the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
icon

single led blinker/parking without relays


Post ReplyPost New Topic
< Prev Topic Next Topic >
assassin10000 
Member - Posts: 16
Member spacespace
Joined: January 30, 2010
Location: California, United States
Posted: January 30, 2010 at 1:15 AM / IP Logged  

Hi, I want to use the single LED in my marker/corner light(s) as both turn signal & blinker. Here's what I'm looking for it to do:

1. Blinker on, Parking off = Blinks.

2. Blinker off, Parking on = On solid.

3. Blinker on, Parking on = Blinks.

Now, here's the difficult part, I don't want to use relays! Instead what I want to do is use a few small JFET transistors (NTE457), diodes, & resistors. for a more compact setup. From what I understand JFET transistors are normally 'on' and turn off once voltage is applied to the 'base'.

Here's what I've come up with, but I'm not yet sure on the resistor needed.

single led blinker/parking without relays -- posted image.

OR, if possible using an Integrated Circuit, NTE858M which has dual JFET's... Really not sure about this one though.

I do NOT mind that the blink is 'offset' when the parking light is on.

Thanks,

Andrew

oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: January 30, 2010 at 11:12 AM / IP Logged  
Alas the logic is flawed.
The LED will be on whenever the parkers are on. (If not powered from the blinker when on, then from park when the blinker is off.)
With these "blinker-overrides (other things)" circuitry, there needs to be a delay function. (Unless you access the selector switch - but that involves more complex switching, but delay circuits.)
Or have I analysed the circuit wrong? (I hate "physical" diagrams!)
assassin10000 
Member - Posts: 16
Member spacespace
Joined: January 30, 2010
Location: California, United States
Posted: January 30, 2010 at 4:34 PM / IP Logged  
I think you may have read it wrong. Looking at the diagram think of this:
D = 87a
S = 30
G = 85&86
On a relay.
Does that make it easier for you to comprehend?
Link to the jfet transistor:
NTE 457
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: January 30, 2010 at 7:36 PM / IP Logged  
Ha! Thanks - but I've only recently started using relay "labels" for the sake of others.
But as I have drawn it, it's almost a flip-flop circuit...
VIZ:
2 "parallel" JFETs with joined D
Each G connected to the other's S (via resistors)
LED to ground from D
With one S from Park, the other from Blinker (both via diodes).   
Yep - that checks with with your diagram. (??)
So...
Blinker off & Park is on hence supplying LED thru its S-D, and turning off Blinker FET. (LED is ON)
Blinker on & Park on - aha - both are off... was that my error?
Checking the rest....
Both off means both JFETs open, but no power so LED off.
Blink on & Park off is as first above, but LED powered thru Blinker's S-D.
So if Parkers are on, the LED blinking is inverted (big deal!).
And if you sit there and turn the Parkers on & off in phase with the blinker, then the LED is continuously off, else on...
See - I told you it was flawed. (LOL!!)
Now I'm sitting here thinking htf have I missed this circuit before?! (My misdiagnosis above doesn't bug me....)
And I recall your original statement to which I was going to respond "no - they are off until turned on".... But JFETs..... Dammit! I was taught JFETs in school! But the only FET circits I've designed have been recently using MOSFETs etc. And yes - JFETs are "on until turned off" - aka an NC relay (30-87a) as you said!
Yet another smartA Rookie that doesn't need help!
THANKS!
So the issue then is the resistor which need to be large enough so as to NOT burn out the FET due to G-D current, but small enough to pull down to somewhere under 6V G-S (2V? 1V?) - I'll need to check....
And that the FET is handling (say) 20mA....
Yes?
(I'll leave it for a while. I've been saying I need to cool off - today is high-30s (C - ~100F?). Besides, I need to rejoice over a "common reverse & indicator bulb issue" that (er, um...) I have just solved. No RC delays, no DPDT relays. And it is a straight plug-in (interception) - not a "rewire". FIGJAM!
Or rather FYGJAM!!)
single led blinker/parking without relays -- posted image. but really single led blinker/parking without relays -- posted image.
assassin10000 
Member - Posts: 16
Member spacespace
Joined: January 30, 2010
Location: California, United States
Posted: January 30, 2010 at 10:36 PM / IP Logged  
Sounds like you've got the idea behind my diagram now single led blinker/parking without relays -- posted image.
I think the last thing to get figured out is what resistor to use to cross the opposing S/G terminals/triggers. The max off voltage is 6v, min is about .6v; so at this point I'm thinking dropping it in the 2-3v range with an input that varies from 11.5-14.5v is ideal.
IIRC, to get around 6v for an LED you'd use a 470 ohm resistor at .02 amp. And according to the site I bought them from (5 years ago) the wide angle LED (168/194 wedge style base) is rated around .015 amp (Others list the same style at .018 amp).
12.5v - 2.5v = 10v drop needed
10/.015 = 667 ohm
So, 680 ohm is the closest standard size resistor. That should do it right? Or do I need to treat the resistor as if its on a parallel circuit and calculate off the JFET? I'm not sure what the value would be then.
Andrew
oldspark 
Gold - Posts: 4,913
Gold spacespace
Joined: November 03, 2008
Location: Australia
Posted: January 31, 2010 at 12:19 AM / IP Logged  
680 is about right for a 20mA off a 12V system.
It could well be lower because of Rds (less Igd??).
Alas I broke out my old Sedra & Smith and started to read...
But I still want to have a swim. At least I should have more time - I don't think I'll be seeing the girlf for a while. (Some people just ain't as enthused as I am! Others get their priorities wrong.)
I merely considered that if the FET's current is a problem - ie, I want to drive 2A bulbs - it's so simple to add a $2 MOSFET...
But, back to the LED resistors. I don't think we can have both JFETs on - that avoids parallel DS resistances.
So it's just Rds in series with a series LED resistance, but add in any G current too.
But if the JFETs could be configured for constant current - ie, 20mA.....
I'll get back to you....
But honestly, it can't be this simple...????
assassin10000 
Member - Posts: 16
Member spacespace
Joined: January 30, 2010
Location: California, United States
Posted: January 31, 2010 at 4:39 AM / IP Logged  

