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Under pwer vs. Over power


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DYohn 
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Joined: April 22, 2003
Location: Arizona, United States
Posted: March 05, 2005 at 2:55 PM / IP Logged  

Thanks Steven.  Yes, exactly the point I was trying to make.  The power presented to a voice coil is disapated as heat.  The more power for longer durations = more heat whether the power is clipped or not; less cone movement = more heat since it's the cone movement that cools the loudspeaker.  Clipped power = worst of both since not only will it pass too high a voltage, but since it is in effect a DC signal cone movement stops and even more heat results.

Subjecting a speaker to 50KW in a 100msec burst is a completely different thing than the average user "cranking their gains."  Like I said, if the user knows what they are doing, anything is possible!  Under pwer vs. Over power - Page 2 -- posted image.  Thanks for weighing in on this one.

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supradude 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 4:04 PM / IP Logged  
Here is my point, and I think it is what poormanq45 is talking about also. I have seen lots of people buy 70, 100, 150 watt rms amps. They have speakers capable of handling 400 or 500 watts rms. You hook everything up correct and they leave. A couple of days later they hear somebody with the same speakers that they have, but hooked up to a 500 watt or more amp. Usually the first thing they are going to do is "turn up the gain on the amp". This is their quick fix to get more sound. More sound and more distortion. Then they come back and say their system sounds like crap. I've seen this more times than I can remember. Most people think the gain control IS a volume control. That is why they are not installing stereos. They are far more likely to do this with less power rms than with more power. Or at least that is what I think he was talking about.  
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DYohn 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 4:14 PM / IP Logged  
Yes, this happens, people are idiots and they will do this no matter what size gear they have.  Installers should, in my opinion, properly adjust the system and tell the system owner that if they adjust the gains after they leave the shop their warranty is void... or atleast YOU won't honor it.  I've even used red wax on gain and crossover controls to detect if they have been moved.
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kfr01 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 4:24 PM / IP Logged  
Why are they far more likely to do this with less power? Higher amplifier power doesn't make the speakers any more efficient relative to the other speakers in the system.
Here's my take. SPLWannaBe wants his bass VERY HOT compared to the rest of the system. Rather than turning his gain DOWN on the mains, he turns it UP on the subwoofer. This is just dumb. He'd do this regardless of whether he had 10,000 watts or 2.
In sum: not thinking is what makes people more likely to jack up the gain - REGARDLESS OF AMPLIFIER POWER.
Lesson: THINK!
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DYohn 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 5:16 PM / IP Logged  
Steven Kephart 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 7:17 PM / IP Logged  
DYohn wrote:

  Clipped power = worst of both since not only will it pass too high a voltage, but since it is in effect a DC signal cone movement stops and even more heat results.

I wasn't sure if you had read the other thread about this topic we just had.  I had Dan come in and comment about the DC signal and he had some interesting information.  Here's the link: https://www.the12volt.com/installbay/forum_posts.asp?tid=51115&PN=2&tpn=3

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

DYohn 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 8:15 PM / IP Logged  

Ah yes, of course in the strictest sense there is no DC present in even a square wave (100% clipping) since it is a Fourier transform, and even in it's purest, single frequency form is constantly alternating back and forth between two extremes.  What I said was a clipped signal is "in effect" a DC signal, since when the wave is in the flat portion (clipped) it is unchanging like DC.  As the frequency of the signal decreases, and as the tone is more mono-tone (a singal frequency) the net signal approaches two DC signals, one at X+ and one at X-.

My reasoning behind stating that a clipped signal makes an over-power situation worse (or creates an over-power situation like Mr. Wiggins explained in the other thread) is the loudspeaker behaves for each half-cycle as if the signal was DC.  It stops moving at the extreme of the signal-created excursion stroke and thus the heat generated by the current flow must be disipated solely through the conduction and convection properties of the voice coil winding (and mounting system) itself.  There is no air flow created through system movement at these extremes, which can accelerate failure due to heat.  Of course it will as instantaneously as possible shift to the oposite extreme for every other half cycle.

I don't think we're contradicting one another, just looking at the behavior slightly differently.  Dan's more of a pure theoretical engineer; I'm more of an applications guy.

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Poormanq45 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 9:17 PM / IP Logged  
supradude wrote:
Here is my point, and I think it is what poormanq45 is talking about also. I have seen lots of people buy 70, 100, 150 watt rms amps. They have speakers capable of handling 400 or 500 watts rms. You hook everything up correct and they leave. A couple of days later they hear somebody with the same speakers that they have, but hooked up to a 500 watt or more amp. Usually the first thing they are going to do is "turn up the gain on the amp". This is their quick fix to get more sound. More sound and more distortion. Then they come back and say their system sounds like crap. I've seen this more times than I can remember. Most people think the gain control IS a volume control. That is why they are not installing stereos. They are far more likely to do this with less power rms than with more power. Or at least that is what I think he was talking about.
Thank you, that is exactly what I was talking about.
Also, if the gain controls the sensitivity, is there a problem with setting the gain to ~100% and using the Headunit to actaully control the volume and amplifier output? I think this is feasable, but I'm guessing that setting the gain lower is just an added layer of protection, correct?
Steven Kephart: Thanks for your informative post, but I think you kind of belittled me Under pwer vs. Over power - Page 2 -- posted image. . I know that heat is what actually "kills" a voice coil. All it is is a semi-conductor. All semi-conductors have a percentage of inefficieny. This loss usually appears in the form of heat. This increased heat, at a certain point, sort of starts a "snow ball" effect, as the heat increases, the resistance increases, which further increases the heat, and so on until something melts.
DYohn 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 9:44 PM / IP Logged  

The purpose of the gain control is to match the input sensitivity of the amplifier to the output voltage of the head unit.  This is what ALLOWS the HU to control the volume and to have the full range of the amplifier available.  I really suggest you do some reading.  Here's a decent place to start.

A voice coil is NOT a "semi-conductor."  A voice coil is a pure electrical conductor.  It is made from wire.

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Poormanq45 
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Posted: March 05, 2005 at 10:03 PM / IP Logged  
Sorry, I used the wrong term. I used semi-conductor, when I actually meant conductor. i was just thinking of it in reference to a super-conductor with an efficiency of ~%100.
Oops, Edited for stupidity
So then, what happens if you set the amp for a HU that puts out 8vrms, but the HU you're using actually puts out 2vrms?
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