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Impedance/bridging advice for JL e6450?


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stewey 
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Member spacespace
Joined: February 04, 2006
Posted: February 04, 2006 at 2:45 AM / IP Logged  
Hello,
I am new to this forum and am looking for advice on how best to wire up the JL e6450 I just ordered. The configuration I have is a bit unusual. I have four speakers: 2 components for up front and two midbass drivers for the rear-shelf.
The front components will be high-passed around ~100hz. The midbass drivers will be low-passed around ~100hz. They are all 4ohms.
Initially, I had envisioned bridging all six channels of the 6450 to give 3 channels each with 150 watts into 4ohms. I was then going to use one channel for each of the fronts and wire the rears in parallel and use the remaining channel for them. However, further research suggests that this could be unstable because the rears in parallel would result in a 2 ohm load (not recommended when bridging according to the manual).
Can anyone speak to this configuration? Would it be unstable? How seriously should I take the manufacturer's statement that it is not recommended?
Assuming the above configuration is a 'no-go', I came up with an alternative: 45w into each front speaker (one channel each, unbridged), and 150w into each of the rears (two channels each, bridged). How does this sound? Any other ideas?
I don't have a great deal of experience bridgine and wiring speakers in various configurations and was hoping someone here could offer advice.
Thank you!
Stewart.
stevdart 
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Posted: February 04, 2006 at 12:44 PM / IP Logged  

stewey wrote:
The front components will be high-passed around ~100hz. The midbass drivers will be low-passed around ~100hz. They are all 4ohms.

???Rear mids lowpassed at 100 Hz?  Result:  very little range and output in the rears.  I didn't do a search for that amp to look at it, but here's some general advice.  Load the amp at 4 ohms for all speakers, exception can be a SUBwoofer.  Don't expect mids in the rear shelf to do what a subwoofer would do (your post indicates that that's your idea).  If you want fronts and rears in your car, use a 4 channel amp so that each channel powers a speaker (or component set).  Use the high pass crossover for all four speakers;  a SUBwoofer would use a lowpass.  Don't get creative with wiring speakers together so that you can make use of an amplifier;  instead, buy enough amplifiers so that you don't have to get creative.  You can download the tech manual for the amp online.  Read it completely for answers to your basic wiring questions.

A 5-channel amp would provide for 4 speakers and a sub.  A 4 channel and a separate sub amp would do the same.  If no sub is to be used, adjust the high pass crossovers to get as much clean low midbass sound that you can get.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
stewey 
Member - Posts: 6
Member spacespace
Joined: February 04, 2006
Posted: February 04, 2006 at 1:07 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks for the feedback. Allow me to clarify things. I'm not expecting sub-woofer output. The reality is that the front mounting locations result in poor midbass. The drivers I have selected for the rear shelf should play flat down to 50hz, and then drop off below that.
I don't really want rears - I could care less about the rear stage. I'm just interested in propping up the weak midbass I expect to get from the door mounted components. A low-pass at 100hz, might pull the stage rearward somewhat, but I don't expect it to be objectionable.
As for creative wiring, I don't need another amp, the one I have selected is very flexible and more than adequate. I have read the entire manual for the amp. I understand it's specs and typical configurations. The e6450 has six channels and I'm just trying to select the best configuration given the drivers I will be using. It would be obvious if I had a sub instead of two drivers in the rear (just bridge all three), but I set out to build a system without a sub.
Now, back to the questions that I asked? Anyone?
stevdart 
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Posted: February 04, 2006 at 1:17 PM / IP Logged  
You seem offended.  No need to be.  Others might respond to this thread, but I would suggest you include links to the amp and speakers that you're referring to.
Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
stewey 
Member - Posts: 6
Member spacespace
Joined: February 04, 2006
Posted: February 04, 2006 at 1:29 PM / IP Logged  
Sorry, I must have I misinterpreted your post. Thanks for helping. Here we go with links:
JL e6450 - Product Page:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_amps.php?amp_id=262
JL e6450 - Manual [PDF]:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/7530.pdf
JL XR650-CSi (fronts) - Product Page:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_components.php?comp_id=120
JL XR650-CSi (fronts) - Manual [PDF]:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/2502.pdf
JL XR650-CW (rears):
No link here, but the drivers are the same as the ones in the components, so the specs are identical. Ie: 48khz to ? +/- 3db.
stevdart 
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Posted: February 04, 2006 at 3:08 PM / IP Logged  

Some system design notes, and these are just known facts, regardless of how you are interpreting the specs of the equipment:

  • The mid driver does not have a flat response down to 50 Hz.  It is rated at 48 Hz at -3 db, which is considered the lowest useable frequency.  At best, 50 Hz is 3 db down from the reference point, which is around 100 Hz and up.
  • This amp provides a diagram for bridging speakers.  But when bridged, the amp will provide output into 2 ohms per channel.  Note that amps are tested and rated at the higher 4 ohm per channel load.  The specs deteriorate sharply in the higher (than sub) freq ranges when used at 2 ohms.  Sound quality will suffer.
  • The continuous power handling of these speakers is 70 watts.  The output this amp provides at 45 watts into 4 ohms is a good match for them.  Driving the amp at 2 ohms will not only deteriorate the sound quality but be too much power for the speakers (even though it looks like it is very close).  The big difference here will be the sound quality at the 2 ohm output.
  • If bridging were used with this amp, it should be for subwoofer use, not mids and components.  The amp was designed to be versatile enough that you could use a variety of combinations with it.  But still, keep the basics in the forefront of your design:  components and 6.5 mids should be powered at a 4 ohm amp load and both use the high pass filter.