oldspark wrote:
But, back to the LED resistors. I don't think we can have both JFETs on - that avoids parallel DS resistances.

So it's just Rds in series with a series LED resistance, but add in any G current too.

But if the JFETs could be configured for constant current - ie, 20mA.....

I'll get back to you....

But honestly, it can't be this simple...????

Well, that's why it's configured so that if one see's voltage, it shuts the other off. The response time should be high enough that there won't be any issues there either (or so I'm guessing).

When both JFET's happen to be on... both the blinker & parking are off. So it's a non-issue (again, so I 'think'). I'm unsure what the actual current for 'G' is, but according to NTE (the MFG) it's max rating is .010 amps, and it will probably be a lot less (guessing). 

It may be a simple circuit, but I have spent 2-3 days doing research on available semi-conductors to 'find' the JFET's and get a basic understanding of how they work... and even then I didn't come up with the above idea immediately. I spent a solid day trying to figure something out and came up with nothing but either a 3 relay setup (for both L&R) or 4 relays (2ea side). This came to me the following day after I gave up for the night.

Andrew

assassin10000 
Member - Posts: 16
Member spacespace
Joined: January 30, 2010
Location: California, United States
Posted: January 31, 2010 at 5:39 AM / IP Logged  

Again, just spent some time looking over NTE's info/site.

http://nteinc.com/Web_pgs/FET.html & http://www.nteinc.com/specs/400to499/pdf/nte457.pdf

Near as I can tell, the current/amps necessary to bring DS voltage to zero varies from .001-.005 amps. To quote NTE, "Drain Current Zero - Gate Min-Max (mA) : 1-5. And average is 3 mA." Leaving me to think total amps necessary is going to range from .016 A (min) - .023 A (max).

Just had another thought, do I need to take into account the resistor/resistance that's built into the wedge style LED? I just verified they are constructed with both a resistor and additional diode for safety. Measured 447 ohms with a multi-meter, which is right at the 5% tolerance limit of the standard 470 ohm resistors used when wiring in single LED's.

Or maybe not, since the Transistor that is ON is setup with the resistor & GD in parallel with the one being shut OFF. That would mean it's not a problem,  correct? As both the LED & the GD seeing voltage will be receiving 12v due to the parallel circuit there. Wouldn't that mean the current would be split on the two legs then recombine where the two D's combine and voltage would remain as 12v for both (If I'm thinking about this right).

Andrew

yakuzahi 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: October 30, 2010
Location: New York, United States
Posted: October 30, 2010 at 8:56 PM / IP Logged  
The "D" "G" "S" stand for the: NTE 457
and not for 5 Leg relay!
Z@)-)i
yakuzahi 
Member - Posts: 7
Member spacespace
Joined: October 30, 2010
Location: New York, United States
Posted: October 30, 2010 at 8:58 PM / IP Logged  
assassin10000 wrote:
I think you may have read it wrong. Looking at the diagram think of this:
D = 87a
S = 30
G = 85&86
On a relay.
Does that make it easier for you to comprehend?
Link to the jfet transistor:
NTE 457
The "D" "G" "S" stand for the: NTE 457
and not for 5 Leg relay!
Z@)-)i
Page of 2

  Printable version Printable version Post ReplyPost New Topic
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

  •  
Search the12volt.com
Follow the12volt.com Follow the12volt.com on Facebook
Tuesday, May 7, 2024 • Copyright © 1999-2024 the12volt.com, All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy & Use of Cookies
Disclaimer: *All information on this site ( the12volt.com ) is provided "as is" without any warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, including but not limited to fitness for a particular use. Any user assumes the entire risk as to the accuracy and use of this information. Please verify all wire colors and diagrams before applying any information.

Secured by Sectigo
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer
Support the12volt.com
Top
the12volt.com spacer
the12volt.com spacer