your appreciation. (And with apols for my airing and verbosity, though they should include some (important?) related stubs.)
And a belated welcome to the12volt!
PS (with some errors above corrected):
I forgot - your last about different countries and no bashing. In my experience, countries and cultures - or rather, people - are all similarly friendly and polite. (But hey - I wrote that we seem to attract the best!)
Some may sound brash and arrogant, but that is often their literal translation of their home language, else cultural differences. (EG - when offered biscuits/cookies here, take them. Don't be polite and decline - you won't be asked again because it is taken for granted that you take if and when you want to. In fact, rarely will Aussies even offer - that is taken for granted.)
But yes, there are bashers etc. Many IMO are merely misunderstandings or misreads - and they really frustrate me - there's a battle where none should exist; they actually agree with each other!
And then the bashers and egotists that are just the individuals you meet anytime, anywhere, etc. (Greetings <unmentionable relative>!)
I try to be polite and understanding else tolerant (...to the count of 3...) yet even I have battled - even after explaining whatever misread or other cause or difference, or me being too stupid to see the same.   
That doesn't mean I'm naive, nor unprepared. I might count to 3 (or higher if their credits have built), but as to feeding prisoners... (LOL).
And I too have reversed or eaten humble pie - sometimes after a mere 2 counts, but sometimes from the front line.
Apols for that - it's just the rambling of one OldFart.
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: March 22, 2012 at 8:45 PM / IP Logged  
Hey bb, how did you go with Rostra - any appropriate response?
Noting that I normally do not take on such tasks - if the person suffering the problem can't prioritise or be bothered, why should I? After all, I'm not going to get caught out by company's and peoples' bad advice - it's all the others that will waste time & money and repair damage etc.
(Though I'm not one to laugh at their loss and anguish. Instead I just suffer with the knowledge of all the crap info out their.)
However I have been using Rostra as an example of the type of bad information published and provided by so-called responsible and reputable sources. (As if well-meaning web posters aren't bad enough!)
Hence IMO due diligence should be exercised - they should be given the chance to respond and clarify, else be made aware and fix the problem.
It may save their future market too.
bbstacker 7072 
Member - Posts: 11
Member spacespace
Joined: March 02, 2012
Location: North Carolina, United States
Posted: March 22, 2012 at 9:15 PM / IP Logged  
Actually, oldspark, I did write them and I told them that every time I hit the brake, my brake light fuse blew. So, I was sent this reply:
The Rostra cruise system reads grounds before the brake switch is
pressed. This will allow the cruise control to set. Since LED lights
do not read ground when the brake switch is a the rest position, a 5
terminal relay is needed. Therefore, by using the attached wiring
diagram, it shows that we want to use the relay to apply ground to the
violet wire (brake negative). To energize the relay, 12 volts will be
provided by the brake switch when pressed and will release ground. The
resistor will not be needed.
Like you, I've had it.I just appreciate everyone's help and I'm glad Rostra wasn't the final say. I hooked that relay up just as they had it, and that fuse blew...that's all I know.
Think ya' used enough dynamite there, Butch?
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: March 23, 2012 at 2:37 AM / IP Logged  
Many many thanks!
I honor your due diligence and effort.
I think I have concluded what idiots they now are, but I'd still like to be proven wrong (and make yet another justified claim for i am an idiot's name).
So they have a crap design (no internal pull-down resistor), still have contradictory info on their diagram, and still have IMO a crap solution - ie, a relay...?
Oh PLEASE, give me a brake (pun very intended!).
I still can't believe that I am correct. Surely I have missed something?   
And whilst I accept that people miss the obvious - ie, re-connect a bulb else whatever (small?) resistor is required as a pull-down - that miss in combination with their other crap IMO beggars disbelief.
Surely I have missed something? (Yes, I know hat's a repeat.)
I think I will approach them - just for my own sanity if nothing else.
I just hope I don't get some "for safety..." explanation. I reckon then I'd hit the roof! (Or have I missed something there as well?)
Geez I hope I end up being severely apologetic for this...
But thanks again for your chase-up and reply. That at least has made me very happy. led third brake light relay - Page 3 -- posted image.
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