With your choice of JL, the notion that you are looking to get power over quality is not considered to be the issue.  You, instead, should be concerned with how you can get the highest quality output from your equipment.

If you don't have ample damping (Dynamat, etc.) in your front doors, on both panel and door skins, you are losing a lot of potential bass response.

I am not changing anything I said in my initial response.  A 6.5 woofer by any manufacturer has its limitations as far as frequency range goes.  Consider 80 - 90 Hz to be the lowest freq (of equal amplitude to the higher freqs), and that freq response is enhanced with the reinforcement of a subwoofer. 

Use the high passes, load the amp at 4 ohms, damp the front doors and the rear shelf.  And add a subwoofer with enclosure to reinforce the 120 Hz and down response.  This amp will indeed provide for this entire system, as a sub can be bridged to channels 5 and 6.  When this system is set up correctly, you'll find that 45 watts X 4 plus the sub output will provide a very loud, very clean sound.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
stewey 
Member - Posts: 6
Member spacespace
Joined: February 04, 2006
Posted: February 04, 2006 at 3:32 PM / IP Logged  
Ok, thanks again. To be clear, you are advising against bridging this amp because this will drive the speakers at 2ohms and degrade SQ?
So, you would suggest: 1 channel into each of the four speakers at 4 ohms for best performance? No bridging or wiring in parallel? If that is best, then that is what I will do.
With regard to LF response of the 6.5 mid... I think there might be a disconnect between my expectations and your perception of my expectations. It has been my experience that most loudspeakers tail off at ~50hz with similar specs as these XR650's. For example, my Monitor Five's have 58hz-20khz response +/- 2db and sound very nice on the low-end even without a sub. I'm not a huge fan of subs. They have their place and one might even find its way into my system if I opt to revamp, but for now I want to try without.
I will definitely be modding the doors somewhat. I haven't decided how much yet, but there will likely be some cutting, MDF and dampening material involved. Still... the unfortunate reality is that these suckers rattle and don't offer much free air :(
Thanks again, and please confirm the wiring - ie. using only 4 of 6 channels with no bridging.
Thanks!
DYohn 
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Posted: February 04, 2006 at 4:07 PM / IP Logged  

100Hz is, in general, too low for the LP on your mid-bass. assuming I understand your intention of reinforcing the mid-bass.  The mid-bass region is generally considered to be between 80Hz and 320Hz, and some people cross as high as 700Hz although that is well into the normal mid-range band.  I recommend you high-pass your front mains around 240Hz and low-pass your mid-bass at the same.  Or better yet, band-pass your mid-bass between 80Hz and 240Hz and set your subwoofer low pass at 80Hz.

Just my 2-cents.

As far as utilization f amplifier channels, I am not a proponent of bridging channels for the main speakers, and I believe your mid-bass needs to remain in stereo.  One channel to one speaker for best SQ.  (Subs matter far less as they often sound just fine with 25% distortion anyway.)

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stevdart 
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Posted: February 04, 2006 at 4:07 PM / IP Logged  

Yes, wiring confirmed, IMO.  JL would most likely agree to that.

You can't compare a home system, where the driver response is optimised to the enclosure and the performance is in a room environment, to a car speaker that is designed for IB and meant to be used in a car environment.  Not close enough to the same thing to use as reference.  Go ahead and build your system without a sub, do the damping as I suggested, rattling will be gone and bass response improved..but keep in mind that a sub will not overpower your system unless you want it to.  It's all in the design and setup.  SQ car audio systems need a subwoofer.  Just the overlap in the response curves alone will greatly enhance your midbass sound, and you can limit the amplitude and low end sub response as much as you want to.  Design and setup.

Build the box so that it performs well in the worst case scenario and, in return, it will reward you at all times.
stewey 
Member - Posts: 6
Member spacespace
Joined: February 04, 2006
Posted: February 04, 2006 at 4:22 PM / IP Logged  
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I will consider raising the low-pass. The JL has a variable x-over, so I can mess around until I'm happy. My concern about crossing it too high is that the stage will be pulled rearward too much.
I will definitely run one-channel for each driver though. That was the crux of my question because I don't have much experience bridging. My concern is definitely SQ over SPL.
I am optimistic that I can pull off SQ without a sub. Ultimately my ears (and some test tones/spl meter) will be the judge. If it doesn't work out, well then, I might have to give in and go with a sub.
You guys can say 'I told you so' ;)
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